AI Discussion (dev branch)

[oukej 2910]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:AI

Is that diagram correct? Shouldn't skillAI dictate the skills and precisionAI the aiming? I'm pretty sure thats how it works ingame from adjusting the values.

Yes, it's inverted by mistake, sry :/

So for example I set my server values to this:

 aiLevelPreset=3;
 skillAI=1;
 precisionAI=1;

Then I place a unit/spawn with script with the following skills taken from an earlier example in this thread.

0.10, // aimingAccuracy
0.60, // aimingShake
0.3, // aimingSpeed
0.2, // spotDistance
0.2, // spotTime
0.5, // courage
0.5, // reloadSpeed
1, // commanding
0.8 // general 

So in theory I get true accurate values, i.e. aimingShake is actually 0.60 as the overall value is 1? Anyone feel up to coding up a little web app skill calculator or something that might help people understand how this works a bit better?

All this assumes that all the CfgAISkill are set to 0,0 1,1 too. I believe these set the true min and maximum the value can be.

You can check the skillFinal (after the interpolation) via https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/skillFinal. It's a command mainly for informative and testing purposes. Shouldn't also be used for non-local units. You can check the numerical effect of AI Level (skill/precision) on the unit's subskills. But don't focus on the numbers too much :)

Edited January 11, 2015 by oukej

[oukej 2910]

Important note - there's been a serious issue with AI skill when reading the mission.sqm by a dedicated server (see http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22077 , thanks Tomeek a lot for discovering it)

In short - if the AI unit has it's skill only set by the slider in the editor (or left unadjusted; when the skill is read from the unit class in mission.sqm) it gets initialized with a 1.0 skill and the AI behaves accordingly (1337 headshots for everyone).

Dynamically created units (createUnit, incl. those created by Zeus) or units that have their skill adjusted by a script (setSkill) have a correct skill (as defined) and behavior.

We're working on the fix and we're sorry for the inconvenience!

[Arma3goodCPUlowFPS 12]

hello @oukej, have you seen this ?

have you thought about adding this to arma 3 ? this would improve the AI driving pretty much to almost near perfect in terms of driving

[chrisb 196]

Its junctions they fall down on more than anything. In testing, I can scatter wrecks, vehicles and civilians around on the roads and have virtually no problems with AI handling going around them. But come to a junctions and they always cut it. But with well placed WP's for junctions you can get around that if your mission making. However if they go off route, its back to cutting them and hitting signs.

Edited January 8, 2015 by ChrisB

[froggyluv 2136]

hello @oukej, have you seen this ?

have you thought about adding this to arma 3 ? this would improve the AI driving pretty much to almost near perfect in terms of driving

Damn thats impressive. Too impressive too ignore as that is one of the most heard complaints of the game (besides MP performance). That Vcom guy is doing some crazy things....time to draw up a contract...?

[old_painless 182]

Impressive pathfinding, especially the bit where he discards the current route as it is completely blocked and finds an alternative. TomTom AI :)

[oukej 2910]

Yup, I've seen it and also taken a closer look.

The fact that the AI in vanilla A3 ignores objects placed on the road is however a bug in the first place :)

[seba1976 98]

- AI drivers should really learn to corner. They have no perception of speed. I had a mission where I tried to have a convoy go around a 90 degree corner on a downhill roat, and the lead vehicle (Marshall APC) never made the corner, not even once. It would always overspeed and fly out of the corner, eventually wrecking the vehicle, with all the following vehicles comically going behind it like ducklings. The recent GTA video with the "worst driver ever" would probably have ended quite differently in Arma - namely, the AI would have driven against something, tried to floor the pedal, and finally said "can't get there". Yeah, as you can see, I am very frustrated about this.

This has been worked on and we already seem to have some promising improvements. Stay tuned

Don't think for a minute we have forgotten this :).

[chrisb 196]

Yup, I've seen it and also taken a closer look.

