"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

[smokedog3para 365]

a lot of talented mod makers have and still are getting paid by bis for work, half a3 was whored out to the community as i have found out while talking to a few guys on ts and skype it seems only the elite are allowed to be paid and others not i won't name names but you know who you are

[roshnak 41]

Paid third party content may very well be better for modders, but I'm not sure it's better for players. I don't really want Arma to become a platform through which a bunch of extra content is sold. It's already a $60 game and people often play with dozens of mods. How much would that cost? Sometimes I have a rough time convincing the people I play with to download and install mods as it is. They straight up will not do it if it costs them money.

Money just also makes things really complicated.

[onlyrazor 11]

I'd wager the Valve system of monetising user-made content isn't popular because of the effects on the community so much as for the fact it works from a business perspective. Definitely could be a motivating factor. Again, this thread's veering off into knee-jerk reactions and hasty judgements over things that haven't even happened yet. May I suggest we delay the "ruined forever!" train until after this has irrevocably destroyed the Arma name, its community and the entirety of the Internet? And if it really does, vote with your wallets. In my experience, it's more practical than going to every forum and proclaiming your moral outrage (not to say that that doesn't help either).

[Tonci87 163]

Everyone in favour of something like that doesn´t think of one important thing:

If you pay for something you expect something in return.

Now if someone makes a mod he can do with it whatever he wants. He can change it around, leave it in a unfinished state etc.

Lets take two Mods as example I like to use even if they are broken (please OS and LJ don´t be mad at me).

Blastcore and JSRS are broken.

I´m totally fine with having to wait for fixes and adjusting to the mod authors style and speed of work. However If people paid for those mods they would be rightfully pissed and bitch about it on the forums.

Do you think a modders life is going to be easier if he is obliged to do what his customers (because at that point he has customers) want in a timeframe they dictate?

A Donation System, a more prominent and officially endorsed one is the way to go.

[katipo66 94]

Getting better modding tools with documentation would be great and maybe open the doors too a lot more talent that may be hampered by the technical hurdles.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

The ONLY way this would EVER work without a complete and udder dismembering of the Arma Community Time Continuum, is if a mod maker was privately hired by BI, via. email or other means, and was tasked with making a mod. That means that the mod MUST be complete, and mint top condition, because BI would then take it from there, and pay them for it, and then sell it as some sort of DLC officially. But guess what, then there could be division and disagreement with money shares in accordance to said mod. So even if it were officially distributed, there is still confusion. I bet Make Arma Not War has something to do with this whole scheme. However, still, any other way of making a mod, and making it paid, wouldn't register well in this community. It would simply be a cluster F.

[roshnak 41]

I'd wager the Valve system of monetising user-made content isn't popular because of the effects on the community so much as for the fact it works from a business perspective. Definitely could be a motivating factor. Again, this thread's veering off into knee-jerk reactions and hasty judgements over things that haven't even happened yet. May I suggest we delay the "ruined forever!" train until after this has irrevocably destroyed the Arma name, its community and the entirety of the Internet? And if it really does, vote with your wallets. In my experience, it's more practical than going to every forum and proclaiming your moral outrage (not to say that that doesn't help either).

Something that's important to remember about Valve's system is that the games that it's implemented in are free-to-play. TF2 didn't start out that way, but it was only $20 at release.

Everyone in favour of something like that doesn´t think of one important thing:

If you pay for something you expect something in return.

Also, seriously this.

Honestly, there are a ton of issues that I can think of with monetizing third party content.

Someone earlier in the thread said, basically, that it was all just speculation and worrying over worst case scenarios, which is true. But I think it's worth examining the issue as deeply as possible, since once the precedent is in place, it's really difficult take it back.

[Tonci87 163]

I have an idea.

What would be if the mods on Steam workshop had a Donate button on the modpage that is linked to the paypal account of the mod author. I´m talking about offciall functionality provided by BIS. A Mod author could register with BIS and they would place that donate button on his mods.

Not only would modders get more revenue, it would also help to make the workshop more attractive to them.

What do you think of that?

[roshnak 41]

Can you do that on the Steam Workshop? I thought it was pretty heavily regulated.

Also, doesn't uploading to the Workshop basically give Valve full rights over your assets? I understand why the do it (so they can use that stuff in advertisements and the like (and maybe something else if they think of it later)) but it seems like it could present problems for trying to get money for anything distributed through Steam Workshop.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I have an idea.

What would be if the mods on Steam workshop had a Donate button on the modpage that is linked to the paypal account of the mod author. I´m talking about offciall functionality provided by BIS. A Mod author could register with BIS and they would place that donate button on his mods.

Not only would modders get more revenue, it would also help to make the workshop more attractive to them.

