CaptainObvious 95 Posted June 30, 2014 tpw said: I think it does, certainly they do the slow motion running when they are fatigued. Their shooting isn't affected it seems, at least not enough compared to players. I placed myself some 50 meters in front of AI at Stratis runway, I didn't notice any difference between fully fatigued AI and AI without it, I was dead in a couple of seconds on both occasions. And it's ~impossible to kill the AI when both you and the AI are fully fatigued. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seba1976 98 Posted June 30, 2014 tpw said: I think it does, certainly they do the slow motion running when they are fatigued. May be so, but the qustion is, will the AI apply proper discipline to try to cope with the new system? Or will we be seeing zombie-like AI walking the streets of Altis, like when ACE implemented the same thing you do now, back in Arma 1, just to remove it in ACE for Arma 2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bouben 3 Posted June 30, 2014 seba1976 said: Can the new system be turned off? :) You are really going to screw the game this time. The point is, you can barely fight the AI back as it is now, imagine without being able to carry extra equipment, more weapon sway, slower movements, and less sprinting capability... Jesus. Some things should not be simulated, becasue they can't be simulated properly with a mouse, a keyboard, and monitor. Your obviously thinking about PvP, and leaving everyone else behind. Don't panic and wait until it's done and balanced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brisse 78 Posted June 30, 2014 The AI will slown down becouse of fatigue, but their aim works different from players. They do not have weapon sway as we do and they don't hold breath. I think the devs will just do some kind of general adjustment to the AI aiming precision to balance these changes. The balance player VS ai will be just as unfair as it was before. There is no way to make it fair. The AI will never be controlled by a human. That would be the only way to make it fair, but it is not possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sillywabbit 10 Posted June 30, 2014 Arma Your game has the biggest learning curve, your adding more learning curves! Stop it, you're alienating new players. This whole Fatigue and weapon sway is going to far over the top! Game-play over complicated realism please. I still find it confusing holding ctrl for stance adjust and switch scope mode. This is after a few hundred hours clocked on steam, Don't over complicate the game just for co-op players. Currently in PVP servers if you push objectives your at a loss, you cant aim right at people in windows or laid down, your just firing into the air while they can pin point you and you're full team. Heavy load should decrease the range you can run, but it should not effect normal jog speed of pressing W You should be able to engage at any target at any point, you should not have to sit or lay on the ground for 4-5 seconds before you can shoot. 4-5 in FPS means kill or be killed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted June 30, 2014 seba1976 said: Can the new system be turned off? :) You are really going to screw the game this time. The point is, you can barely fight the AI back as it is now, imagine without being able to carry extra equipment, more weapon sway, slower movements, and less sprinting capability... Jesus. Some things should not be simulated, becasue they can't be simulated properly with a mouse, a keyboard, and monitor. Your obviously thinking about PvP, and leaving everyone else behind. I agree that they should nerf the AI but also i don't want to see running missions where I'm outnumbered by 1:10 and I've to rambo through everything like in the last mission in Survive and some other campaign missions. That's also a problem in some people's quick missions. Missions that have unrealistic expectations have realistic consequences, you can't win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sillywabbit 10 Posted June 30, 2014 Tonci87 said: Adjust your playstyle, Move from cover to cover while someone surpresses the shooter, never run out into the open, etc. Finally this game is getting some much needed realism. Go join the army then, this is a pc game and its at the point where it should be. This is a totally diffrent game from bf4, cod and all the rest, it was fun and enjoyable. Now it feels like i am restricted. Leave the ultra realism to the modders. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
byku 13 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Sillywabbit said: Go join the army then, this is a pc game and its at the point where it should be. This is a totally diffrent game from bf4, cod and all the rest, it was fun and enjoyable. Now it feels like i am restricted. Leave the ultra realism to the modders. If we're using "this is pc game" and "join the army", then i will use "play BF4" ;], i hope you're not a racing sim fan, because if you are then ... don't play then, go race on a track ;). It's silly to have realistic racing sims ;] (sarcasm). Personally I LOVE the new fatigue! I frikking adore it. It creates whole new complexity to a fight! And yes, if you don't like it, you can disable it ;). Think in battle! Use terrain to your advantage! Think about enemy fatigue! Thinking is a big part of winning, get used to it ;). Although, personally i have nothing against having options for this system, so it can be adapted to people who don't like complicated stuff... Edited June 30, 2014 by Byku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeMeSiS 11 Posted June 30, 2014 Sillywabbit said: Go join the army then, this is a pc game and its at the point where it should be. This is a totally diffrent game from bf4, cod and all the rest, it was fun and enjoyable. Now it feels like i am restricted. Leave the ultra realism to the modders. Some of us prefer it this way. :rolleyes: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted June 30, 2014 Sillywabbit said: Go join the army then, this is a pc game and its at the point where it should be. This is a totally diffrent game from bf4, cod and all the rest, it was fun and enjoyable. Now it feels like i am restricted. Leave the ultra realism to the modders. To everone who thinks that this ruined PvP: Be smarter than your enemy and catch him when he is exhausted. The new system doesn`t only restrict you..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
