AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Bucic 1]

No, it doesn't make sense. Because the fact BIS is a commercial company, doesn't mean that it can neglect it's responsibility to make every effort to support it's released games, even if it means diverting resources from more successful titles. DayZ cannot serve as an excuse for having such a core feature broken if its existence prevents BIS from living up to its obligations.

Really guys, enough of the apologetic approach of "we accept every BIS failure because we love BIS and BIS have DayZ, fixing broken AI behavior is hard and there are other bugs". I love BIS, but this approach doesn't help BIS nor the community.

I see that every single discussion about critical issues with ArmA and lack of acknowledgment of thereof by the developers ends up the same way. By a wall of excusers. Up to the point I think it doesn't make sense to even raise the issues, not to mention diving into heated discussions. The way I see it BI understands only the language of the wallets. I can't even say it's any sort of common sense, seeing them throwing DLCs into peoples faces instead of focusing on critical issues. And so it appears only writing honest reviews seems to make sense in the long run. I was about to say 'voting on the issue tracker' but... you know...

[roshnak 41]

Lets try to get attention to this one more time:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16717

This is a bug that was introduced in Arma 3, right? I don't remember it being a problem in previous games.

[Variable 322]

This is a bug that was introduced in Arma 3, right? I don't remember it being a problem in previous games.

Yeah, this bug was born and raised in Arma 3. It makes commanding tanks a nightmare.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Is there anything that can be done to get AI to go through animated gates such as bar gates.? I have tried to force a convoy of AI to drive through an open bar gate and they refuse, even if there is no other way round.

Someone has raised an issue on the feedback tracker which I have added to. http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14688

Add to that tha AI won't pass under bridges.

[Bouben 3]

Add to that tha AI won't pass under bridges.

Yes. This have complicated my tactics few times...

[Bouben 3]

OK, lets remind this again.

AI AT units are useless. They aim too long and run around like idiots instead of shooting. They get themselves killed all the time.

On the other hand, armored units with turrets aim too fast. Please, have a look at some actual combat footage and see how long it takes to stabilize turret on a non-lockable target and shoot. Right now, armored units in the game behave like sentry guns. That is wrong and needs to be changed. This behaviour is there since OFP but the AI AT units behaved better then so it was not so prominent.

[Tonci87 163]

I agree with the first part, not witgh the second. Real life turrets are really fast at shooting things, it only takes so long in videos because the crews have to confirm every target etc.

[Bouben 3]

I agree with the first part, not witgh the second. Real life turrets are really fast at shooting things, it only takes so long in videos because the crews have to confirm every target etc.

Yeah, they can be fast in shooting things - technologically. But you have to put there the human element in order to make it a believable experience. We must not forget that turret operator uses some kind of analog input to control the turret and that turret aiming is not as precise as it looks in the game. Turret operator will make corrections (even if for few centimetres) before he starts shooting. There should be some random error and delay for turrets in the game. And when a vehicle is moving, the error should be even bigger.

[kremator 1065]

OK, lets remind this again.

AI AT units are useless. They aim too long and run around like idiots instead of shooting. They get themselves killed all the time.

On the other hand, armored units with turrets aim too fast. Please, have a look at some actual combat footage and see how long it takes to stabilize turret on a non-lockable target and shoot. Right now, armored units in the game behave like sentry guns. That is wrong and needs to be changed. This behaviour is there since OFP but the AI AT units behaved better then so it was not so prominent.

^^This needs looking at urgently !

[roshnak 41]

I agree with the first part, not witgh the second. Real life turrets are really fast at shooting things, it only takes so long in videos because the crews have to confirm every target etc.

Right, and the turrets themselves shouldn't be made slower or anything, but I believe that we're talking about the speed with which the AI uses them.

[Bouben 3]

Right, and the turrets themselves shouldn't be made slower or anything, but I believe that we're talking about the speed with which the AI uses them.

Exactly. The technology could be flawless but the human element is the variable.

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, they can be fast in shooting things - technologically. But you have to put there the human element in order to make it a believable experience. We must not forget that turret operator uses some kind of analog input to control the turret and that turret aiming is not as precise as it looks in the game. Turret operator will make corrections (even if for few centimetres) before he starts shooting. There should be some random error and delay for turrets in the game. And when a vehicle is moving, the error should be even bigger.

I agree in theory, but the AI gunners in this game already have a huge problem that BIS didn´t fix yet. AI controled Tanks always start to shoot before the turning turret is aimed directly at the target Therefore their first shot will always miss. That might be OK with the MG, but it is just horrible with the main gun due to the reload time.

Turrets also seem to turn very fast and with no inertia.