What do you think of that?

Aren't we allowed to ask for donations already? I don't think anyone is stopping you from putting a link to your paypal, amazon wishlist or dogecoin wallet in your signature. It is something i am very much in favor of. There are a lot of people who i would like to buy a beer to thank them for their work, and donations are an easy and opt-inish way to solve this.

It is not really an incentive to start modding since you are not selling anything, but it is an easy way to thank people for their work and show appreciation.

[Tonci87 163]

Aren't we allowed to ask for donations already? I don't think anyone is stopping you from putting a link to your paypal, amazon wishlist or dogecoin wallet in your signature. It is something i am very much in favor of. There are a lot of people who i would like to buy a beer to thank them for their work, and donations are an easy and opt-inish way to solve this.

It is not really an incentive to start modding since you are not selling anything, but it is an easy way to thank people for their work and show appreciation.

No I mean something like a build in, prominent, button on the right side of the Steamworkshop mod page.

[evromalarkey 150]

I have an idea.

What would be if the mods on Steam workshop had a Donate button on the modpage that is linked to the paypal account of the mod author. I´m talking about offciall functionality provided by BIS. A Mod author could register with BIS and they would place that donate button on his mods.

Not only would modders get more revenue, it would also help to make the workshop more attractive to them.

What do you think of that?

Yes, I think this would be great solution. What would be even better is donation button ingame, I mean for example in main menu. When you click on logo, you get more informations of the mod, as homepage etc. Well BIS should more expand this, make there description, guide and big donation button (which would get you to the paypal site or other desired site). And everyone would know where to donate! (Which is the main problem with donations, people are unaware of them)

Or ability to show pop ups in game (like in lite version of karts) with something like "If you really like this content, support it" and another big donation button.

I think that this would be the greatest solution and it would not split the community in any way. And if it's ingame, it doesn't matter if it's on steam workshop or armaholic or pws network, everyone would have the clear choice to donate.

So paid mods, no way. Better donation system, yes!

Edited July 2, 2014 by EvroMalarkey

[ProfTournesol 956]

Have you read what Kju wrote ? Nobody donates. Have you donated recently ?

[evromalarkey 150]

And everyone would know where to donate! (Which is the main problem with donations, people are unaware of them)

@ProfTournesol ^^ As I said. And as a matter of fact yes, I donated recently.

[PuFu 4600]

+1 to kju and profTournesol.

[Tonci87 163]

Currently the donation options are simply not prominent enough and most people aren´t aware of them. I am sure that modders would get a better compensation for their work if that was improved.

[mistyronin 1181]

Currently the donation options are simply not prominent enough and most people aren´t aware of them. I am sure that modders would get a better compensation for their work if that was improved.

Maybe when the addons are implemented inside Steam, an option to "donate" or something like that could help.

[cifordayzserver 119]

I think that BI's intentions are laid out pretty clearly in their own DLC release.... Seasoned Arma modders/players can somewhat easily skirt the need to purchase... "normal" consumers click buy if they want it.

Honestly I think that is a perfect strategy, it makes the purchase a 'donation' for Arma vets, and it's an income stream for modders to motivate them to keep working.

Steam sells tons of totally crap alpha games, some that get entirely abandoned, people are aware of that, so for people on these forums to expect higher standards at less compensation from what is a HUGE talent pool of passionate Arma modders, pushes beyond entitled, and enters the realm of insanity.

ROCK SIMULATOR is a game... likely going to make someone rich... so when people here act like there needs to be improvement or standards for Arma mods, I say maybe it's time to join the real world.... because if you aren't willing to pay for the amazing content you've enjoyed from the community for so long, what makes you think it will be there to play with in the future?

*edit, this also allows the continued support of Armaholic and Play with Six etc. I know that I'd promote DL'ing via Armaholic or PWS, and donating something to them (or not) i/o purchasing it via Steam were I to release content for A3.

Edited July 2, 2014 by CiforDayZServer

[Degman 73]

HORRIBLE IDEA!

I hope this thread will be closed. Modding community is here to make free, enjoyable addons that will be avaible for everyone and I strongly disagree with bringing money in. There are other ways, but leave modding alone and as it is - because it is good this way!

Seriously, where these ridicilous ideas are coming from ? What is the purpose ? If someone wants to earn money, then do it in cooperation and agreement with Bohemia Interactive or use creativity to make your own game.

I agree with 'donation' button, but not with mod/addon prices.

Edited July 2, 2014 by DegmanCRO

[xyberviri 1]

If someone wants to earn money, then do it in cooperation and agreement with Bohemia Interactive or use creativity to make your own game.

