Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[old_painless 183]

Can't say it better myself - I agree with Bouben. I would add that for the purpose of feedback to BI, an actual meter would be very helpful to test out various loadouts and the "mass" property of equipment.

And why anyone can be opposed to an indicator that

a) obviously should be able to be toggled off and

b) may be tied to difficulty

is beyond me.

[Bouben 3]

Can't say it better myself - I agree with Bouben. I would add that for the purpose of feedback to BI, an actual meter would be very helpful to test out various loadouts and the "mass" property of equipment.

And why anyone can be opposed to an indicator that

a) obviously should be able to be toggled off and

b) may be tied to difficulty

is beyond me.

I would not connect it to difficulty as it has nothing to do with it (I believe). I agree with it being completely optional, of course.

[old_painless 183]

I would not connect it to difficulty as it has nothing to do with it (I believe). I agree with it being completely optional, of course.

Right, but if they chose to make a hud element visible only on lower difficulty levels, it could be a convenient way for server admins to enforce if players on the server use it or not through difficulty options. So Veteran servers would not use it, while Regular servers could, for instance. But servers can set up their fully custom profiles AFAIR.

[Bouben 3]

Right, but if they chose to make a hud element visible only on lower difficulty levels, it could be a convenient way for server admins to enforce if players on the server use it or not through difficulty options. So Veteran servers would not use it, while Regular servers could, for instance. But servers can set up their fully custom profiles AFAIR.

Yes, I believe servers can make fully custom profiles and therefore there is no need to connect it to a specific difficulty level.

I believe it would be a win-win solution for everyone as hardcore players rarely play on random public servers anyway.

[Smurf 12]

Simple argument in favor of a fatigue bar (or expand the stance indicator):

Since..

This effect builds up according to the fatigue level and causes a player's movements to slow down by a certain non-linear degree

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-sway-fatigue

+

adjusted stances

+

combat pace (or many speeds)

+

custom gear

+

terrain elevation

+

resting

are all dynamic factors, you should have a greater notion of how fast you are getting tired.

And while at it, the "Stance Indicator" could use a little love aswell to represent the speeds (walk, jog, combat, sprint). Sometimes with toggleables things get a little messy.

[Bouben 3]

Simple argument in favor of a fatigue bar (or expand the stance indicator):

Since..

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-sway-fatigue

+

adjusted stances

+

combat pace (or many speeds)

+

custom gear

+

terrain elevation

+

resting

are all dynamic factors, you should have a greater notion of how fast you are getting tired.

And while at it, the "Stance Indicator" could use a little love aswell to represent the speeds (walk, jog, combat, sprint). Sometimes with toggleables things get a little messy.

Exactly.

[old_painless 183]

Yes, I believe servers can make fully custom profiles and therefore there is no need to connect it to a specific difficulty level.

True if that is indeed possible then you are right

[blackpixxel 53]

All the arguments for the Fatique-Symbol are like the arguments for 3rd person + crosshair

In real life you don't know exactly your fatique. You just know it very rough. And Arma 3 gives you rough indicators.

The weapon shake, the sound of your breath, the slowdown, the blur.

You always know whether you can keep on running or not. I am completely against everything that dumbs down the game more and more...

[CaptainObvious 95]

In real life you don't know exactly your fatique. You just know it very rough.

...snip...

I don't even...

I'd be fine with an optional fatigue-o-meter if I can disable it but I don't need such thing myself.

[Bouben 3]

All the arguments for the Fatique-Symbol are like the arguments for 3rd person + crosshair

In real life you don't know exactly your fatique. You just know it very rough. And Arma 3 gives you rough indicators.

The weapon shake, the sound of your breath, the slowdown, the blur.

You always know whether you can keep on running or not. I am completely against everything that dumbs down the game more and more...

I absolutely don't agree. Read my posts if interested.

I am also against dumbing the game down. HUD-less FPS are dumb.

EDIT: Also, have you noticed that we would like it being an optional feature?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Bouben

[enex 11]

We have audible and visual indicator of getting tired.We have animation

of slowdown body movement.Not only that, Learn section teaches you

how stamina effect you so you can learn there how does it raise.

It worked in ACE, (Ace stamina - where you could go unconscious

if you were too overcumbered) it will work here even better since

implementation is in engine with all indicators (audio, visually, animation slowdown)

[seba1976 98]

Animation slowdown... Jesus... I never noticed when I'm tired I move in slow-mo :).

[blackpixxel 53]

EDIT: Also, have you noticed that we would like it being an optional feature?

Third person view and crosshairs are also optional features. And nearly every server has them.

It is terrible that everything should be so easy and accessible. Is it really so hard to get a feeling for your fatique in game and to learn when you should make a rest?

