Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[drill 1]

On my opinion, the fatigue system is done very well now. It surely made the game more realistic and playable. At release time Arma 3 was too much simplistic and arcadish compared even to vanilla Arma 2 (not to mention ACE 2), and now with these changes and upcoming weapon inertia, it at last becomes more tactical, complex and interesting. Realism is the main reason why I liked Arma 2 (ACE 2), and thus I hope Arma 3 would further move in the realism direction (rather than arcadish "gameplay").

[blackpixxel 53]

What do you mean by the slightest movements? The extra sway after 10 metres is soo minimal it might as well not be there. And the player recovers in less than 5 seconds. less than 2 when prone. That is nothing unbearable. The only people its going to harm are those that are trying to run and gun... its good as it is.

Well, If I am 100% fresh there should not be any fatique effects when you mode 10m. The weapon sway you get after the distance is very short, but it doesn't feel right. It has nothing to do with run and gun, in CQB you simply have to move 10m from a cover position to another, which should not be as exhausting as it currently is. This is why I would like to have a treshold for the weapon sway. That it does not start after every step, only if you are 10% / 20% / whatever fatiqued. This would make the gameplay more believeable and still punish runners and gunners.

[sarge11111 10]

with the 1.26 update there are further increases in weight for GPS, radios, 320's and GM 6's

you guys are killing me here......

I'm ok with these updates if it makes the game more real but make the bipods more than aesthetic before the MKS release.

ps. thanks for the sway and extended breath holding.

[SilentSpike 84]

Not sure how I feel about fatigue. Just reading through I've definitely experienced what others are describing whereby you're out of breath within 20 or so meters and have to stop and recover for what seems like forever (only for it to happen again in another 20m). However, I've never played with the stamina bar addon and think it's very possible I was simply unaware of how fatigued I was in the first place. Perhaps an optional stamina bar as part of the base game would be a good idea?

On a different note: I feel like one of the key components to integrating the fatigue system is actually improving the effect of suppression on AI units. If you enter a combat situation fatigued, you're not as accurate and you're at an inherent disadvantage. In real life one of the many components of a firefight, which can greatly change the outcome, is suppression - aka the fact that there are bullets flying toward you and it's going to affect your decision making process. As it currently stands in ARMA (as far as I can tell from subjective experience) when you fire at AI units they don't even flinch and just hit the dirt and return fire as if they're not being fired upon. I feel as if the suppression of AI (not players because they already react accordingly) needs to be improved to work alongside the fatigue system. Thing is, I'm not sure how exactly right now. Just increasing their inaccuracy feels cheap.

[devilslayersbane 28]

"Changed: Optimized following speeds of movement:

Increased speed of walking in crouch with lowered pistol

Increased speed of walking in stand with lowered rifle. (credits to Jester 814 for pointing this out)

Slightly slowed down running in crouch with lowered rifle

Increased fatigue gain while walking in kneel with raised weapon

Decreased speed from running in crouch with raised rifle

Slightly decreased speed for tactical movement in crouch with raised rifle

Increased fatigue gain while walking in crouch with raised pistol

Substantially increased speed while walking with launcher in crouch

Increased speed of walking while standing with launcher

Decreased general sway and breathing distortion speeds by 20%

Decreased lateral sway movement by 20%

Increased time window of holding breath to 8 seconds (previously 6) but also slightly decreased the time needed for holding breath to take full effect

Changed: Small changes to fatigue formulas

Changed: Minor tweak to weapon sway formula"

Quoted from spotrep #30.

Thought this would be relevant.

[blackpixxel 53]

I think that these changes where already in the Devbranch, but today they made it into the stable 1.26

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[miketim 20]

Yes I believe I saw a good portion of these before on some dev branch log.

[-Coulum- 35]

It has nothing to do with run and gun, in CQB you simply have to move 10m from a cover position to another, which should not be as exhausting as it currently is. This is why I would like to have a treshold for the weapon sway. That it does not start after every step, only if you are 10% / 20% / whatever fatiqued. This would make the gameplay more believeable and still punish runners and gunners.

I don't see the need for this though. Running 10 metres doesn't exhaust you. It barely has any effect. Its like one or two percent fatigue increase and the sway barely changes - its pretty much negligible. No heavy breathing that's for sure. And within 2 seconds you're back to absolute fresh. I don't see the big problem with this. Why is necessary to be able to expend 20% fatigue (which amounts to a 200 metre run with standard gear) with no fatigue effects kicking in. In real life it only takes a couple seconds to increase breathing and pulse. Why shouldn't it in game?

Running and then trying to engage instantly - that's running and gunning. If "it has nothing to do with run and gun" as you say, why can't you wait the entire 2 seconds (And really you don't have to wait because the sway isn't really that much different from normal rested after gaining such a small amount of fatigue) for your fatigue to drop again?