Maybe the solution is to allow content developers to LICENSE the engine and make their own stuff, give them the tools to lock their content specific to their "game" and let them release it with a cut.. Along with a tool set so they can use non crap tools.(did you know that BI can export p3ds from Maya with a handy plugin, oh yeah but not for us, common modding community nope nope nope, were not worthy)

I can pay 20.00/mo and get full source access to the unreal engine for a 5% royalty, i can pay 9.00/mo and get cryengine access with no royalties no source though, I can pay 75.00/mo and get full access to unity pro no royalties no source. Torque3d is under MIT license and you can download the full source and dont have to pay anything

I could honestly care less about the "content" in arma 3, let alone most of the games i play, it has to be a really good game for me to not look at the engine.... i dont see "Arma 3" i see "Real Virtuality 4".

Sure, keep arma the way it is... make modders take donations thats fine.... what will end up happening is those content developers are going to hone their skills in arma, prototype with arma, then when they figure out what exactly they want to do they are going to say.... bye bye arma, im taking my content to an engine were i can actually profit.

Thats exactly what everyone i know with an ounce of talent has been doing, mods will always be mods, eventually you get tired of just being a modder, you get tired of un appreciative end users and you eventually you will get tired of BI making money off of your content.

think Half Life 2->Garry's mod->Rust

I hope that every content author slowly realizes that they can actually put their skills to use and leaves this place to go make their own games in another engine. Once you realize that arma is perfect to prototype your idea, you refine it and then leave...

(just please don't make anything with zombies... seriously tired of zombies)

make room for more modders to make new content, its like the circle of life for gamers

for those that are in the same tone heres some engines that have a better license for content authors at a reasonable price:

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d

https://www.unrealengine.com/custom-licensing

http://cryengine.com/get-cryengine

https://store.unity3d.com/

Edited July 2, 2014 by xyberviri

[Degman 73]

Sure, keep arma the way it is... make modders take donations thats fine.... what will end up happening is those content developers are going to hone their skills in arma, prototype with arma, then when they figure out what exactly they want to do they are going to say.... bye bye arma, im taking my content to an engine were i can actually profit.

After 10 years of Arma (starting from OFP), you seem to know the best. :) Community and modding community has survived and will survive without paying money for every f****** addon and mod they download. If thats allowed, then every damn script (especially mods and addons) will cost money (because authors will be exploiting the situation). And what then ? Barely anyone will be having custom content in their game. As I already mentioned, if you want to make some profit - contact BI in order to make a DLC or Stand-Alone game on RV4 engine. Please do not mix that stuff with ADDONS and MODS. These should stay free as they are right now. No money, no shit involded. DLCs and SA are there for such as things.

Everything that author need is "thanks" and (positive/negative) criticism. Those who REALLY are looking for PROFIT (and are CAPABLE of such a job) does not require telling bulls****, trying to change something, whatever point of this thread is in order to do that.

Some people really should learn what it means THE COMMUNITY and what it means TO MAKE PROFIT.

Leave arma modding alone! We dont need your "profit" involded. We create mods and addons because it is a good feeling when u know that someone is enjoying in something that you have created. There already are ways to earn profit (even on RV engine) and there is no need for stupids like this.

[xyberviri 1]

you should read post 118 pretty much sums it up

even think about things like TF2, serious that game has a stupid amount of hats that people pay for

[nodunit 397]

because if you aren't willing to pay for the amazing content you've enjoyed from the community for so long, what makes you think it will be there to play with in the future?

Because people make content for different reasons (IE for ourselves in our spare time, usually for our own reasons and then we decide to share it with others)

and when you bring money into it so too do you bring standards and schemes to cheat people out of their money.

I see it all the time, folks asking if they can donate to a project still in WIP phase, it would be akin to throwing money at kickstarter..you don't know for sure wether or not the project will see the light of day.

Secondly lets think about how much original content there really is, so many folks want to port Arma 2 stuff over to A3 and this may make me sound like an ass but I don't believe that is worthy of a paycheck, because despite you putting your time into moving it you're doing it with someone elses work....same goes for reskins, or models pulled from free websites. (And speaking of others work we then get into the whole code/script ownership debate)

When things are free there is not much need to harass or judge harshly..when you bring money into it suddenly everyone is either your business partner or they are a potential threat to your profit.

As an example I would happily donate my apache model to any mod that wants to use it if it is legit, but if money were to come into it I'd slam that door faster than a witness on someones doorstep.

I'd want to stay ahead of the curb, so if someone asked "How did you do that?" I'd ignore them, because they could make something that I could have made money from.

