Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[chortles 263]

@ Greenfist: Thing is, what you declare to be "not too detailed, but pointless" does in fact seem to meet the threshold of "more distinct enough than sway/breathing noises to be useful" in the way that we were looking for... not ten different states, but certainly something more than the vagueness of sway/breathing noises and specifically visual.

Incidental note re: "slowed down jogging" -- in VBS3 the walk/run speeds are actually dynamically to keep Fatigue at or below 70%, while there's a regular (Wx2) sprint that goes off at 70% Fatigue and an all-out (RCtrl+W) sprint that can pass that threshold, but interestingly enough is seemingly one of the only ways (other than walking up a sufficiently steep slope) to go above 70%, much less risk 100% Fatigue.

[twisted 128]

That's why they made the Bootcamp. Maybe they should just add one more tutorial for the fatigue. :D

That's a good idea, including how weight affects you and how to regain energy efficiently. And reminding them to try not to load up with all the superest weapons and sprint around with heavy vest, full backpack etc

How fatigued you are is less important than how you manage it.

[Greenfist 1863]

@ Greenfist: Thing is, what you declare to be "not too detailed, but pointless" does in fact seem to meet the threshold of "more distinct enough than sway/breathing noises to be useful" in the way that we were looking for... not ten different states, but certainly something more than the vagueness of sway/breathing noises and specifically visual.

Are you trying to say that people can't determine their fatigue level with a precision of 3 states by the means of the current visual and auditory cues? I would find that very hard to believe.

[machineabuse 11]

It's also unfortunate that fatigue is difficult to assess when you have stopped to rest. How rested are you, who knows? You can only hope you've stayed still long enough but good luck paying attention to that while you're being shot at.

[TSAndrey 1]

It's also unfortunate that fatigue is difficult to assess when you have stopped to rest. How rested are you, who knows? You can only hope you've stayed still long enough but good luck paying attention to that while you're being shot at.

A stamina bar like in Wasteland would be nice. Optional, of course, in case some people don't want it.

[Bouben 3]

And to the people who are arguing that a stamina bar would give an unrealistically detailed depiction of stamina levels: Do you think that this bar gives a very detailed status report?

http://i.imgur.com/XIjkNGu.png

Such a bar would be pointless.

I am for a Shac-Tac-like fatigue bar implemented to the vanilla game. It is absolutely unobtrusive and it does the job well.

[Alwarren 2767]

Arma did always have a learning curve, unlike most games. Learning to manage fatigue is part of that, just as learning to shoot is. Yet, we aren't seriously asking for a crosshair like in War Thunder that tells us were our shots will land, I think everybody agrees that part of the game is learning to shoot without such nonsense.

The same holds true for fatigue. Managing it, recognizing when it is time to rest and when you have some reserves left, is part of the learning process. You might argue that we're playing soldiers that should be aware of such things, but then, real soliders also know how to shoot.

The only thing I agree about is that the current feedback is too weak. But I still think that a stamina bar is not the answer to this, just like we shouldn't have a health bar or a drop marker.

[SilentSpike 84]

It's easy to think you know exactly how tired you are, but in my experience it is actually quite difficult to precisely know how much juice you have left. For runners (as well as soccer, rugby, boxing and I am sure all other sports), it is one of the things that you need alot of experience at, before you can know exactly what your limits are and how you must pace yourself to maximise your potential.

Just two counterpoints to this:

1. These are experienced soldiers who have presumably at least gone through basic training

2. A fatigue bar doesn't have to be too precise. I actually think people have it wrong by suggesting a segmented bar because that makes it too quantifiable (you can see how many segments are left). Whereas a straight up sliding bar leaves it fairly vague (presuming it doesn't show the empty section) and allows players to see the effect of various actions/movement on their fatigue. (What if the bar were to grow with fatigue?)

Are you trying to say that people can't determine their fatigue level with a precision of 3 states by the means of the current visual and auditory cues? I would find that very hard to believe.

The problem with this idea is that it detracts from the current consequences of fatigue, the consequences are fine in my opinion. The problem is that there's no way to quantify how fatigued you are and so no way to compare that with how fatigued you will be (planning) or were (reflecting and learning).

[Varanon 892]

The only thing I agree about is that the current feedback is too weak. But I still think that a stamina bar is not the answer to this, just like we shouldn't have a health bar or a drop marker.

Agreed. My major gripe with any hud element is that it break immersion and is in essence a brute-force method of communicating the state it wants to communicate.

The stance indicator is one such thing as well, but there is no real other method of doing it, so it's a necessary evil. For stamina resp. fatigue, it should be different, the visual and audible feedback *can* communicate the status. This is currently not clear enough. There should be more ways to discern this. For example, when I'm exhausted, I feel wobbly, so in the highest level of exhaustion, it could shake the screen a bit. Or put an audible heartbeat in the background that gets louder and faster with higher fatigue.

