Medic / wounding System

[Tonci87 163]

I see that a lot of People, myself included, are not happy with the current system.

We feel that it is a regression from the A2 First Aid modules for various reasons.

Let me quote a few very good ideas to improve it.

Indeed! I think that just having bleeding as something that will gradually hurt and kill the player and the FAK's mainly existing to stop said bleeding would already increase its usability and authenticity very much.

The whole battlefield medical assistance feature really is borked. I see alot of complaining, much of it justified (yet rarely done in a constructive manner), about many features, but I believe this area has not received enough attention by the community, i.e. with the exception of some fans/users/players alot of people are requesting not so urgent stuff, such as being able to deploy bipods or the lack of fixed wing aircraft for NATO and CSAT. The aircraft will eventually come, ability to deploy bipods was never a feature of the series (do not confuse this statement as me not wanting them because I would love to) but IIRC the medical system is not going to change. Worse, it is actually a regression from ARMA2.

This is an huge mistake, because this aspect of the game is out of place and feels so non-ARMA, even going as far contradicting its very nature, making it reminiscent of titles such as Battlefield or Call of Duty. By the way, is there a ticket about it?

However, considering that I bought an Alpha/Beta and thus I'm a game tester, I feel that I should point a solution to this problem. This is of course, my opinion and you know how those work, they are likes arses, everyone has one.

First Aid Kit:

This Item should only stop bleeding, not heal the character (although healing it by 5-10% would do no harm)

Medical Kit:

Should heal but not to 100% but rather to 50-75% and of course it should stop bleeding. I also believe (and I think I'm pretty much alone in this regard) that it should have a limited amount of use, 20 times at maximum yet rechargeable at specific objects (for example a medical tent or medical supply box) or vehicles (ambulances for example). This would create a new spectrum of the logistical chain, where medical supplies matter as much as ammo and fuel.

I feel that BIS should put an improved medical system on TOP Priority to get this finished ASAP. If they improve it later many Mission makers (including BIS) will have to redo their Missions. The sooner this gets done, the better.

[V-zwo_Null 10]

Player setDamage 0.99;

set Time accel to 4x and look whats happening. Nothing will happening.

It should at least not be able to stand up. But it is.

Before we get medical care we should have a reasonable wounding system.

Edited August 14, 2013 by V-zwo_Null

[dmarkwick 261]

I agree with this. A good base start for the most simple implementation (let's face it, anything that represents a great deal of work will not be considered at this stage) would be:

FAKs to be game difficulty-dependent.

FAKs to only stop bleeding.

Bleeding to be implemented :)

Medic and patient to be in a (reasonable) time-locked animation, but break-outable.

More movement-based restrictions (prone when shot in the leg/sufficiently wounded etc)

[maddogx 13]

I'm still wondering what the new bleeding-related scripting commands are/were supposed to be used for. (isBleeding, getBleedingRemaining, setBleedingRemaining).

They do kind of work, in the sense that getting shot will cause isBleeding to return true, getBleedingRemaining will return a time value etc. but other than that, they don't actually seem to do anything.

[Alwarren 2767]

I'm still wondering what the new bleeding-related scripting commands are/were supposed to be used for. (isBleeding, getBleedingRemaining, setBleedingRemaining).

They do kind of work, in the sense that getting shot will cause isBleeding to return true, getBleedingRemaining will return a time value etc. but other than that, they don't actually seem to do anything.

I think what they do is give the time remaining were the player actually leaves a blood trail.

Anyway, my idea to unscrew the medic system (at least make it better than it is now):

- Introduce bleeding. That is, when you are hit, you start to slowly drain health at a rate that somewhat reflects the amount of damage you received. Large wounds cause faster bleeding.

- A FAK can be used to stop the bleeding. As an option, it might heal a bit of the damage, but not more than 10%.

- Getting treated by a medic stops bleeding and heals you either fully. Healing time for the medic is proportional to the damage the unit has received.

These aren't big changes. Of course I don't know how easy they would be to implement, but that would go a long long way to making the First Aid System more realistic and give the medic his central health care role back.

[dmarkwick 261]

I'm still wondering what the new bleeding-related scripting commands are/were supposed to be used for. (isBleeding, getBleedingRemaining, setBleedingRemaining).

They do kind of work, in the sense that getting shot will cause isBleeding to return true, getBleedingRemaining will return a time value etc. but other than that, they don't actually seem to do anything.

My guess is that they're the development remnants of a proposed medic system that is on the shelf. But, the commands remain, I guess they can be easily utilised by anyone who wishes to :)

[Varanon 892]

Before we get medical care we should have a reasonable wounding system.