Harsh and it sounds selfish sure, but thats how it goes when you involve a material such as money...and I'm going to sound even worse when I say that the average consumer is an idiot, people will buy things just to have it regardless of wether it is stolen even if facts are placed in front of them...and then why bother putting in all the time and effort to make your own stuff when you can just rip something from another game and sell that? Oh who cares if its stolen, its supply and demand..people want it badly enough, they'll buy it.

Edited July 3, 2014 by NodUnit

[meshcarver 12]

Hey guys,

Just thought I'd put in some thoughts on this too now it's been reheated.

Don't expect to find answers here, but just my thoughts around it as I'm finding it painfully difficult to find time to develop my own mod now.

I'm actually quite loathe to write ANYTHING as it happens as I don't want to inadvertently say something a huge swathe of this community viscously disagrees with and be forever banished as a heretic..!

I value my little place in these forums and wouldn't want to jeopardise it for any reason as there are a lot of good people here who have helped both the community and me with modding and I don't want to tread on their toes!

I'm not just mentioning this in passing- it's worth getting it out here as I think there are a lot of people who are passionate about modding ARMA3 but are not fully equipped with the information around this topic (myself included!) and the history of it's modding community which is pretty well established. That can make it a challenge to speak out your thoughts regarding this.

With that out the way..!

I have over 16 years experience in the games industry as a concept/2D/3D/environment/assets etc artist and have worked at many places and am currently freelancing.

I have been burnt out and back again. It is a truly horrible state to get yourself into by the way- it's not some little thing. Apart from the industry temporarily or permanently losing another creative force, it's pretty shocking when you get to a point that you don't want to do anymore of what you've loved doing since you were a kid- drawing basically- and worry you might not ever want to again.

This is relevant, as I noticed a few guys mentioned more industry pros coming into this recently and perhaps they are/will be burning out or just plain exhausted after a full 8/9/10/11/12 hour day sat in front of their monitors modelling and texturing, sometimes for free too in the industry!!!

And then- to not turn off the PC but to immediately start working on their own mod is a huge effort.

I can see how it would be easier for someone who works say, at a supermarket stacking shelves or pushing trolleys around the car park (of which I did for three or four years and it was great!) to arrive home and then turn on the PC and start work on their mod. It's like two separate jobs then, as opposed to continuously sitting at your desk for 16 hours or more.

Reading these posts I can see there's a huge mix of thoughts and (most welcome!) ideas about this topic but through it all is a thread of uncertainty because of the extra problems money can introduce.

I am currently trying to create a large 100% unique terrain for ARMA3, and the ONLY thing that is again stopping its development is money. Nothing else. This lack of money hits my time on the mod, because I need to work RL freelance to make money to live and fund my own mod- but in doing so have effectively lost the past 6 months on it. This is the latest "big hit" I've taken on time- one of many sometimes smaller hits.

But they all add up and drag the entire process to an almost standstill.

Most evenings I stop FL work at 9 or 10 and do 1 or 2 hours on my mod but by then I am so incredibly tired, and know I have to produce work for a paying client the next morning so goto bed.

This process also affects the consistency of a mod- if you're having to grab little snippets of tired desperate time here and there then that is probably what it'll look like in the final product.

To cut to the chase, I do not know the solution to this, but I do know a huge part of creating a mod is being enabled by money to free up time from other commitments and allowing you to spend as much time as possible on it if you're serious about creating a AAA mod here.

So, if there was a situation were you knew that you would be compensated for your time, then maybe that would help people lean more to committing themselves to making a quality mod (or not so quality, as there would also be a draw for people who want to make a quick buck for its own sake?).

My stance on it is I am doing this because I love it- I love ARMA and I love the STALKER aesthetic and to see them both married together in a unique form is a dream come true for me. I get my kicks from working on it.

I am worried that because of a lack of time (money) not that development will cease, but that I'll simply take too long at this rate and that quality will suffer in the final product aswell.

So, while there are people who just want to charge for mods because they can, there are also people who would like somehow be compensated because it enables the mod in the first place- not just to "make money" but to be supported to make your mod a reality and nothing more.

I know this is a sort of personal take on this subject, but I thought it'd help as it could maybe show some people who have never modded or are thinking of modding what is required and what it takes to make a mod.

I think basically it's the modders lament: "It's something that you do in your own free time...".

Time is a LOT more precious and has greater value than money ultimately- you can never get your time back so chose to spend it wisely.

Edited July 3, 2014 by meshcarver

[Dwarden 1125]

I will chime in, but it will be sort simple and offtopic and unofficial :

there will be always those who will make mods free

there will be always some who will make mods and see into donations or occasional gains

there will be always authors who do it for fame while other authors just are happy someone else use or expand theirs work

and in the end there will be those who will try to make money

it's not like because of one approach the other ways will cease to exist and the peoples aims and own moral codex will all of sudden vanish