The fact that the AI in vanilla A3 ignores objects placed on the road is however a bug in the first place :)

This is really vanilla ai (well driving wise), although he's speeding here.. ;) but he does just fine !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V12PYQNAqo

Edited January 9, 2015 by ChrisB

[das attorney 858]

Now try blocking the road with objects from the "Static" classes, not "thingX" or "Car_f". They don't "see" it if it's not a physics object.

From earlier on tonight:

[windies 11]

Now try blocking the road with objects from the "Static" classes, not "thingX" or "Car_f". They don't "see" it if it's not a physics object.

From earlier on tonight:

He could just really hate public restrooms?

[das attorney 858]

lol :)

[inlesco 233]

Now try blocking the road with objects from the "Static" classes, not "thingX" or "Car_f". They don't "see" it if it's not a physics object.

From earlier on tonight:

Exactly the problem with current A3 AI and what Vcom AI really solves.

[kremator 1065]

Now try blocking the road with objects from the "Static" classes, not "thingX" or "Car_f". They don't "see" it if it's not a physics object.

From earlier on tonight:

This is just shameful !

Needs to be one of the TOP priorities. We have suffered this FAR too long.

[old_painless 182]

Now try blocking the road with objects from the "Static" classes, not "thingX" or "Car_f". They don't "see" it if it's not a physics object.

From earlier on tonight:

Even more painful is the fact that the objects do not move or are damaged in any way as he hits them repeatedly

[chrisb 196]

The reason I find coming into this thread, is a waste of time. Is that mostly there is always a work-around.

The game will hold your hand for so long, then you have to start to design missions to get around problems. Lets throw a 'structure' in the path of ai drivers. Then lets moan about what happens. Well I'm sorry, but its not going to be a good result, so why do it in the first place??

If you have a mission that needs a road block, use something you know the ai can handle. If I put something in the path, which I know the ai won't handle, then I expect a problem, or maybe perhaps, that's the outcome I want (ai to have a problem), then something has to follow on from that point in the mission, what do you intend for the ai to do, when faced with the problem !

Mod makers can only do so much to help, some mods can go far beyond that. But really, players have to decide how much they are willing to put into the game.

The 'hold my hand' view, can only go so far, when you consider how much the ai have to do here in this series. I'm not saying its perfect, far from it. But the players that have the most problems are the players that put the least effort into their missions, that's how I see it. Why! because there are a few million players, but its the same minuscule amount, really is minuscule, that complain they can't get it to work.

We know if they are to be engaged and go off road, that in vanilla, they are going to have problems. In your missions, find a work-around for that problem. If you don't make missions, use mission makers that have missions that work, simple.

There are problems we all know. I point out the bad from time to time, mainly ai. But I always find a way around a problem. Mod/addons, mission design etc, will all play their part in helping me to make a mission work. But ultimately, it has to be mission design that makes it work, i.e. what do I want to do, how will it work....

Mod/addon makers can't stop a mission breaking, good mission design, or missions from good mission designers, can. Knowing what the game is capable of doing, or not capable of doing, is very important. The only way you'll find that out is time and testing. Other than that, you'll depend on those that have done that time and testing for you, i.e. good mission designers, mod/addon makers.

The ai is broken in places, yes. However, is the game broken, no.

Because there is more or less always a work-around.

Do we rely totally on the devs solving the problems, I wouldn't. Because they have shown they can't. So take it on yourself to find a solution, there are many out there that will help solve these problems.

BI have given us enough to work from, the rest, unfortunately, we have to do ourselves.

______________

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSHHolEhVBc

Its not perfect, but its something I can certainly work from, can you!! If you can't, maybe its time to move on and play something else..

______________

Vcomai is good, I applaud what he or she is doing, I applaud what all mod/addon makers do. But there are already many ways to stop your mission from breaking, or have it work better.

Waiting for BI, or even discussing here, after so long (15yrs), well no, the times gone, they are not going to correct what is there already, this thread is all but dead, it has been for years. Just goes around in circles, or should I say, the same people go around in circles, not able to find a solution or work-around.:(

[das attorney 858]

That's incredibly patronising Chris.