If all else fails, the game could resort to having your on-screen character actually complain, like, saying "Geez, I should rest" etc... DayZ does something like that with it's text messages "I feel hungry", "I'm getting soaked" etc..

[enex 11]

Heartbeat could work.I knew I was about to pass about with that blinking and heartbeating in advanced combat environment.

[-Coulum- 35]

1. These are experienced soldiers who have presumably at least gone through basic training

2. A fatigue bar doesn't have to be too precise. I actually think people have it wrong by suggesting a segmented bar because that makes it too quantifiable (you can see how many segments are left). Whereas a straight up sliding bar leaves it fairly vague (presuming it doesn't show the empty section) and allows players to see the effect of various actions/movement on their fatigue. (What if the bar were to grow with fat

You can only do so much in five months of bootcamp. Athletes train years to be in shape and still even they sometimes mistake just what they are/n't capable of.

You a right that a fatigue bar isn't more precise than a rough guess (+/-10%). But even still it seems too numerical to be perfectly realistic.

Overall I would not complain at all if a bar was put in. In fact I would be happy. It would be better than what we have now. But I do think that adding faster occurring effects, that don't actually hamper your abilities (ie Pulsing vignetting where frequency of pulse depend on fatigue), or some sort of icon with variable transparency depending on fatigue would be a more "realistic" solution.

[SilentSpike 84]

I do agree that "show don't tell" (what Varanon describes above) is always a good design philosophy to abide by and that extra indications could help with that. The problem is making such indications quantifiable enough that you can compare them to other degrees of fatigue (which facilitates learning and recognition).

A heartbeat and some shudders could be great if implemented in such a way. My only worry with such a system would be that it sounds quite similar to the current breathing system, which clearly people don't find useful enough (granted, a heartbeat would have tempo which would be easier to recognize).

[St. Jimmy 272]

I would rather change/add some audio clues. But the there are those people who want to.mute all the breathing even though if you're heavily breathing in real life you don't hear other things over that so well.

[froggyluv 2136]

Like the heartbeat suggestion as that did work well in ACE though I think the blinking is a little much as that truly shuts out your gaming world and is imo, much worse than a slight PP effect. Speaking of ACE, for a LONG time they had a brutal punishment of involuntary belly flopping from exhaustion from which, imho, was happening way too easily and often. The current setup feels pretty accurate to me as I'm able to play thru the campaign without suffering many if any penalties by use of common sense movement -I am noticing that the breathing effect doesn't seem to playing as reliably as it does in the VR room but maybe Im mistaken. Either way I'd love the addition of heartbeat.

[SilentSpike 84]

-snip-

True about the athletes - I just meant to say they'd have a better idea than your average joe. Pretty much agree entirely with what you've said here.

[froggyluv 2136]

Edit: ImADumb$$

/14 chars

Edited September 4, 2014 by froggyluv
See Above

[roshnak 41]

Are you trying to say that people can't determine their fatigue level with a precision of 3 states by the means of the current visual and auditory cues? I would find that very hard to believe.

There are times when it is significantly more difficult to do so, such as at night or in pitched battle. This style of bar is obviously not perfect by any means, but even in that state it would allow players to get a rough idea of their fatigue level significantly more quickly than being forced to listen for audio cues.

Obviously the bar I presented was an extreme example, but don't you think there is a middle ground to be found between my extreme example not providing enough feedback and your example of such a bar providing pinpoint accuracy?

Such a bar would be pointless.

I am for a Shac-Tac-like fatigue bar implemented to the vanilla game. It is absolutely unobtrusive and it does the job well.

I am obviously not suggesting that Arma 3 literally use a battery life indicator for representing fatigue levels. The point was that there is no reason to believe that a stamina bar must give an exceptionally accurate report of the player's fatigue state.

The same holds true for fatigue. Managing it, recognizing when it is time to rest and when you have some reserves left, is part of the learning process. You might argue that we're playing soldiers that should be aware of such things, but then, real soliders also know how to shoot.

This is not a good analogy. Shooting is a learned skill. Being able to tell when you are tired or getting tired is not. Why do you assume that the game giving more feedback about when you are feeling tired and how tired you feel would negate the requirement that players learn to manage their stamina?

A But I still think that a stamina bar is not the answer to this, just like we shouldn't have a health bar or a drop marker.

This is also not a good analogy. I don't know what a drop marker is, but a health bar would convey information that people would not have in the real world. In the real world people don't know that they have taken X amount of damage and will die if they are shot Y more times. This is both unrealistic in the amount of awareness that people have of their injury states and in the way that the human body actually works.

I do agree that "show don't tell" (what Varanon describes above) is always a good design philosophy to abide by and that extra indications could help with that.

Maybe, but none of the rest of the game is designed with that philosophy in mind.