Those go hand-in-hand. For example, if bleeding is in the wounding system, then the medical care needs to have some way to counteract it. So I wouldn't see it as a different entity but rather a complete package.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

Medic and patient to be in a (reasonable) time-locked animation, but break-outable.

Yes, please... could be as simple as pressing the left mouse button once (like when you got your gun lowered, you click and the gun comes up).

[Alwarren 2767]

My guess is that they're the development remnants of a proposed medic system that is on the shelf. But, the commands remain, I guess they can be easily utilised by anyone who wishes to :)

No, they aren't. You can check in game, as long as isBleeding returns true, the character visually bleeds and leaves blood on the ground. It only lasts for a second or two. You do not lose health from it though.

[Varanon 892]

I think what they do is give the time remaining were the player actually leaves a blood trail.

This. Tested it with one of the earlier builds.

Anyway, my idea to unscrew the medic system (at least make it better than it is now):

- Introduce bleeding. That is, when you are hit, you start to slowly drain health at a rate that somewhat reflects the amount of damage you received. Large wounds cause faster bleeding.

- A FAK can be used to stop the bleeding. As an option, it might heal a bit of the damage, but not more than 10%.

- Getting treated by a medic stops bleeding and heals you either fully. Healing time for the medic is proportional to the damage the unit has received.

These aren't big changes. Of course I don't know how easy they would be to implement, but that would go a long long way to making the First Aid System more realistic and give the medic his central health care role back.

I would also add that if you receive an amount of damage in one go that exceeds a certain threshold, you go into shock (incapacitated state). Maybe add this as a module like in Arma 2. Getting out of this state requires either a full medic, or another soldier with a FAK (or another soldier that can apply a FAK you carry yourself)

[dmarkwick 261]

No, they aren't. You can check in game, as long as isBleeding returns true, the character visually bleeds and leaves blood on the ground. It only lasts for a second or two. You do not lose health from it though.

Well they can be utilised in that they can be used by modders in scripts: so if a player returns true for bleeding every X seconds, the unit's health can be altered to reflect bleeding over time.

[tpw 2315]

Well they can be utilised in that they can be used by modders in scripts: so if a player returns true for bleeding every X seconds, the unit's health can be altered to reflect bleeding over time.

Precisely. I've been running this from my init.sqf for a while:

while  {true} do {
{
if (isbleeding _x) then
{
_x setdamage ((damage _x) + 0.03);
}; 
} foreach allunits;
sleep 30;
};

[Alwarren 2767]

Precisely. I've been running this from my init.sqf for a while:

Does this actually catch on? Last time I checked, the bleeding was only up to a second or two, so if you sleep 30 it would mostly go unnoticed; unless the bleeding has been largely extended over the last dev builds.

The question remains, can the FAK's be neutralized without having to remove them? Is the healing a script that can be overridden, or is it hard coded?

[tpw 2315]

Does this actually catch on? Last time I checked, the bleeding was only up to a second or two, so if you sleep 30 it would mostly go unnoticed; unless the bleeding has been largely extended over the last dev builds.

The question remains, can the FAK's be neutralized without having to remove them? Is the healing a script that can be overridden, or is it hard coded?

I've never had anyone bleed to death, but certainly they've left blood trails for quite a while. When in doubt, just add setbleedingremaining with each pass of the loop :)

I haven't looked into the medkits, this thread has got me thinking about it though.

[Alwarren 2767]

I've never had anyone bleed to death, but certainly they've left blood trails for quite a while. When in doubt, just add setbleedingremaining with each pass of the loop :)

Just tried it again, and the bleeding counter is well over 30 seconds now; maybe it also depends on the amount of damage. An option would be a damage event handler, but I don't know how much lag would be introduced by that, and especially in MP that would be bad, obviously. Still, I dislike that it stops bleeding at all by itself; it shouldn't realy.

I haven't looked into the medkits, this thread has got me thinking about it though.

Hehe good :)

[Varanon 892]

I've never had anyone bleed to death, but certainly they've left blood trails for quite a while. When in doubt, just add setbleedingremaining with each pass of the loop :)

I haven't looked into the medkits, this thread has got me thinking about it though.

independent of the actual bleeding time, this might or might not damage you deepening on when (relative to the 30 second clock the loop runs) you are hit. If the time is below 30 seconds, you might go completely unpunished, and if it is longer than 30 seconds, you might get hit once or twice with the damage. So in computer terms, the distribution is not "fair".

In essence, this would have to be implemented by watchdogs attached to every unit that automatically apply damage over time. This can be achieved with scripting, of course, but at the cost of a very high server load (maybe FSMs would help, and in theory, it can also run client side, with all the hacky implications).