It's a known issue with the AI that affects many mission makers. We don't all have the luxury of making a nice easy set of waypoints in a blank editor and concluding that everything is fine like in your video.

It's something they're aware of and will hopefully fix pronto.

As for "this thread is all but dead, it has been for years"; why are you still posting in it then?

BTW: I can "workaround" this problem for the time being. I'd just rather not have to.

[chrisb 196]

That's incredibly patronising Chris.

It's a known issue with the AI that affects many mission makers. We don't all have the luxury of making a nice easy set of waypoints in a blank editor and concluding that everything is fine like in your video.

It's something they're aware of and will hopefully fix pronto.

As for "this thread is all but dead, it has been for years"; why are you still posting in it then?

BTW: I can "workaround" this problem for the time being. I'd just rather not have to.

It is not patronising, why, to who. If you google a problem for this series, you'll get a workaround more or less always. Might not be something you want to use or like, but there will be one. The choice is to use it, or design your mission differently. Its practical not patronising.

I make missions and can easily work-around it. Most things ai related, are non issues, with what is available.

Regards the thread, I don't usually post in here, its a dead thread, as I said, certainly for me. Reason being, they can't fix what problems they have, so they simply run the questioners around for a while then move on. If that hasn't occurred to you by now, then your not reading the thread.

For any video I put up showing bad ai or indeed any video I see showing bad ai, I will/can usually always show the flip side. That would probably involve using a mod/addon, script or mission design etc, but there is always a workaround for most all of the problems talked about here.

As for your last line, you've answered the problem, workaround, because Das, at the end of the day, that's all we're ever going to have for the problems concerning ai.. Doesn't matter how long this thread gets, it won't cure any of the ai related problems. Your best over in the mod complete section, or better still, AH/google.

Sad but true, I feel.:(

[das attorney 858]

From what you write you make it seem that nothing ever gets fixed.

The path of progress is incredibly slow sometimes, but many issues do get fixed. However, if it's your prerogative to believe that nothing ever gets done, then that's up to you.

Also, I don't think making workarounds for this problem is any kind of "solution". The AI is supposed to be able to navigate their environment, so it's not expecting to much to want it to be fixed. If I was trying to get the AI to do something they weren't designed to do, then yes I would be more than happy to use workarounds to achieve my goal.

[chrisb 196]

From what you write you make it seem that nothing ever gets fixed.

The path of progress is incredibly slow sometimes, but many issues do get fixed. However, if it's your prerogative to believe that nothing ever gets done, then that's up to you.

Also, I don't think making workarounds for this problem is any kind of "solution". The AI is supposed to be able to navigate their environment, so it's not expecting to much to want it to be fixed. If I was trying to get the AI to do something they weren't designed to do, then yes I would be more than happy to use workarounds to achieve my goal.

They navigate around their given environment pretty good already. If we decide to throw a wall in their way then..well..

I don't know where you get the idea I think nothing gets fixed. I haven't said that anywhere, but obviously you think I have.

I only refer to the outstanding ai problems (checking thread title), that have been present since I turned 42. The fact I'm now in my mid 50's, leads me to believe they are unable to remedy these. I could be wrong, but I'll probably be dead before they manage it.:rolleyes:

But for me they are fixed, have been for a long time. Infact, I can't remember them being a problem. Its the whole reason why I posted, these are a non issue, because if players look around (and they should), they will find a solution. O.K. its not going to be a BI solution, but who really cares, provided they work. I don't.

For readers that want a fix, look around, they're out there, plus you yourselves can fix these things, simply by using or designing sensible missions, that work well.

Practical advice, that..;)

Just my view.

[das attorney 858]

They navigate around their given environment pretty good already. If we decide to throw a wall in their way then..well..

No, that's the point. They can't even navigate through the objects baked into the terrain, let alone user-placed objects. That video I posted was on a beach on Altis and the toilets that the offroad kept banging into were map objects. It's the same with a lot of other map scenery.

I appreciate that for you, it's fixed, but for a lot of people it's not and all of our needs differ as you should know.

I accept there's certain things that the AI cannot do so I design things in a different way, but the AI really need to do the basics, and driving is a basic requirement in my view.

EDIT: As much as I think VCOM AI Driving mod is a really clever bit of thinking - it's a band-aid over the problem, so "looking around in mods complete" isn't a solution.:rolleyes:

Edited January 10, 2015 by Das Attorney

[SilentSpike 84]

It is not patronising, why, to who.

Because you're essentially saying that people are incompetent for not working with unintended behavior they encounter instead of asking for it to be resolved, implying that their opinions aren't worth considering. In doing so, implying that you - as someone who doesn't ask for it to be resolved - are superior and have an opinion worth considering.

You're either being oblivious or inconsiderate right now. Case in point:

I can certainly work from, can you!! If you can't, maybe its time to move on and play something else..

Anyway, oukej (developer) has already confirmed it as unintended behavior.

[Variable 322]

Chris, first of all, saying that there's a workaround to all of the AI problems is absolutely nonsense. The fact is, that there are certain scenarios that are completely impossible given the current AI. For example, show me a workaround for commanded AI slowness and irresponsiveness under fire - there is none. The fact is that you can't make a mission that has you moving fast with your AI squad in order to retreat or get fast to a different place while they are under fire or being ranged. Not making such scenario is NOT a workaround. There are a dozen logical and obvious combat scenarios that are currently blocked by very basic AI limitations.

You want us to "find mission makers that can workaround the problems"? Well you need to be informed that given the frustration working with the AI (and other problems of the game) the number of willing capable mission makers is getting low. I can count those who share their work on both my hands. That is, for a game with this ambition, shameful.

Just think of how wonderful this community could be with all those currently unknown mission makers had those glaring AI problems resolved. So many people are avoiding mission making or the game altogether because having to script or mod the shit out of a mission just to achieve basic wanted behaviors makes the game unapproachable. The fact that you and others are capable to achieve some basic scenarios with the AI just proves the point that stuff needs fixing for the sake of having the game more popular and make mission making more approachable so we could all enjoy from more quality scenarios from more potential mission makers

BIS is not unable to fix this problems, there's nothing extraordinary about the AI that is impossible to fix. It's a question of willingness and priority. And that's what makes this thread so important.

[Alwarren 2767]

For readers that want a fix, look around, they're out there, plus you yourselves can fix these things, simply by using or designing sensible missions, that work well.

Practical advice, that..;).

I find this statement awfully patronizing. When I try to make a help insertion I either have to set it kilometers away from the action, or have everybody start on the ground, because the Air just cannot manage to land without flaring up, and UnitPlay does still not work on dedicated last time I checked.

Finally, I have to scrap a lot of missions because of AI issues, so please don't try to rationalize this away. The problems are blatantly obvious, and while some CAN be worked around (which I bloody shouldn't have to waste time on), others cannot or only by crippling my ideas.

There is no point in defending the issues as minor. They are frustrating enough to sometimes make me wonder why I still even try.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Chris, first of all, saying that there's a workaround to all of the AI problems is absolutely nonsense. The fact is, that there are certain scenarios that are completely impossible given the current AI. For example, show me a workaround for commanded AI slowness and irresponsiveness under fire - there is none. The fact is that you can't make a mission that has you moving fast with your AI squad in order to retreat or get fast to a different place while they are under fire or being ranged. Not making such scenario is NOT a workaround. There are a dozen logical and obvious combat scenarios that are currently blocked by very basic AI limitations.

Sure you can, just disableAI FSM. Makes them quite a bit dumber though, but very fast. I thought about making an addon to make it a squad command, but it turns out i am too lazy. I only use it for 'rushing the enemy positions with suicidal tendencies' type of missions. :p

I would prefer to be able to switch to a move simple FSM, which makes them not quite as stupid as no FSM at all.