Edited September 4, 2014 by roshnak

[Varanon 892]

This is also not a good analogy. I don't know what a drop marker is, but a health bar would convey information that people would not have in the real world.

I would say that you will feel pain much more than you feel fatigue, so I find it slightly hilarious to claim that you would know how tired you are, but not that you have been shot up pretty well.

[Alwarren 2767]

This is not a good analogy. Shooting is a learned skill. Being able to tell when you are tired or getting tired is not. Why do you assume that the game giving more feedback about when you are feeling tired and how tired you feel would negate the requirement that players learn to manage their stamina?

Finding out how far you can go is part of training. Even a guy that is in good shape cannot tell exactly how far he can go on, how long he can go on sprinting. It's a matter of experience. You have to find out. Just like learning to shoot, you have to learn your limits. Especially if you are not used to carry big loads around. So I don't see why this is a bad analogy.

This is also not a good analogy. I don't know what a drop marker is, but a health bar would convey information that people would not have in the real world. In the real world people don't know that they have taken X amount of damage and will die if they are shot Y more times. This is both unrealistic in the amount of awareness that people have of their injury states and in the way that the human body actually works.

A drop marker is a projected point on were the target will hit. If you play a game like War Thunder in arcade mode, it will show you were your shell will impact the ground or the vehicle you are aiming at. No such thing exists in Arma. You have to learn to shoot by observing the environment. Where does your shot land? You only know because you are using tracers, or because you observe the dust clouds.

About health, of course health in computer games is utterly abstract. If it were realistic, you would need to go to hospital for a few week before you can attempt to play again. Obviously not fun. You can pretty much say that taking a hit is a bad thing, and that you can only take two or three at most before you are incapacitated. Like with fatigue, the decision whether you can take another hit or not is muddy at best. Just like shooting and observing dust clouds, getting shot, or fatigue, all of it is part of a learning experience that sets this game apart from most other games out there.

[bad benson 1733]

let's not get carried away about the health thing. this was obviously the essence of roshnak's post..

In the real world people don't know that they have taken X amount of damage and will die if they are shot Y more times.

and it's a very good point and has nothing to do with pain or knowing IF you are hit or not.

i'd also like to highlight this part.

Why do you assume that the game giving more feedback about when you are feeling tired and how tired you feel would negate the requirement that players learn to manage their stamina?

i have to ask again where this kind of opposition against such a simple and useful thing is coming from. why are the same people not up in arms about the detailed vehicle damage HUD, crosshairs or ammo HUD? how is this single HUD element suddenly the tipping point for breaking the immersion?

having said that, i think that immersion is the single most convincing argument that has been presented eventhough it's kind of pointless in the light of what i just said and the fact that arma already has the option to get rid of HUD helpers if you don't like them. why not use that instead of fighting unproportionally passionate for something that is based on your subjective opinion?

i don't care that much about it tbh but i'm baffled that this is the main focus of discussion and the arguments are mostly realism based as if the fatigue system itself is 100% realistic and a HUD would somehow reverse that. nope. not the case.

[defk0n_NL 2]

Like with fatigue, the decision whether you can take another hit or not is muddy at best. Just like shooting and observing dust clouds, getting shot, or fatigue, all of it is part of a learning experience that sets this game apart from most other games out there.

I dont think thats accurate, why do you have a gui for engine and wheel state but not for stamina and armor. Its inconsistent.

They should just add a infantry detail like so:

white to red is damage

white to green is armor.

If we assume that the player is the soldier then from the soldier point of view he knows exactly when he gets fatigued and how heavy his equipment/state of it is.

[roshnak 41]

I would say that you will feel pain much more than you feel fatigue, so I find it slightly hilarious to claim that you would know how tired you are, but not that you have been shot up pretty well.

Pain is not directly linked to injury state in real life. You can be in an enormous amount of pain and in no danger of dying.

Finding out how far you can go is part of training. Even a guy that is in good shape cannot tell exactly how far he can go on, how long he can go on sprinting. It's a matter of experience. You have to find out. Just like learning to shoot, you have to learn your limits. Especially if you are not used to carry big loads around. So I don't see why this is a bad analogy.

You may need experience to know where your breaking point is, but you don't need experience to know when you are tired or even very tired. No one is arguing about scenarios where player is on the verge of passing out, here. We're talking about having a better idea of how weight and movement speeds are affecting our fatigue levels during normal gameplay situations.

Consider the following scenario:

A helicopter crew has crashed and you are en route to rescue them. You're in a hurry because an enemy group is converging on their position. You're nearing the site and want to know if you're going to be able to accurately engage targets when you get there or if you're going to need to take a quick rest before you actually hit the site. Should you really have to stop and look at your sights to see how much they are swaying and listen for heavy breathing in order to figure out how tired you are? Isn't this something you should inherently be aware of? Shouldn't you be able to say, "Yep, I'm getting pretty tired" without stopping to consciously think about it? And what's more interesting about that scenario -- being able to figure out that you are tired, or being smart enough to account for fatigue levels in your battle plan?

