AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Shadowmane 10]

So, to you, only the feedback tracker is constructive? Well, I checked and I reported 25 issues. You reported... Let me count.... One.

If someone complains about how the AI is not self sufficient enough, it is actually FAR more consttuctive than flat out denying the problem.

What you are doing is nailing the parrot to it's perch, rattling the cage and saying it's still moving...

Sent from my Xperia Z1

"This parrot is dead deceased it is a parrot no more" "No no its just resting"

[NeuroFunker 11]

So, to you, only the feedback tracker is constructive? Well, I checked and I reported 25 issues. You reported... Let me count.... One.

If someone complains about how the AI is not self sufficient enough, it is actually FAR more consttuctive than flat out denying the problem.

What you are doing is nailing the parrot to it's perch, rattling the cage and saying it's still moving...

Sent from my Xperia Z1

and what is constructive, saying im tired of commanding ai as it it now, give me micromanegment. So what?

[best2nd 10]

The only time I micromanage AI is when defending.

And yes I agree. The AI needs to be more advanced but I highly doubt that we'll see an improvement soon.

[Shadowmane 10]

like i said, i'm not.

I agree, there is no limit for perfection, ofcourse there could be something new, usefull, better working. Im not claiming to be a military expert, but you are the leader, they are listening to you! On the battlefield, mid combat, people tend to act not adequate, freezing while being fire on, especially being at combat for first time, geting overagressive, forgeting to take cover, presetning theirselves for incoming enemy fire, ignoring squad leader commands and many more difficulties, similar to what we are having in arma with bots. Havn't you tought about that?

If we were fighting with the same squad all the time and had a system in place that meant new guys were green for the first encounter then yes. However that's not the case the failings in the AI are just that failings and it could do with some fixing/tweaking.

[Alwarren 2766]

like i said, i'm not.

No, you posted it as a question, for effect only, against better knowledge. But let's not dwell on it.

Micro managing, i have no idea what you mean by this, care to explain, how do you imagine it and it should work?

It surprises me that you attack me for something that you didn't even understand what I meant... You could have asked for clarification first and barked afterwards, don't you think?

Let's see, my post was in reply to someone claiming it is lack of command skills that your guys die in a mission. To which I replied, some people don't want to micro-manage their AI.

What I mean with that is:

I don't want to have to order my AI to go into cover. They should do that by themselves. Still, you see them stand in the open during a firefight and at best go prone, especially when they don't know where the shots are coming from. Just put yourself on a hill as a sniper and put down a squad somewhere and shoot at them.

The AI should rearm themselves. Right now, you have to explicitly tell them to go pick up a rifle or new ammo, and that alone is difficult because "pick up that rifle" might make them run out of cover and half-way across the battlefield.

When it finally comes to commanding, AI is prone to ignore commands. "Disengage" is the primary example. I would expect them to, well, disengage, but they don't. Ordering them into a truck or chopper during combat should be handled with priority but they do not. They will eventually get into it, but only through a complex dance of moving around.

Try this: Put down a squad with you as the leader, and a Ghost Hawk. Order you men in. See what they do? They run towards a point in front of and to the left or right of the chopper, then run in. Even if they are standing right next to it, they will go through this routine. In a firefight, they usually die at this point.

The user interface isn't very helpful either.

There are a lot of these issues, some minor, some major. They require you to constantly keep track of your AI, because most of the time they won't be able to do something on their own.

Another good example of a broken command is "Copy my Stance". This will not copy kneeling, only standing or prone, and even worse, they prefer standing over prone when you are kneeling. So if you want to stay hidden behind a wall, you have to specifically order them to stay crouched, since Copy my Stance will not work as you expect.

These are the micro-management things that annoy me (and I am quite sure a lot of other people). They have been brought up over and over, and I am quite sure that the CIT is already full of them since they've been part of it as long as I can remember.

I see the problem with streamlining the interface, since Arma already has a ton of key bindings. But some of the crucial AI management functions SHOULD be accessible via simple keypresses, or at least in a shorter way. Just as an example, holding a key and moving the mouse on a pie menu is way faster than Tilde Key, 4, "Get into MH-60". Yes, most of the time I get the "Board" cursor when I hold my command key, but that will board them randomly, and we all know how dangerous it is to let an AI drive.

The clunkiness of these controls (which, unfortunately did NOT change from earlier Arma games in spite of the accessibility creed) plus the general issues with AI make AI management more challenging than it should be, resulting in a focus on pressing the right buttons as opposed to doing the right thing.

And please note that I am not saying anything new here, just reiterating old criticism that has already been raised several times over the past ten years.

But here we are at the problem, it has become impossible to say anything without getting flak for it. Your reply to my post could have been "can you elaborate what you mean with micro-management", instead you chose to go confrontational.

[windies 11]

Err I was speaking directly to Neurofunker about his response to the other guy I wasn't defending him. As for being snippy iv made a grand total of 3 posts now 4 I don't think Iv much of an opportunity for being snippy yet lol.

You do realize that I was directing most of that to Neurofunker himself right? I was agreeing with you and quoted your post to agree with you. Goes to show you how text is devoid of emotion and how people read responses based on their own.

[Alwarren 2766]

The only time I micromanage AI is when defending.

And yes I agree. The AI needs to be more advanced but I highly doubt that we'll see an improvement soon.

The interface itself could and should be overhauled. Pointing at a transport should give me the "get in cursor", but it should allow me to qualify where to get in. AI will automatically fill slots starting at the driver/pilot, gunner, etc. So if I as the teamleader want to take a certain spot, I need to get in FIRST and then as everyone else in, or I need to use the action menu. What it COULD do is allow me to point at the chopper and click my left mouse button. If I release it immediately, it will order everyone in as it is now. If I move it, it will give me a circular menu to "Get in as Cargo", "Get in as Driver", "Get in as Gunner" etc.

Another example: You have two Little Birds. You want to order your squad into both. Usually you go via the "Get In" cursor, at which your guy will say "Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, board that vehicle". If you then repeat that command on the other Little Bird, it goes "Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, board that vehicle". That's right, you order the same guys in. Unless you select the other half of your squad separately (which might require an F11/F12 inbetween) you need to wait until they are in.

I know I am leaving the area of AI here now, but please bear with me since I think it is both important and related. The whole of the Arma series is full of these little things. I remember an interview I've seen in the very beginning with Jay Crowe and he kept repeating the wish to make Arma more accessible without dumbing it down. In certain aspects, I think that worked. Inventory management has vastly improved, for example. But a lot of the old stuff is still in. I do think it is wrong to assume that people formerly scorned Arma only for the clunkiness of the movement. There are other aspects to it, and the Action menu and squad control is one of these. A lot of functions are hidden behind walls of text; in that respect it reminds me a lot of the X series.

Well, maybe it is time to open an "Accessibility" thread...

[windies 11]

The interface itself could and should be overhauled. Pointing at a transport should give me the "get in cursor", but it should allow me to qualify where to get in. AI will automatically fill slots starting at the driver/pilot, gunner, etc. So if I as the teamleader want to take a certain spot, I need to get in FIRST and then as everyone else in, or I need to use the action menu. What it COULD do is allow me to point at the chopper and click my left mouse button. If I release it immediately, it will order everyone in as it is now. If I move it, it will give me a circular menu to "Get in as Cargo", "Get in as Driver", "Get in as Gunner" etc.

Another example: You have two Little Birds. You want to order your squad into both. Usually you go via the "Get In" cursor, at which your guy will say "Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, board that vehicle". If you then repeat that command on the other Little Bird, it goes "Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, board that vehicle". That's right, you order the same guys in. Unless you select the other half of your squad separately (which might require an F11/F12 inbetween) you need to wait until they are in.

I know I am leaving the area of AI here now, but please bear with me since I think it is both important and related. The whole of the Arma series is full of these little things. I remember an interview I've seen in the very beginning with Jay Crowe and he kept repeating the wish to make Arma more accessible without dumbing it down. In certain aspects, I think that worked. Inventory management has vastly improved, for example. But a lot of the old stuff is still in. I do think it is wrong to assume that people formerly scorned Arma only for the clunkiness of the movement. There are other aspects to it, and the Action menu and squad control is one of these. A lot of functions are hidden behind walls of text; in that respect it reminds me a lot of the X series.

Well, maybe it is time to open an "Accessibility" thread...

Love the radial context menu idea. Truth be told, ArmA's action menu UI and interaction needs a serious overhaul and has needed it for quite awhile.

[Smurf 12]

The whole commanding interface is arcaic, filled with unecessary or useless commands, often too "deep" and you can't even comunicate with the AI when your are not squad leading (or baby sitting). Going for something simpler would make the game much better, IMO.

[Variable 322]

Im not claiming to be a military expert, but you are the leader, they are listening to you! On the battlefield, mid combat, people tend to act not adequate, freezing while being fire on, especially being at combat for first time, geting overagressive, forgeting to take cover, presetning theirselves for incoming enemy fire, ignoring squad leader commands and many more difficulties, similar to what we are having in arma with bots. Havn't you tought about that?

Thanks for pointing this out! So the AI robotic dances, lack of any clue what to do on their own, in ability to move fast to cover or into vehicles when told to, are all actually FEATURES! Simulating combat confusion under fire! This is a great new perspective on the game! I wonder how many development effort BI put into developing this!

Seriously, the levels of ridiculousness you reach in trying to cancel criticism are soaring, and it seems like it's getting worse. You need to stop being a self proclaimed BIS defender knight. The forums are here for people to voice their concerns. Stop disturbing them. If you have nothing constructive to contribute lay off of the reply button. Such behavior does not help the community, and surely not BIS.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Thanks for pointing this out! So the AI robotic dances, lack of any clue what to do on their own, in ability to move fast to cover or into vehicles when told to, are all actually FEATURES! Simulating combat confusion under fire! This is a great new perspective on the game! I wonder how many development effort BI put into developing this!

Seriously, the levels of ridiculousness you reach in trying to cancel criticism are soaring, and it seems like it's getting worse. You need to stop being a self proclaimed BIS defender knight. The forums are here for people to voice their concerns. Stop disturbing them. If you have nothing constructive to contribute lay off of the reply button. Such behavior does not help the community, and surely not BIS.

enough said, there is still ignore button, for anyone who doesn't like to see anyones posts. Shalom etc.

[Variable 322]

enough said, there is still ignore button, for anyone who doesn't like to see anyones posts. Shalom etc.

I'm sorry but that's not good enough. Me ignoring you will not help the discussions you derail. We care about this game, we care about BIS and we want to help them getting better. You forum presence and your blind fanboyism is getting in the way, and THAT needs to change.

Please, really, stop attacking players that raise valid points.

[fabrizio_t 58]

The AI are almost always too good at shooting. The issue is they often:

1. don't shoot back at all or
   
2. don't take cover appropriately (and use smoke in a pinch) and
   
3. are relatively unaggressive under fire, typically just staying roughly in place and wandering around as they're slowly shot down, rather than having move/attack orders created dynamically (if this is the case, I've never seen it in action at least) and truly engaging the enemy, especially when they are vastly superior numerically
   

don't shoot back at all or

Yes. Reason being they're not even aware being under fire.

Their senses are very limited: they hear just (very) close ricochet and explosions, or detect units firing nearby.

They don't hear bullets whizzling by.

don't take cover appropriately (and use smoke in a pinch)

Movement to cover collides with other higher priority routines: (1) formation, which is too hardened in combat, (2) targeting, units use to lock on targets as top priority (and they stop moving to take aim).

Relaxing formation would help. Revising priorities would help aswell.

Sometimes units deploy smoke via grenade launcher, but that's a bug: they think they're using regular grenades ;)

are relatively unaggressive under fire

Yes they are not aggressive. They don't cover other threatened units, for instance.

The problem, again, is they lack situational awareness.

Edited January 21, 2014 by fabrizio_T

[Bouben 3]

Why don't soldiers low on ammo pick some of nearby body's ?. Also there doesn't seem to be a way to order men under my command to pick up ammo could someone please help ?.

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

This in every military game iv played that features night missions the enemy ( even when not equipped with NV ) can see just as well as in full daylight.

There is a bug with rearming. Some rearm commands are simply ignored a second after being given. Ordered subordinate says "Ready" but in reality he does nothing. I did not reported it on feedback tracker so don't know if someone else already noticed. This is quite old tho.

[Shadowmane 10]

There is a bug with rearming. Some rearm commands are simply ignored a second after being given. Ordered subordinate says "Ready" but in reality he does nothing. I did not reported it on feedback tracker so don't know if someone else already noticed. This is quite old tho.