I think the only workable and fair solution is an engine-side implementation, I would say.

[tpw 2315]

I think the only workable and fair solution is an engine-side implementation, I would say.

I mentioned my code simply to confirm DMarkwick's suggestion that the bleeding commands are able to be used by scripters to derive a bit of additonal realism. There are 101 ways to skin the bleeding/health cat. But I agree, with this and so many other missing features, I'd rather them implemented by devs at engine level.

[metalcraze 290]

Modders could and did add bleeding mechanics since OFP without any new commands.

However mods are not a solution.

Also we need an incapacitated state or at least one on par with ArmA2's first aid module.

When even at 0.99 damage your soldier can fight normally like he's not one small step from dying something is really wrong.

And this is something that BIS doesn't even need to do from scratch. DayZ SA even has animations for wounding. So if DayZ can use ArmA3 stuff, why not vice versa?

Unless of course BIS goal here is to appeal to casual player first I don't see any reason not to take DayZ SA mechanics that were refined and tested for a year by more than a million of players.

Edited August 14, 2013 by metalcraze

[Variable 322]

Definitely a setback from Arma 2 First Aid Module. We played with it in no-respawn missions for years and had no issues with it. Since it's not forced upon the mission editor, who can choose whether to use it or not, I don't see why it's not in Arma 3.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Variable

[enex 11]

To me it seems like this is the most important feature that would keep me from playing arma 3 along with community.

Shot in torso, hands:

Bleeding -> flashing screen red -> if not treated -> going unconscious

Bleeding -> stopping bleeding -> ((in pain (reduces accuracy white flashing screen on a sides))

((Medic -> morphine -> killing pain (making you combat ready again))

Shot in legs:

Bleeding -> flashing screen red -> if not treated -> going unconscious (black screen, passing out)

you can only crawl

((Medic -> morphine -> killing pain (making you combat ready again))

Medic can fix you fully with IFAK, or medkit.

Would be pain that requires morphine too much, too deep medical system?

[progamer 14]

The fak should be a bunch of bandaids and the ability to craft a splint, even with a splint you should not be as mobile as you are with full health.

[zooloo75 834]

Precisely. I've been running this from my init.sqf for a while:

while  {true} do {
{
if (isbleeding _x) then
{
_x setdamage ((damage _x) + 0.03);
}; 
} foreach allunits;
sleep 30;
};

I can't imagine any unit dying from bleedouts or even losing health with this.

This should work better.

{
[_x] spawn 
{
	private "_unit";
	_unit = _this select 0;
	while {alive _unit} do
	{
		if(isBleeding _unit) then
		{
			_unit setDamage ((damage _unit) + 0.005);
		};

		sleep 1;
	};
};
} forEach allUnits;

Edited August 15, 2013 by zooloo75

[dmarkwick 261]

I can't imagine any unit dying from bleedouts or even losing health with this.

This should work better.

It's all a matter of how you wish the game to play out. With TPW's, you lose 15% health each 5 minutes, calculated each 30 seconds.

In yours, you lose 30% of your health each 5 minutes, calculated each second.

Each has their charms :)

[Beagle 684]

Now we can see...not everything from DayZ was bad!

[eXpouk 10]

If they managed to get gameplay affected from where you were hit that would be awesome. Getting shot in the arm would render you unable to fire your rifle, legs unable to run etc.

[Alwarren 2767]

It's all a matter of how you wish the game to play out. With TPW's, you lose 15% health each 5 minutes, calculated each 30 seconds.

In yours, you lose 30% of your health each 5 minutes, calculated each second.

Each has their charms :)

Well, it's a gunshot wound. These things tend to bleed. What I would think would be appropriate to base the bleeding on the damage you received. A graze will not make you die, but a bullet to the chest is more likely to bleed you out faster. But, again, this is something the engine should do, not a script.

Now we can see...not everything from DayZ was bad!

I'd venture to say that DayZ standalone will have a far superior medical system than Arma 3 - even down to limping.

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 ----------

If they managed to get gameplay affected from where you were hit that would be awesome. Getting shot in the arm would render you unable to fire your rifle, legs unable to run etc.

That's more or less the case, only that the penalties are not very severe. Getting shot in the arms means your view/aim will sway more (hold breath and go prone to compensate almost entirely). You will no longer be able to run or sprint with a leg wound. In Arma 2, getting a severe leg wound would make you crawl, and with the first aid modules placed on the map, a sufficiently good hit would put you down into agony state where you could only roll around on the floor and crawl, but your possibilities were severely limited (no more aiming down sight, no more reloading, only crawl forward).

I liked that system. It made you try not to get hit. It made the medic be a central figure in your squad.