instagoat 133 Posted June 30, 2014 Learn to play the system. It's finally the way it is supposed to be, punishing you for getting overweight. If you don't want to get exhausted, take less mags and ditch the plate carrier for a bandolier or only a backpack. Only trouble right now is that AI is leaving behind their AT gunners and other heavily weighed down units, on my first couple of test runs. Otherwise, brilliant. Please don't castrate the system again Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vegeta897 13 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) People get too used to bad game mechanics that they go nuts whenever you make it better. With this new system, your gear actually has real impact. This is perfect for Arma, and it should have been in the game from day 1. Just because it hasn't been in until now doesn't mean it shouldn't be. The devs aren't going to go back on their decision to add diversity to their game just because some people lack the ability to adapt. Use smoke, flank, counter-snipe. If your old strategies relied on being able to move fast and snipe targets within the span of a second, or dodge bullets by dashing around, then you weren't taking advantage of what makes Arma unique. Those are strategies that work in arcade FPS games. They do not work in real life, and should not work in arma. I'm not saying Arma should model real life as much as possible, but this is a concession in gameplay that actually makes sense. It encourages tactics over speed and headshots. It makes you consider what you're carrying. Cover matters more. You can actually pin and suppress more effectively, because they can't just dash out of your view in a second. Why would you want a player who has a stationary and stable position to have no firefight advantage over a player that just dashed 50 meters? In what way does that belong in an Arma game? The firefight advantage is not the only advantage. That stationary player, if remaining in a fixed position, is prone to tunnel vision and being flanked. Choosing to remain there has its own pros and cons, just as moving up on him has its own as well. This is the beauty of a strategic and tactical shooter. The OPREP has some good tips and explanations of the system. This is a very useful read for getting acquainted with the new mechanics. I'm so glad to see BIS isn't afraid to introduce changes like this. Edited June 30, 2014 by vegeta897 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tpw 2315 Posted June 30, 2014 Now that the comical weapon vibration is gone, the fatigue and weapon sway stuff is really effective. I'm hoping we will see fatigue affect things like prone roll speed and turning speed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seba1976 98 Posted June 30, 2014 vegeta897 said: People get too used to bad game mechanics that they go nuts whenever you make it better. With this new system, your gear actually has real impact. This is perfect for Arma, and it should have been in the game from day 1. Just because it hasn't been in until now doesn't mean it shouldn't be. The devs aren't going to go back on their decision to add diversity to their game just because some people lack the ability to adapt. Use smoke, flank, counter-snipe. If your old strategies relied on being able to move fast and snipe targets within the span of a second, or dodge bullets by dashing around, then you weren't taking advantage of what makes Arma unique. Those are strategies that work in arcade FPS games. They do not work in real life, and should not work in arma. I'm not saying Arma should model real life as much as possible, but this is a concession in gameplay that actually makes sense. It encourages tactics over speed and headshots. It makes you consider what you're carrying. Cover matters more. You can actually pin and suppress more effectively, because they can't just dash out of your view in a second. Why would you want a player who has a stationary and stable position to have no firefight advantage over a player that just dashed 50 meters? In what way does that belong in an Arma game? The firefight advantage is not the only advantage. That stationary player, if remaining in a fixed position, is prone to tunnel vision and being flanked. Choosing to remain there has its own pros and cons, just as moving up on him has its own as well. This is the beauty of a strategic and tactical shooter. You seem to forget that Arma is a platform for many game types. What the devs are doing with this overkill fatigue and weapon sway change, is to rest diversity to the platform, by limiting the platform usability to only one thing: PvP military operations. Which leads me to my second point: the reactions that each of us are having, depends on what we are used to use Arma for. You obviously think of it as PvP milsim and (hear me on this :)) I agree with you completely in regards to PvP. Just concede, that for many other types of game modes and uses, this could be a huge drawback. Don't complain later, when the number of players start falling like flies :). ---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ---------- tpw said: Now that the comical weapon vibration is gone, the fatigue and weapon sway stuff is really effective. I'm hoping we will see fatigue affect things like prone roll speed and turning speed. Come on man, the AI will have a field day now. One can hear their celebrations :). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vegeta897 13 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Funnily enough, you're exactly wrong about your assessment of me. 95% of my experience in Arma is coop or SP. Would you care to explain why the gameplay mechanics I mentioned are exclusively PvP? If the AI is balanced in tandem with these new changes, I don't see what the issue is. How is not being able to carry a dozen mags and a launcher and still be highly mobile an exclusively PvP concept? I want to have to consider my loadout, my movement, my cover, etc. whether I'm against a human or an AI. I don't want to have to pretend that they matter. I don't understand how giving the player a real reason to consider these things limits the platform. What if the game didn't have weapon recoil at all? Would that be a less limited platform? I don't see the connection between realism and platform restriction. BIS is not taking away any features. They're making existing features matter more in a way that is both realistic and encouraging of tactical gameplay. Edited June 30, 2014 by vegeta897 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tpw 2315 Posted June 30, 2014 seba1976 said: Come on man, the AI will have a field day now. One can hear their celebrations :). Why so? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chortles 263 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) InstaGoat said: Only trouble right now is that AI is leaving behind their AT gunners and other heavily weighed down units, on my first couple of test runs.Doesn't sound like a problem unless the AI squads are breaking formation/unit cohesion by the lighter units continuing at the same pace that they would have before these changes, they're doing so at times when they really 'should' wait up (i.e. if they would be aware of opposing armor), or both. tpw said: Why so?Pretty much this question, especially if the AI end up having to finally play by the same rules. (I distinctly recall player feedback to the effect that the AI did not seem to be affected in the same way as players in the previous implementations.) Edited July 1, 2014 by Chortles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drumheller 19 Posted July 1, 2014 DNK said: One big suggestion: make the tooltip popup for equipment/weapons also include weight. If you're going to make it this important, we should be able to quantifiably know how heavy a given piece of equipment is. Currently, there's that quite elegant lower bar oranging thing, but it's not terribly precise for smaller things like magazines, and I can't find the .bin that holds the weight info.Anywho: Awesome awesome awesome. I was just about to complain in another thread about the weak effects of fatigue, and how it should (A) have a stronger stamina impact based on weight, (B) slowdown, and © more weapon sway, and then I come here and bam! You guys did it already. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. We need actual weight values for our equipment and overall loadouts and how they affect our fatigue levels. I feel the current system and this new system are simply far too vague. We literally have to measure our equipment load by "Oh I'm up to the suppressor slot" or "I'm at the compass". We need to know exactly what the weight limits and limitations are so that we can decide on our load-outs for missions based on the distance we're going to have to move on foot. Not just a general "The more loaded down you are, the more fatigue you get from every exhaustive action." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenfist 1863 Posted July 1, 2014 MacScottie said: We need to know exactly what the weight limits and limitations are so that we can decide on our load-outs for missions based on the distance we're going to have to move on foot. Not just a general "The more loaded down you are, the more fatigue you get from every exhaustive action." Would it be any way realistic if the game told you "Your load is 25.7 kg. You can jog on flat surface for 561m before slowing down." This would be cool thing to learn from player made charts and calculations but it shouldn't be shown in the game so directly. Just like the game shouldn't show you your fatigue level in numbers. And there are no "weight limits". The more gear you have, the more you get fatigued. If you're naked, you can run about 7km before total exhaustion. If you take on a balaclava and a compass with you, you'll run a little less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
13islucky 10 Posted July 1, 2014 Greenfist said: Would it be any way realistic if the game told you "Your load is 25.7 kg. You can jog on flat surface for 561m before slowing down." This would be cool thing to learn from player made charts and calculations but it shouldn't be shown in the game so directly. Just like the game shouldn't show you your fatigue level in numbers.And there are no "weight limits". The more gear you have, the more you get fatigued. If you're naked, you can run about 7km before total exhaustion. If you take on a balaclava and a compass with you, you'll run a little less. Perhaps not, but it seems sensible enough to know the base mass of most equipment and to be able to know approximately how much you carry in units of mass/weight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenfist 1863 Posted July 1, 2014 13isLucky said: Perhaps not, but it seems sensible enough to know the base mass of most equipment and to be able to know approximately how much you carry in units of mass/weight. That's why the weight bar turns orange when you grab an item, right? No need to get more accurate than that. Holding the mouse button down on an object is like taking it in your hands to feel the mass. Most guns, grenades, magazines, sunglasses don't have the gross weight printed on them. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Kozak 14 Posted July 1, 2014 Greenfist said: That's why the weight bar turns orange when you grab an item, right? No need to get more accurate than that. Holding the mouse button down on an object is like taking it in your hands to feel the mass. Most guns, grenades, magazines, sunglasses don't have the gross weight printed on them. :) On one hand, yes. On the other, having a ballpark figure is very convenient in hardcore coop. We had plenty of situations where we just said "okay, we need to be mobile, max load 20 kg". Not that it's critical, but useful sometimes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenfist 1863 Posted July 1, 2014 DarkWanderer said: On one hand, yes. On the other, having a ballpark figure is very convenient in hardcore coop. We had plenty of situations where we just said "okay, we need to be mobile, max load 20 kg". Not that it's critical, but useful sometimes. Yeah, the bar definitely needs some points of reference. Like colour segments; green, yellow, red. Or little ticks along it. So you could say something like "max load 3 quarters" or "below red". That doesn't sound as tacticool as "20kg" but would be much better than now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BL1P 35 Posted July 1, 2014 @Greenfist or anyone :) Is that bar at the bottom of the Inventory menu weight or capacity ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Kozak 14 Posted July 1, 2014 BL1P said: @Greenfist or anyone :)Is that bar at the bottom of the Inventory menu weight or capacity ? It's abstract "inventory units" comprising both weight and volume. For gameplay purposes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites