AI Discussion (dev branch)

[krycek 349]

Not sure what happened with this dev cycle but A3 surely looks like some sort of 5 years Early Access experiment, not the worst EA titles but at best those that are somehow playable and can have some enjoyment but far from calling them RC. Looking at their other big project starting with 2013 you can already see a pattern. My crystal ball is in service but those waiting for a miracle with A4 AI could be in for a surprise and a very bad deja vu at the end of that game dev cycle.

 

There's a limit on how much you can blame it on the engine considering I have mods for A2 that were released on 1.00 and still worked on 1.63 OA last I checked. It's not even only about mods here but about broken vanilla stuff with each big update,  new features that AI can barely use let alone basic stuff like driving. The fact that we're still talking about convoy problems or vehicles driving erratically that it's a matter of luck if it won't break it's wheels in a fence somewhere now in 2018 speaks volumes about how this current Arma version is(soon to be was) treated.

That driver breaking the vehicle wheels or randomly deciding to jump of a bridge on Tanoa then have to walk 4km? Totally normal in A3.

Also mod friendly? Yeah right, maybe cosmetics and crap but A3 is the first game in the series where I try to keep mods to a minimum besides some big ones like CUP or FFAA. Every big update I have to ask myself "ok I wonder what broke now". Just to mention here the latest big reiteration/update of A3 that brought Tanks Dlc which broke lots of mods so unless mod authors are still around (or even want ) to update their work again well then tough luck.

A3 is the least mod friendly game in the entire OFP\Arma titles if you don't count that Life junk. Quite funny when you consider mods made this series what it is.

 

Or just stuff like high tech jets getting blasted to pieces by a peasant with a 0.20 skill and a .50 cal on a technical because there's still that lethal combo of ground gunner with sniper accuracy and morons flying that will dive and slow down to the extreme.So nice that we have sensors ,so bad the AI still flies like WW2. Or the single AI setting for all sides and so on.

Stuff that becomes really apparent when you make missions more complex than "4-man sf team walk 2km kill 10-20 dudes and maybe add a vehicle or two max". It's like receiving a huge Lego set that you can build an entire city together with vehicles and everything else and you find out that 50% of pieces are broken.

This ain't no sandbox, just smoke&mirrors that sometimes works as advertised. What's worse is that it seems that now at the end of A3 life it seems things either become even more broken or abandoned.

[nkenny 1057]

After having played a bit with dynamically attaching Laser Targets to objects (code attached), I wish this interface could be built into the editor and extended.   It would be of tremendous benefit for scenario flow and design  if we could get some DUMMY TARGETS that would trigger certain scenario behaviour.  Better still if these could be dynamically scripted, transformed, moved, and etc.,  via the usual interfaces. 

The dummies would be super visible (no stealth) and highly lucrative (target priority) 

Types: 

Infantry target -- A dummy object which entices the AI to suppress the location
Vehicle target --  A dummy object which attracts AT weapons and cannonfire  
Artillery target -- Have nearby artillery dynamically find and hammer this location 
Laser Designator -- Simply making it an object in the editor. 

 

The area of use is fairly self explanatory. And even though the effect can be achieved by scripting, this necessitates knowing which AI and vehicles are present.  I would like an in-engine solution which is dynamically accessible to scripters and mission designers. Putting down a vehicle target on an occupied building or bunker network would see AI target said location with AT weapons and cannons.  Effect would be great. 

 

// Add and paint Target for EAST JET
// version 1.0
// by nkenny

// init
_p = (_this select 0) call bis_fnc_position;
_r = param [1,200];

// position
_p2 = _p getPos [random _r,random 360];

// target
_t = "Sign_Sphere100cm_F" createVehicle _p2; 
_lt = "LaserTargetE" createVehicle (getposatl _t); 
_lt attachTo [_t, [0, 0, 0]];

// eventhandler
_EH = _lt addEventHandler ["IncomingMissile", 
                            {
                              if (var_debug) then {systemchat format ["MISSILE: %1",_this];};
                              [(_this select 0)] spawn {sleep 10; deletevehicle (_this select 0);};
                             }
                          ];


// debug
if (!var_debug) then {_t setObjectTextureGlobal [0, ""];} else {[_t,"Laser Target"] call nk_fnc_DotMarker};

// end
true

 

[Ivanoff.N 61]

commandsuppressivefire and dosuppressivefire does not work with 30/40mm cannons (Kamysh, Marshall).

It does work for all other vehicles that don`t have this cannon type.

[winse 22]

Guys, what are reasons for this AI behaveour:

 

-You're a tank commander

-You perfectly see your target

-Switching to the gunner's place you also see your target without any obstacles

-Target - is enemy armor, at 1.5-2.0km distance

-Target is revealed, AI gunner knowledge level is 4.0

-AI gunner skill level is 1.0 for all skills

-You order AI gunner to aim at target

-But! Instead of aiming the target AI aims at some arbitrary point and if ordered to shoot - shoots to nowhere.

 

Anything I can do with this as a player?

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

4 hours ago, winse said:

Guys, what are reasons for this AI behaveour:

 

-You're a tank commander

-You perfectly see your target

-Switching to the gunner's place you also see your target without any obstacles

-Target - is enemy armor, at 1.5-2.0km distance

-Target is revealed, AI gunner knowledge level is 4.0

-AI gunner skill level is 1.0 for all skills

-You order AI gunner to aim at target

-But! Instead of aiming the target AI aims at some arbitrary point and if ordered to shoot - shoots to nowhere.

 

Anything I can do with this as a player?

Is the cannon the currently selected weapon of the gunner?

 

Cheers

[winse 22]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

Is the cannon the currently selected weapon of the gunner?

 

Cheers

Certainly. I play the game since OFP and know how to operate a tank:) Actually such behaveour is "usual" since then xD.

Would be nice if AI gunners behave as AI drivers: do exactly what commander ordered.

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

40 minutes ago, winse said:

Certainly. I play the game since OFP and know how to operate a tank:) Actually such behaveour is "usual" since then xD.

Would be nice if AI gunners behave as AI drivers: do exactly what commander ordered.

Do you have a repro mission for that?

Which tank/target?

AI gunner not aiming straight at a target is usually caused by wrong weapon (selected machine gun when target is a tank) or there's no clear line of sight.

 

Cheers

[HazJ 1289]

Just switched to dev branch to try the new content which will be released in 1.84 - Placed down OPFOR SAM with Radar. It isn't firing at hostile helicopters? Tried different helicopter types. Distance / range doesn't seem to matter, I tried going far, close and with radar on and off. Also, my AI reports the static as an MG. Regarding the Destroyer ship. I assume the ramps don't work? Looked everywhere for the action/switch/option.

 

EDIT: The SAM finally decided to fire at me. Though I had to do multiple close fly overs at a low altitude.

[froggyluv 2136]

HazJ How'd you get that guy to blind fire in your promo video?

[HazJ 1289]

F*ck. I just realised I posted in the AI discussion thread by mistake. I guess it is kinda related to AI. Damn. I'm blind. What do you mean promo video? On my website? That is all official A3 footage. Just clipped and edited.

 

EDIT: Here they are. @froggyluv

Acts_CrouchingFiringLeftRifle01
Acts_CrouchingFiringLeftRifle02
Acts_CrouchingFiringLeftRifle03
Acts_CrouchingFiringLeftRifle04

player switchMove "Acts_CrouchingFiringLeftRifle01";

playMove/playMoveNow doesn't work.

[froggyluv 2136]

Wow thanks man -unreal whats hidden in this game. Shame only does one side and even bigger that its not implemented into the's game AI. Variety is spice of life

 

[Freghar 73]

Hello,
I've been trying to debug AI soldiers "magically" reporting targets, when hit by a bullet, to any groups within exactly 80 meters, ruining any attempts at a "stealth mission", but so far no luck and I may need somebody with engine source access to confirm this.

 

What happens:

• When a soldier is non-fatally hit, it instantly transmits the shooter info to any nearby groups
• When a soldier is instantly killed (headshot), this does not happen

 

• This does not affect non-soldier vehicles, AFAICT
• Soldier audibly shouting (or not) has no effect on this
• Soldier actively spotting shooter has no effect on this (only bullet hit)
• Inventory content (ie. ItemRadio) has no effect on this

What I've tried to narrow this down:

• Set "audibleFire" and "visibleFire" for both the CfgAmmo and muzzle_snds_* to 0.0001
• Set "camouflage" and "audible" for the shooter to 0.0001
• Set "sensitivity" and "sensitivityEar" for all soldiers to 0.0001
• Set all skills to 0, I even modified CfgAISkill to make sure skillFinal is 0
• Used disableAI on all skills (not shown in video)
• Set "fsmDanger" and "fsmFormation" to empty string for all soldiers
• Experimented with "dangerRadiusBulletClose", "dangerRadiusHit", "visibleFireTime", etc. for the CfgAmmo
• Removed all possible runtime EventHandlers from the soldier and checked Config structure
• Searched thoroughly for any relevant keywords and numbers through all game PBOs

None of this changed the "magical" spotting - the AI is dumb and cannot see/shoot me, but the "targets" lists of nearby groups still get updated with the shooter.

If anyone (oukej?) can shed some light on this and whether the spotting can be disabled/reduced/delayed, I would love to know.

 

Thanks!

[Dedmen 2700]

17 hours ago, Freghar said:

I've been trying to debug AI soldiers "magically" reporting targets, when hit by a bullet, to any groups within exactly 80 meters, ruining any attempts at a "stealth mission", but so far no luck and I may need somebody with engine source access to confirm this.

 

Quote

You're running a modded version of the game, which may change gameplay, performance and stability.

 

 

You should really test this without mods.

[Freghar 73]

7 hours ago, Dedmen said:

You should really test this without mods.

The only active mod is a tiny one that does the changes described in my post. And CBA that I forgot to disable for the video.

 

I wouldn't be posting here if the issue wasn't reproducible on clean vanilla game (it is), it's just harder to provide such a nice demonstration of the issue with fully active AI spotting and engaging.

[SuicideKing 233]

@Freghar possibly related ticket https://feedback.bistudio.com/T85165 ? I authored that back in Dec 2015, seem to be describing something similar. If it's the same thing, then his change seems to have crept in with v1.54.

 

I've also had an experience where I:

1. place a vehicle (like the Tigris) facing away from me
2. sneak up behind it, plant a demo charge

3. run 50m away and hide well out of site

4. blow the charge

The crew bailed, and ran up to my exact spot and killed me, even though they shouldn't have any idea where I am. This was probably two years ago though, can't remember exactly.

[snoops_213 75]

14 hours ago, SuicideKing said:

@Freghar possibly related ticket https://feedback.bistudio.com/T85165 ? I authored that back in Dec 2015, seem to be describing something similar. If it's the same thing, then his change seems to have crept in with v1.54.

 

I've also had an experience where I:

1. place a vehicle (like the Tigris) facing away from me
2. sneak up behind it, plant a demo charge

3. run 50m away and hide well out of site

4. blow the charge

The crew bailed, and ran up to my exact spot and killed me, even though they shouldn't have any idea where I am. This was probably two years ago though, can't remember exactly.

This problem has been around since the ofp days. I'm sure this one has been explained by previous devs before but it is an engine limitation if I remember correctly. 

@Freghar does it report to other groups or just the soldiers in the targets group? I always thought it reported to its own group members but not other groups and that a player that kills a lot of enemy AI becomes the preferred target for other groups 

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

On 5.8.2018 at 11:56 AM, snoops_213 said:

This problem has been around since the ofp days. I'm sure this one has been explained by previous devs before but it is an engine limitation if I remember correctly. 

@Freghar does it report to other groups or just the soldiers in the targets group? I always thought it reported to its own group members but not other groups and that a player that kills a lot of enemy AI becomes the preferred target for other groups 

 

There is no excuse, just explaination.

Disembarking crews or hit enemies in general magically know the exact position of your head the same moment you hit them and send a bullet through - with a scope-less rifle over 100m - hip-shot style.

 

That way the crew of an hit tank kills you before the animation allows you to store or throw away the launcher to run away or hide.

 

Like that since OFP. Will be solved when BER is ready for service.

 

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:56 AM, snoops_213 said:

This problem has been around since the ofp days. I'm sure this one has been explained by previous devs before but it is an engine limitation if I remember correctly. 

@Freghar does it report to other groups or just the soldiers in the targets group? I always thought it reported to its own group members but not other groups and that a player that kills a lot of enemy AI becomes the preferred target for other groups 

 

Not an engine limitation, more like dev limitation.

Given the rather new script commands setShotParents and forgetTarget, you can easily circumvent/reproduce this issue.

 

Let a mortar (named mortar) fire at a tank (named angara), set the shot owner to the player,

as soon as the round hits and you start moving/are clearly visually spottable by the tank, you're toast.

This also works if the tank has no line of sight, as soon as he gets hit by the round, he knows where you are for some weird reason.

 

 

 

mortar doartilleryfire [getposatl angara,currentmagazine this,1];

mortar addEventHandler ["Fired",{ 
	params ["_arty"]; 
	_projectile = _this # 6; 
	_projectile setShotParents [vehicle player,player]; 
	{deletevehicle _x} forEach [gunner _arty,_arty]; 
	hintSilent "Mortar shot fired, owner set to player"; 
}]; 

Shouldn't require too much tinkering to make the tank forget about a unit he shouldn't know anything about in the first place,

seeing how the threads about AI and AI driving barely get any attention nowadays I doubt this will be fixed in A3s remaining life cycle.

 

The total lack of authentic reaction time of AI doesn't help either.

 

 

Cheers

[Freghar 73]

The problem is that while this could be scripted away for some scenarios (ie. artillery) by spawning an enemy unit on [0,0,0] and setting it as the shotParent (even though it would make AI look towards [0,0,0]), I can't think of a way to work around this for a "stealth mission".

 

If I set shotParents to objNull or to a unit from the target's side, the AI obviously doesn't react. If I set it to somebody from the attacker's side, all units within 80 meters still get alerted (run around, go prone, etc.), even if I forgetTarget right after the unit being hit.

Even if I was to construct some logic that can forgetTarget without causing an alert (by switching sides / using captive / CARELESS / etc.), I can't reliably tell between a situation where the AI should spot the shooter via its spotting capabilities (outlined in my post above) or if the target got spotted via "magical" bullet hit spotting.

 

My issue is not necessarily the unit(s) knowing who shot the target, but that the fact that target was shot is broadcasted to other groups. Even though the two may be connected.

Thanks.

[Freghar 73]

Note that I may have found the culprit:

Quote

DCScream (7)

Scream heard (a non-head hit produces scream, useful to detect a silenced weapon attacks)

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_2:_FSM_Danger_Causes

(The feature would make sense if it didn't propagate through building walls and instantaneously, even mid-burst-shot.)

 

So I guess there's really no way to disable it via scripts/config if even custom scripted FSMs can't modify this.

[winse 22]

Guys, who can guide me how to make AI-driven helicopter to use unguided rockets efficiently against ground targets? Whatever settings of AI skills I apply, the result is the same:

 

 

 

With a fixed wing, it is slightly better, but still not efficient enough.

 

 

 

In my understanding, currently, AI aircrafts are mostly useless without guided weapons as they simply can't hit a thing.

 

Or I am just doing something wrong?)

[krycek 349]

Forget air support, unless you have human pilots the AI is crap with everything not guided. Jets are even worse with diving behaviour since OFP. It also doesn't help that they get shot to pieces by anything with an (laser) autocannon.

If you still want air support make them take no damage, BI promotes realism.

[SuicideKing 233]

The funny thing is, planes get attracted to AA radars popping up on their sensors and fly straight towards them...

[SuicideKing 233]

2 hours ago, winse said:

In my understanding, currently, AI aircrafts are mostly useless without guided weapons as they simply can't hit a thing.

 

Maybe try turning their skills up? Especially the general AI subskill.

 

2 hours ago, winse said:

Guys, who can guide me how to make AI-driven helicopter to use unguided rockets efficiently against ground targets?

Maybe try assigning the rockets to the pilot instead of the gunner? And same, try increasing their skills

[winse 22]

2 hours ago, SuicideKing said:

Maybe try turning their skills up? Especially the general AI subskill.

Doesn't change anything substantial - already tried.