Cheers

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

You do realize that I was directing most of that to Neurofunker himself right? I was agreeing with you and quoted your post to agree with you. Goes to show you how text is devoid of emotion and how people read responses based on their own.

Yeah sorry about that I'm at home from work ill and my brain is not quite firing on all cylinders.

[PrienU24 10]

Enviado desde mi GT-S5830M usando Tapatalk 2

[windies 11]

Cheers

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

Yeah sorry about that I'm at home from work ill and my brain is not quite firing on all cylinders.

All good.

[Bouben 3]

The whole commanding interface is arcaic, filled with unecessary or useless commands, often too "deep" and you can't even comunicate with the AI when your are not squad leading (or baby sitting). Going for something simpler would make the game much better, IMO.

For example distance values (similar to targets menu) in action menu (rearm, inventory etc.) would be a good start...

[KeyCat 131]

This in every military game iv played that features night missions the enemy ( even when not equipped with NV ) can see just as well as in full daylight.

Not the case in current version of A3 at least (or later versions of A2:OA). I did some simple tests a few days ago and without NVG's enemy AI have big problems spotting you if it's pitch black. I could walk towards an enemy and he spotted me at approx 3 m and after that it took a while for him to identify me as foe, see screen shots posted earlier in this thread.

If you have a specific repro showing otherwise please share.

/KC

[Bouben 3]

So I tested the AI spotting ability in the most dense fog the game can offer and my AI infantry commander, while moving, could spot stationary enemy while he could not be seen nor identified at all. I think the fog spotting configs should be tweaked.

[fortun 14]

The AI is so plain stupid after using it for some days now. It makes me sick.. I also did a video on it now how the AI just don't care at all or spots anything while looking

Later after the video, i also set him to run to them. He only spotted 2 of them, they were like 5 guys of them shooting from maybe 50-100 meters away..

Also noticed that AI is drawing the pistol in the most dumbest situation EVER... This also happend later in the mission, i sat him on a mountain, scouting enemys down below 500 M away. I spotted them but he still had his Pistol and never changed back to his primary weapon. He were just laying there on his fat ass doing nothing while having enemys shooting at us and i spotted them. He didn't care. Just laying there doing exactly nothing. Also i sent him to another guy that was shooting at him in daylight, shooting at us. When he were 20 meters away, he eventually spotted him and killed the enemy. And it was morning light (like 06.00) plain sight.

The AI needs a real real revamp and much work on. As of now, they're just a burden.

[Tyl3r99 41]

The AI is so plain stupid after using it for some days now. It makes me sick.. I also did a video on it now how the AI just don't care at all or spots anything while looking

Later after the video, i also set him to run to them. He only spotted 2 of them, they were like 5 guys of them shooting from maybe 50-100 meters away..

Also noticed that AI is drawing the pistol in the most dumbest situation EVER... This also happend later in the mission, i sat him on a mountain, scouting enemys down below 500 M away. I spotted them but he still had his Pistol and never changed back to his primary weapon. He were just laying there on his fat ass doing nothing while having enemys shooting at us and i spotted them. He didn't care. Just laying there doing exactly nothing. Also i sent him to another guy that was shooting at him in daylight, shooting at us. When he were 20 meters away, he eventually spotted him and killed the enemy. And it was morning light (like 06.00) plain sight.

The AI needs a real real revamp and much work on. As of now, they're just a burden.

you sir need an award

[Kerc Kasha 102]

I noticed during episode 2 that the ai sometimes don't even react to being shot now.

I was doing scouting stuff at the vet clinic and shot about 400m away at two soldiers one of them got hit and he just stood there not giving a shit, shot him again and he dropped. His buddy didn't care, he followed the same apathy as his friend.

I could understand this reaction if I was missing and using a silenced weapon or something but I was hitting them with a loud weapon and they didn't give a shit.

[maturin 12]

Yeah, I was able to kill two soldiers by hitting them with three or four bullets apiece. They just stood there, flinching at the impacts.

It was nighttime, just like in that video posted above. During the day they go prone like normal people.

[Bouben 3]

Yeah, I was able to kill two soldiers by hitting them with three or four bullets apiece. They just stood there, flinching at the impacts.

It was nighttime, just like in that video posted above. During the day they go prone like normal people.

So is this a recent bug or something older already?