Every ACE player is perfectly able of doing so. That shows that a HUD symbol is unnecessary. And in ACE there is not even an animation slowdown. Just the sound of your heartbeat.

[Bouben 3]

Third person view and crosshairs are also optional features. And nearly every server has them.

It is terrible that everything should be so easy and accessible. Is it really so hard to get a feeling for your fatique in game and to learn when you should make a rest?

Every ACE player is perfectly able of doing so. That shows that a HUD symbol is unnecessary. And in ACE there is not even an animation slowdown. Just the sound of your heartbeat.

I never realized that you, "hardcore" players are playing on PUBLIC servers...

Also, this has NOTHING to do with being easy and accessible. I would hate Arma to be easy and casual. But I also hate stupid and irrational, stubborn things that are supposed to make the game "more challenging". So this is about current fatigue information being UNREALISTIC. I want more realistic experience and therefore want the fatigue bar. I have a lot more info IRL than in the game about my current fatigue and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. I want more realistic experience and not these stupid, desperate, pseudo-hardcore-difficult-like restrictions that has nothing to do with actual skills but just stupidity of people that are unable to realize that you cannot get realistic amount of info without compromises in HUDs in virtual worlds.

An example for you:

I would love the ammo count to disappear from my HUD as I really enjoy "magazine feels XYZ" system from ACE. That is a good compromise between reality and game and it is informative enough.

I would hate the crosshair to disappear from my HUD as that is completely unrealistic, because without it you have much less info about your gun position than IRL. And no, the argument "you don't see a crosshair IRL in front your eyes" is completely invalid.

I will always repeat this:

You can also make your game more challenging by playing it with your eyes shut.

[Variable 322]

Bouben, calm down. You need to realise one thing that is completely absent from your post. More accurate information on your fatigue level in a form of a HUD element comes with a price, and that's the price of clutter and over-flowing the player with info. Why overflowing? Because the benefit from a fatigue level indication is LOWER than the price payed on HUD clutter it will cause. You and all this unnecessary feature supporters have failed to present even a single use case that requires such HUD element (and adding colours to an existing element has just the same level of added clutter) and that the current natural indications do not provide.

Remember that when you want to add features, the burden of proof lies on you.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Variable

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Honestly, it's not necessary to have the fatigue bar added. Why? Well, because when you get tired in real life, it's simply that. Your tired. You start to slow down, breath hard, and that's it. Not really a bar telling you how tired to you are, all you know is that you need to rest. Or, your like me, and runs a little, walks some, runs a little, walks some. Keeping pace. A Fatigue bar is kinda... Idk. It'll break immersion. imho.

[Variable 322]

For all those who feel they "know exactly how far they can sprint while fatiguing" try to answer this question: your fatigue indicator shows 57%. For how long can you run? Can't answer that? Don't ask for a fatigue bar.

[Bouben 3]

Bouben, calm down. You need to realise one thing that is completely absent from your post. More accurate information on your fatigue level in a form of a HUD element comes with a price, and that's the price of clutter and over-flowing the player with info. Why overflowing? Because the benefit from a fatigue level indication is LOWER than the price payed on HUD clutter it will cause. You and all this unnecessary feature supporters have failed to present even a single use case that requires such HUD element (and adding colours to an existing element has just the same level of added clutter) and that the current natural indications do not provide.

Remember that when you want to add features, the burden of proof lies on you.

I believe I already presented a case when such HUD element would be necessary. Problem is that you don't believe it was reason enough. Nothing I can do about it really. I cannot force my opinion on anyone.

Also, have you ever played Max Payne? If yes, remember that health bar silhouette? So imagine that in Arma but for fatigue system. The posture silhouette could be simply emptying itself at a rate of current fatigue increase. So no extra space cluttered. It would use already existing HUD feature.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------

For all those who feel they "know exactly how far they can sprint while fatiguing" try to answer this question: your fatigue indicator shows 57%. For how long can you run? Can't answer that? Don't ask for a fatigue bar.

God damn it, mate...

I already explained to you that it has nothing to do with exact percentage or exact numbers. The point is that you can see a rate at which are numbers climbing up and dropping down and that is your visual indicator according to which you are able to estimate how fast you get tired, how fast you get rested and how hard you can push yourself without actually going over your limits. The point is that you will know it before you even get tired. You simply estimate it according to actual rate of changing of values. Simple as that. So with this feature you will be able to keep a certain pace because you will safely know, all the time (as IRL), how much you can push yourself yet without actually getting any of the negative effects that fatigue brings to you. You would be able to prevent such things. That is the point.