If the first problem could be fixed, with some adjustements to the speed and inertia the problem would be solved.

[Bouben 3]

I agree in theory, but the AI gunners in this game already have a huge problem that BIS didn´t fix yet. AI controled Tanks always start to shoot before the turning turret is aimed directly at the target Therefore their first shot will always miss. That might be OK with the MG, but it is just horrible with the main gun due to the reload time.

Turrets also seem to turn very fast and with no inertia.

If the first problem could be fixed, with some adjustements to the speed and inertia the problem would be solved.

This is, I believe, a separated problem that even has not much effect on the AI skill in combat situations. But I agree it should be fixed.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Turrets also seem to turn very fast and with no inertia.

Maybe I'm misreading what you mean, but turrets generally stop in an instant when the gunner releases the controls, they don't wander any further like personal firearms do.

[enex 11]

Maybe I'm misreading what you mean, but turrets generally stop in an instant when the gunner releases the controls, they don't wander any further like personal firearms do.

It's hard to explain it but when I moved crosshair with joystick in this

It doesn't feel like mouse movement but as drag movement.Reference red orchestra tank gunner

movement.

[CaptainObvious 95]

It's hard to explain it but when I moved crosshair with joystick in this

http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3776/medium/h9mwdx70nud341z6wb2x.jpg

It doesn't feel like mouse movement but as drag movement.Reference red orchestra tank gunner

movement.

Yea, definitely not like using a mouse, we had controls similar to this, both sticks tilted front-to-back simultaneously on the same horizontal axis, and the whole assembly rotated left-to-right, so no separate joysticks in this particular system.

And when the gunner released the "safety button" (a button which needs to be pressed for the turret to accept any input from the gunner, don't know its real name) the turret stopped right there, without any noticeable inertia.

Overall the movement felt very robotic and linear to me, of course I've only used that one particular system so maybe others feel and behave different, dunno.

[enex 11]

Yea, definitely not like using a mouse, we had controls similar to this, both sticks tilted front-to-back simultaneously on the same horizontal axis, and the whole assembly rotated left-to-right, so no separate joysticks in this particular system.

http://i.imgur.com/EEAlNJc.jpg

And when the gunner released the "safety button" (a button which needs to be pressed for the turret to accept any input from the gunner, don't know its real name) the turret stopped right there, without any noticeable inertia.

Overall the movement felt very robotic and linear to me, of course I've only used that one particular system so maybe others feel and behave different, dunno.

Those are right: words robotic and linear.I wish we could simulate

that instead of free mousy movement.

We could say there are different CROWS systems.The one that I tried required one joystick.

[Alwarren 2767]

I guess it is too late to change that now, but one neat AI feature for the Helicopter DLC would have been to teach them how to land properly. As it is now, every time an AI pilot lands he will flare up like a Hellfire missile, making them an ideal target for everything in the area and making a behind-the-hill covered insertion next to impossible without a lot of waypoints and fine-tweaking. It's not like the landing comes as a surprise, they know their landing waypoint so they should start to lose speed much earlier to avoid flaring up like this.

[2nd ranger 282]

AI landing should absolutely have been looked at. At the very least, if BIS can't make them land properly, getting rid of that flaring business would be a start. I guess BIS feels unitCapture/unitPlay is the way forward, and most other games use scripted solutions for helicopters, but that function wouldn't even exist if the AI could be trusted. Looking at BIS missions, it's staggering to see the things they have to do sometimes to work around the AI's ineptitude.

[Variable 322]

And on top of that unitPlay doesn't work on dedicated servers since the Alpha release although we have been begging for a fix.

[Bouben 3]

There is a huge problem with AI not healing themselves even when they are unable to run as a result of their injuries. This slows down the whole group which is pain in the ass for AI groups that are supposed to keep some reasonable tempo...

I suppose the fix would be easy.

[old_painless 183]

Sorry to say so, Bouben, but only about one in a hundred fixes from the changelog have anything to do with AI. And then they even revert some, like yesterday. The changelog is more filled with entries related to new additions (Zeus, FFV etc.) rather than AI related issues. Fixing the AI seems to be seriously on backburner

[Bouben 3]

Sorry to say so, Bouben, but only about one in a hundred fixes from the changelog have anything to do with AI. And then they even revert some, like yesterday. The changelog is more filled with entries related to new additions (Zeus, FFV etc.) rather than AI related issues. Fixing the AI seems to be seriously on backburner

Unfortunately, I know that. I am just keeping hope...

[Variable 322]

Can we please get an official response indicating BIS plans regarding the AI?

[Bouben 3]

Can we please get an official response indicating BIS plans regarding the AI?

Signed.