If you manage your fatigue in and our of combat you will rarely have trouble with weapon sway, unless your rapidly trying to twitch shoot everything (run and gun). Admittedly, against the ai it is often very tempting to think you have to run in gun to beat them (not actually the case). But that is a different issue entirely.

I think alot of the problem comes from people not knowing how to manage the fatigue or how exactly it works. I've made a mission here that does simple tracking of fatigue, time, speed and distance traveled if anyone wants to test it. The arsenal also has a similar tool. You will see that the claims of "I am out of breath and exhausted after 20 metres" are just not true. A stamina bar ingame would really help to let people realize this. It would let them see that they were already extremely tired before that 20 metre run which made them exhausted.

Edited August 20, 2014 by -Coulum-

[mamasan8 11]

Not sure how I feel about fatigue. Just reading through I've definitely experienced what others are describing whereby you're out of breath within 20 or so meters and have to stop and recover for what seems like forever (only for it to happen again in another 20m). However, I've never played with the stamina bar addon and think it's very possible I was simply unaware of how fatigued I was in the first place. Perhaps an optional stamina bar as part of the base game would be a good idea?

On a different note: I feel like one of the key components to integrating the fatigue system is actually improving the effect of suppression on AI units. If you enter a combat situation fatigued, you're not as accurate and you're at an inherent disadvantage. In real life one of the many components of a firefight, which can greatly change the outcome, is suppression - aka the fact that there are bullets flying toward you and it's going to affect your decision making process. As it currently stands in ARMA (as far as I can tell from subjective experience) when you fire at AI units they don't even flinch and just hit the dirt and return fire as if they're not being fired upon. I feel as if the suppression of AI (not players because they already react accordingly) needs to be improved to work alongside the fatigue system. Thing is, I'm not sure how exactly right now. Just increasing their inaccuracy feels cheap.

One way to do it is to force AI to run for cover. Maybe not the whole group but a substantial amount and 1-2 are firing back, then bolting for cover. For example.

[Greenfist 1863]

I think alot of the problem comes from people not knowing how to manage the fatigue or how exactly it works. I've made a mission here that does simple tracking of fatigue, time, speed and distance traveled if anyone wants to test it. The arsenal also has a similar tool. You will see that the claims of "I am out of breath and exhausted after 20 metres" are just not true.

I agree. Everyone, including people who don't have a problem with the fatigue, should study the system a little bit to learn to live with it efficiently. There are so many factors you don't probably realise if you just play the game normally.

I also posted a similar mission/script for fatigue monitoring a while back. Here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180350-Patch-1-24-(Bootcamp-Update)-Feedback&p=2732430&viewfull=1#post2732430

But I think it adds a couple of important factors more compared to your mission; the fatigue change rate and the ability to use it on a natural terrain and not just in VR, i.e. moving up and down hills.

[chortles 263]

Were you the one that posted data about fatigue rates, between different stances and speeds?

[St. Jimmy 272]

Is the faster fatigue recovery with very heavy equipment now in stable?

[Greenfist 1863]

Were you the one that posted data about fatigue rates, between different stances and speeds?

I guess so. But those numbers have changed since with the updates.

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------

Is the faster fatigue recovery with very heavy equipment now in stable?

I think so. The very slow recovery with a very heavy load was a bug in the previous stable update I think.

[chortles 263]

I guess so. But those numbers have changed since with the updates.

My primary concern at the moment is whether they've changed to such extent as to affect the principles (of fatigue management) that you included/derived from those numbers...?

[Greenfist 1863]

My primary concern at the moment is whether they've changed to such extent as to affect the principles (of fatigue management) that you included/derived from those numbers...?

I believe the main principles are still roughly the same. Only the numbers have been tweaked. Except that now you achieve the highest longevity by moving with a lowered handgun.

One thing I mentioned was the faster recovery when running downhill, but that was a bug and was fixed in 1.26.

[-Coulum- 35]

I agree. Everyone, including people who don't have a problem with the fatigue, should study the system a little bit to learn to live with it efficiently. There are so many factors you don't probably realise if you just play the game normally.

I also posted a similar mission/script for fatigue monitoring a while back. Here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthrea...=1#post2732430

But I think it adds a couple of important factors more compared to your mission; the fatigue change rate and the ability to use it on a natural terrain and not just in VR, i.e. moving up and down hills.

Yes your mission is even better and I hope people try it out. There is alot that can be learned. For example it is totally possible to keep a 5 min kilometer pace, with full gear, indefinitely, and never be more than around 5% fatigued by simply running weapon lowered for 50 metres slowing to a walk for 3 seconds and then repeating. 5 min kilometre for ever and ever while never really getting tired is quite good for a loaded soldier.

It can be hard in the middle of a firefight, but if you simply take every opportunity you can to walk, stand instead of crouch, limit how many times you change stance, limit how much you sprint etc., you will find that your fatigue stays really low and it really helps you be more effective at fighting. It is a great dynamic in the game, and combined with the new inertia... its a huge leap forward for arma. Yet another skill that can be mastered to become a better player. And really no other game offers anything like it which is awesome. Arma 3 is actually breaking new ground in the gameplay department, which is pretty amazing.

[djotacon 190]

I see the fatigue too much high.

I found more logical that you have a severe fatigue only with over-weight.

[tranquillity 10]

here is a video of a firefight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASEg-EenEI.

Look at how much they are sprinting around? Oh you mean they walk fast, and when they HAVE to cross open spaces they sprint quickly and then go back to walking or sitting somewhere and observing the area? Look at some of the related videos there.

You can do the same in ARMA3, with the new fatigue system. What you can and should not be able to do, is to sprint around with heavy plate carriers, body armor and 1200 rounds in the backpack. And a Titan launcher with 2 missiles.

If you mostly use the jog with weapons down, and dont sprint around like a confused goat, it will be all right.

I really like where you are going BI, keep it up like that:)

[Variable 322]

^ what he said. BIS, keep the faith!

[mwnciboo 11]

I think with Fatigue, you've got the opportunity for "Adrenaline" fuelled movement. e.g when you are under fire close (within say a 1-5 metres of you) you get a boost to fatigue, so you can sprint fast even if tired or heavy because your life depends on it. The balance for this would be when you get to cover or stop....That's it for 1minute or you are literally so badly fatigued it takes 1-2 minutes to get your breath back.

I think this would be interesting, as in my experience, you would run on adrenaline even when your tank is on empty and you were tired, but the crash the other side was devastating as your already tired body over exerts yourself because it's life and death. Sprinting around under fire is absolutely the most tiring thing, especially carrying like 25kg of kit in 30 degree plus heat, even in winter it's hot work.

Do you see this guy slowing down because he feels a bit tired? Adrenaline allows you to go beyond your tiredness but the crash is horrendous and cripples you.

Edited August 27, 2014 by mwnciboo

[-Coulum- 35]

Do you see this guy slowing down because he feels a bit tired? Adrenaline allows you to go beyond your tiredness but the crash is horrendous and cripples you.

Well, that or he wasn't actually that tired in the first place.

If adreneline were to be put in, I think you would have to not only have the positive effects (increased stamina and resistance to pain), but also the negative effects (tunnel vision, trembling etc.).

Overall though I don't see a need for an extra boost of energy when under fire. It takes a concerted effort to fatigue yourself to the point of not being able to sprint right now. Play smart (not even, rather just don't play dumb) and you won't need that adrenaline boost.

here is a video of a firefight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASEg-EenEI.

Yep. Takes a short run and gets to the other side, breathing heavily. That must not be one of the supersoldiers some people seem to think make up the majority of the average grunts in an army.

Edited August 27, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Tonci87 163]

I don´t get why some people have problems with the fatigue. Yesterday we played a mission where I was an MG gunner. I had the weapon, personal items, grenades, several hundred rounds of Ammo, plate carrier, backpack etc. We had to sprint across a large open field. I wasn´t exhausted when we reached the other side. New system is fine.

[CaptainObvious 95]

I don´t get why some people have problems with the fatigue. Yesterday we played a mission where I was an MG gunner. I had the weapon, personal items, grenades, several hundred rounds of Ammo, plate carrier, backpack etc. We had to sprint across a large open field. I wasn´t exhausted when we reached the other side. New system is fine.

I'm pretty certain the negative feedback originates from Wasteland or other similar non-tactical game modes where you pretty much run from town to town with your sprint key pressed.

My biggest concern is that Bohemia might be frightened of the seemingly massive negative feedback about this as well as the weapon inertia, although the vast majority of the players who play "proper" missions with tactical approach really like these changes.

[gibonez 18]

I don´t get why some people have problems with the fatigue. Yesterday we played a mission where I was an MG gunner. I had the weapon, personal items, grenades, several hundred rounds of Ammo, plate carrier, backpack etc. We had to sprint across a large open field. I wasn´t exhausted when we reached the other side. New system is fine.

Because now you can't play the game like COD and sprint everywhere while having perfect aim at people 200m away.

[Tonci87 163]

I'm pretty certain the negative feedback originates from Wasteland or other similar non-tactical game modes where you pretty much run from town to town with your sprint key pressed.

My biggest concern is that Bohemia might be frightened of the seemingly massive negative feedback about this as well as the weapon inertia, although the vast majority of the players who play "proper" missions with tactical approach really like these changes.

Well in that case it is clearly a mission design problem. Arma 3 doesn´t have a huge variety of vehicels but it sure as hell is enough to implement some for players to get from A to B.