As Smurf already exactly explained, with such a big amount of variables that can influence fatigue you need a precise information about its current status.

So, again, it is not about numbers because the number values could be easily changed to something more abstract like a Max Payne health bar.

It is all about seeing the rate of changing of values and not about actual numbers.

Got it?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Bouben

[Variable 322]

I believe I already presented a case when such HUD element would be necessary. Problem is that you don't believe it was reason enough. Nothing I can do about it really. I cannot force my opinion on anyone.

Also, have you ever played Max Payne? If yes, remember that health bar silhouette? So imagine that in Arma but for fatigue system. The posture silhouette could be simply emptying itself at a rate of current fatigue increase. So no extra space cluttered. It would use already existing HUD feature.

You refuse to understand. Let me try again. 1. For the sake of immersion and feeling "human", some information is better left unknown. Too much information will make you feel like a cyborg instead of flesh and blood. 2. You are confusing between screen real-estate and amount of information, your (hideous, in my opinion, sorry), idea, while keeping the same level of HUD screen real-estate, is increasing the information projected to the player, and the benefit cannot justify that.

[Bouben 3]

You refuse to understand. Let me try again. 1. For the sake of immersion and feeling "human", some information is better left unknown. Too much information will make you feel like a cyborg instead of flesh and blood. 2. You are confusing between screen real-estate and amount of information, your (hideous, in my opinion, sorry), idea, while keeping the same level of HUD screen real-estate, is increasing the information projected to the player, and the benefit cannot justify that.

Notice: I am sorry, I edited my post after you have written this.

1) I simply don't agree as the feeling of being human is too "expensive" in this situation. Realistic amount of information is priority for me in simulation games. Feeling is secondary (but also very important of course). There needs to be a compromise, unfortunately.

2) You don't have to use that information. It could be done in a subtle way and completely optional. Also...seeing cumbersomeness of some really dense interfaces (from mods etc.) and seeing their popularity is telling me that Arma players can handle a lot of info. It is not a casual game, right?

[five_seven5-7 56]

A heart rate data included in the GPS won't do no harm, this way we can see our condition and isn't based on the breathing sound. Those who practice sport, knows that this is how it is done.

[John Kozak 14]

For all those who feel they "know exactly how far they can sprint while fatiguing" try to answer this question: your fatigue indicator shows 57%. For how long can you run? Can't answer that? Don't ask for a fatigue bar.

"I invite you to look up Straw Man on the Wikipedia" ;-)

[John Kozak 14]

All the arguments for the Fatique-Symbol are like the arguments for 3rd person + crosshair

In real life you don't know exactly your fatique. You just know it very rough. And Arma 3 gives you rough indicators.

The weapon shake, the sound of your breath, the slowdown, the blur.

You always know whether you can keep on running or not. I am completely against everything that dumbs down the game more and more...

That is wrong - unlike "3rd person and crosshair", those arguments are actually relevant here. No one is speaking about "exact values" as well - we're talking indicator, not meter.

You're relying on your breathing sound and weapon sway in real life too, aren't you?

Edited July 10, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[rübe 127]

A heart rate monitor included in the GPS won't do no harm, this way we can see our condition and isn't based on the breathing sound. Those who practice sport, knows that this is how it is done.

This is IMHO the way to go, if you want to have access to such information ingame. In this particular case, an additional inventory item (that can be seen on the map screen or put onto the regular screen as display/overlay - just like the watch, the compass or gps) would be perfect indeed.

A similar discussion came up with respect to weights (or total weight) of a player's items. Well, instead of showing all kind of numbers (in the inventory screen?), why not have a functional ingame scale/weighing machine object? If you want an overview of item-weights, why not have some manual/catalogue ingame laying around, that makes such information available (if you really want to)?

Otherwise, and from a gameplay point of view, I have to agree that a fatigue indication is not necessary. You'll get used to it/get a feel for it soon enough. And yes, "HUD cyborg information" should be kept as minimal as possible (unless you got some fancy helmet with fancy displayes and what not - then it's all fine).

[John Kozak 14]

Bouben, calm down. You need to realise one thing that is completely absent from your post. More accurate information on your fatigue level in a form of a HUD element comes with a price, and that's the price of clutter and over-flowing the player with info. Why overflowing? Because the benefit from a fatigue level indication is LOWER than the price payed on HUD clutter it will cause. You and all this unnecessary feature supporters have failed to present even a single use case that requires such HUD element (and adding colours to an existing element has just the same level of added clutter) and that the current natural indications do not provide.

Remember that when you want to add features, the burden of proof lies on you.

It's not we who have failed to present something, it's you who failed to understand. Your argument about "overflowing player" is invalid, by the way - you are just making it up.