I'm not talking about whether or not you're at the precipice of your breaking point, here. What I'm talking about is: are your hands shaking? Does your weapon feel abnormally heavy? Are you breathing heavily? Is your heat pounding in your chest? Are your legs burning? Are these things and the awareness that comes from them accurately portrayed by a breathing sound effect and some vignetting (which is very difficult to impossible to see under poor lighting conditions)?

About health, of course health in computer games is utterly abstract. If it were realistic, you would need to go to hospital for a few week before you can attempt to play again. Obviously not fun. You can pretty much say that taking a hit is a bad thing, and that you can only take two or three at most before you are incapacitated. Like with fatigue, the decision whether you can take another hit or not is muddy at best. Just like shooting and observing dust clouds, getting shot, or fatigue, all of it is part of a learning experience that sets this game apart from most other games out there.

I would argue that a health bar is irrelevant to the argument because you are never expected to make decisions in Arma based on whether or not you can take one more hit. Being shot is always bad and often times fatal in this game. You are never expected or encouraged to think to yourself, "If I cross this street I might get shot, but that's okay because I think that I can take two more shots before I die." It doesn't matter how much health you have left in Arma 3. All that matters is am I injured and, if so, is my injury affecting my ability to run or aim?

By contrast, fatigue state is something that players are constantly encouraged to think about. Fatigue levels influence your choice of movement speed, stance, whether and when to engage an enemy, what position you choose to engage them from, how much you commit to said engagement, etc.

[Alwarren 2767]

I dont think thats accurate, why do you have a gui for engine and wheel state but not for stamina and armor. Its inconsistent.

They should just add a infantry detail like so:

http://i.imgur.com/yCCFY3Y.png

white to red is damage

white to green is armor.

If we assume that the player is the soldier then from the soldier point of view he knows exactly when he gets fatigued and how heavy his equipment/state of it is.

Actually, unless the vehicle has dedicated warning/FAIL lights, they should just remove that stuff. Same with the fuel gauge and all these things. Make the cockpit functional. When I enter my car and some neighbour's kids have flattened a tire, I don't get a warning light either. The vehicle heads up display is artificial, and should be removed. Especially in things like rubber boats.

---------- Post added at 21:22 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------

I'm not talking about whether or not you're at the precipice of your breaking point, here. What I'm talking about is: are your hands shaking? Does your weapon feel abnormally heavy? Are you breathing heavily? Is your heat pounding in your chest? Are your legs burning? Are these things and the awareness that comes from them accurately portrayed by a breathing sound effect and some vignetting (which is very difficult to impossible to see under poor lighting conditions)?

Which is why you need decent audible and visual cues like panting, heartbeat, blurring, etc. But no bar that tells you an arbitrary number.

[defk0n_NL 2]

Actually, unless the vehicle has dedicated warning/FAIL lights, they should just remove that stuff. Same with the fuel gauge and all these things. Make the cockpit functional. When I enter my car and some neighbour's kids have flattened a tire, I don't get a warning light either. The vehicle heads up display is artificial, and should be removed. Especially in things like rubber boats.

In a perfect game i guess we would have engine smoke, leaking fuel, collapsed tires, fuel guage's, those things will just help convey that information in a more visual matter.

Maybe we will someday get those systems also for fatigue like severed limbs, animations based on weight and damage, fatigue animations etc.

But till that day whats the point in having a infantry fatigue/armor system if there is no way to effectively measure it besides heavy panting and counting body twitches on damage.

[Alwarren 2767]

In a perfect game i guess we would have engine smoke, leaking fuel, collapsed tires, fuel guage's, those things will just help convey that information in a more visual matter.

Maybe we will someday get those systems also for fatigue like severed limbs, animations based on weight and damage, fatigue animations etc.

You don't need that. You just need to have an action "diagnose car". Let the player get in and wonder why it doesn't start. And a fuel gauge is very visible (usually) on the dashboard. Of course, most of the armour would need actual interiors for that. Oh yeah, I remember the time when I said I would like to have armour interiors and everybody was bitching at me like "do you only want one tank per side or what?". Good thing we have so many tanks to chose now. Or not.

*sigh*

But till that day whats the point in having a infantry fatigue/armor system if there is no way to effectively measure it besides heavy panting and counting body twitches on damage.

There is sufficient possibilities to convey that information, it's too bad it isn't actually done. I admit that right now there is too little feedback in terms of fatigue, especially considering that NVG's seem to completely replace all post processing effects like the radial blur and blood; this is something that needs to be fixed, but fixed, not worked around by adding more superficial gauges and indicators.