AI Discussion (dev branch)

[oukej 2911]

I haven't done any specific testing.

Try placing a soldier next to you, keep giving you both fatigue by a script and have some careless targets down the range. He wont be much better than you ;) But isolated tests are one thing - emergent gameplay situations are different and more important.

[KeyCat 131]

The question then is rather: shouldn't there be a behaviour-setting exactly for that case? What should AI do upon seeing SideUnknown? Should the AI - depending on the current waypoint - go investigate, until it's clear whether to shoot at it or not? Should it hide/take cover? Or do nothing special? How would you name such a setting and its options? Aggressive/curious, defensive and passive? Would such a thing make sense and could be valuable in influencing other behaviour (depending on waypoint types)?

Maybe such things are best left to scripted solutions, exactly because what's a reasonable reaction highly depends on the scenario.

Interesting ideas!

/KC

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

Sweet. I didn't know that fatigue effected the ai. Unfortunately it doesn't really come through in the game play, for either... though I haven't done any specific testing. Maybe I am just being ignorant of how much they actually are handicapped.

Fatigue has tremendous effects on the AI.

Try to give an AI squad a few waypoints and observe how they are getting slower and slower as fatigue is increasing, up to a point where they're barely faster than walking (still using the running animation and therefor making it look really weird)

Curious about the changes on devbranch, because right now commanding AI on stable is a nightmare, soldiers can't run for more than 400m before coming to a crawl, making missions involving travel on longer distances unplayable (tested with a rather lightly equipped blufor squad leader)

[Variable 322]

There is actually a group of developers working solely on AI, even the newly added functionality needs some AI support. And there are several new stuff required for Helicopter DLC :icon_twisted:

Can we get more information on that? Will the very old AI issues (like the inability get them to move fast under fire) get attention?

[-Coulum- 35]

Fatigue has tremendous effects on the AI.

Try to give an AI squad a few waypoints and observe how they are getting slower and slower as fatigue is increasing, up to a point where they're barely faster than walking (still using the running animation and therefor making it look really weird)

Curious about the changes on devbranch, because right now commanding AI on stable is a nightmare, soldiers can't run for more than 400m before coming to a crawl, making missions involving travel on longer distances unplayable (tested with a rather lightly equipped blufor squad leader)

Yeah I was aware of that, I was just talking about shooting specifically. I know injury will make the ai aim worse, but I didn't know fatigue does as well. I will have to do some tests on it. It felt like fatigue doesn't effeect the ai aiming (at all/enough) but maybe that is just my ignorance. Thats why I need to test it. To see if they are legitimately too good or its just my own inability to manage stance and fatigue that makes them feel so good.

[pettka 694]

Can we get more information on that? Will the very old AI issues (like the inability get them to move fast under fire) get attention?

I would say that at least some of the old issues have been already fixed as described in the Captain's AI log, and the squad is going to work on more as soon as the new features are ready enough :icon_twisted:

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

Yeah I was aware of that, I was just talking about shooting specifically. I know injury will make the ai aim worse, but I didn't know fatigue does as well. I will have to do some tests on it. It felt like fatigue doesn't effeect the ai aiming (at all/enough) but maybe that is just my ignorance. Thats why I need to test it. To see if they are legitimately too good or its just my own inability to manage stance and fatigue that makes them feel so good.

No idea how exactly fatigue is affecting AI aim, I tried various AI subskill settings yesterday and it always seemed to have nearly no effect regarding AI fatigue. What I also discovered (which currently bugs me most) is that if a player gets hit the weapon sway is incredibly intense, even with a small rifle, you can barely hit something 50m away, AI doesn't have that weapon sway, at least from what I observed.

After hitting an AI unit in the hands they seem to have no problems aiming spot on.

[oukej 2911]

After hitting an AI unit in the hands they seem to have no problems aiming spot on.

In fact they receive the maximum error an AI can ever get ;) The speed of "recovery" is dependent on their skill (unlike some other aspects, I believe the skill effect here is quite pronounced). You can't really observe that visually (thru animations - there's no visible sway on AI), but you shouldn't get hit by the AI you've just shot (other than by pure bad luck;)).

At the same time I am not saying this purrfectly reflects the sway player receives in the current stable build.

[kremator 1065]

Would it ever be possible for the AI to drop weapons on damage to their arms, and obviously to pick it up again? In fact I'm sure the first reaction on being hit anywhere would be to drop the weapon temporarily.

[Bouben 3]

Would it ever be possible for the AI to drop weapons on damage to their arms, and obviously to pick it up again? In fact I'm sure the first reaction on being hit anywhere would be to drop the weapon temporarily.

Oh you dreamer...

And no, you don't necessary have to drop your weapon while hit. I saw a lot of videos when people continue to shoot even when hit multiple times. Of course, I am not sure if they were injured in arms/hands too.

[-Coulum- 35]

In fact they receive the maximum error an AI can ever get The speed of "recovery" is dependent on their skill (unlike some other aspects, I believe the skill effect here is quite pronounced). You can't really observe that visually (thru animations - there's no visible sway on AI), but you shouldn't get hit by the AI you've just shot (other than by pure bad luck).

At the same time I am not saying this purrfectly reflects the sway player receives in the current stable build.

But that is the immediate effect of getting hit correct? And then it goes away (apparently dependant on skill). That's all good! But its the permanent effect that seems lacking. Because when a player gets hit there is quite a bit of horizontal sway until he gets patched up. I think the ai is permantely less accurate (At least tests along long time ago proved so) but I certainy don't get the feeling it is harsh enough for the new sway system.

Anyhow I will be testing it all when I get the chance and formulate more concrete opinions after that.

[old_painless 183]

No idea how exactly fatigue is affecting AI aim, I tried various AI subskill settings yesterday and it always seemed to have nearly no effect regarding AI fatigue. What I also discovered (which currently bugs me most) is that if a player gets hit the weapon sway is incredibly intense, even with a small rifle, you can barely hit something 50m away, AI doesn't have that weapon sway, at least from what I observed.

After hitting an AI unit in the hands they seem to have no problems aiming spot on.

Todays changelog seems to contain some improvements here :

"Fixed: AI soldiers: dynamic error influenced by fatigue and damage"

:)

OP

[klamacz 448]

"Fixed: AI soldiers: dynamic error influenced by fatigue and damage"

Indeed, this commit is a first iteration of AI aiming error being changed by those factors. Generally, aiming error is not increased by fatigue or damage itself (wounds already increases it, movement and rotation as well), but it slows down the recovery of the error, making AI less accurate for longer time than if it would be rested/healthy. Feel free to comment on your experiences, internally this is going to be tweaked and improved soon. Have fun!

[.kju 3245]

Would be useful to expose these as config parameters to let community AI modders also try to tweak them.

[msy 22]

NO the issue has not been fixed yet!

Watch my video to see the Rapid Gunner The Marksman --cheating AI

[blackpixxel 53]

klamacz:

It is very important that the fire rate becomes variable too. When I am hurt in Arma 3 I drastically lower my rate of fire, because the weapon is less often on target. AI keeps spamming shots with high frequency.

My suggestion: Fatique and Health should also influene the rate of fire, at the moment it is just absurd.

[ebarstad 18]

NO the issue has not been fixed yet!

Watch my video to see the Rapid Gunner The Marksman --cheating AI

He didn't say it was fixed. He said it was the first iteration.

[-Coulum- 35]

NO the issue has not been fixed yet!

Watch my video to see the Rapid Gunner The Marksman --cheating AI

I think that this is what klamacz was saying wouldn't work. damage itself doesn't effect the ai aim, its the hits that effects it. So you literally have to hit them to see the effect (which you ddidn't do in the vid). Similarly, fatigue itself doesn't increase error, but when the ai moves it has error after that takes a while to go away... I think thats what he meant by...

Indeed, this commit is a first iteration of AI aiming error being changed by those factors. Generally, aiming error is not increased by fatigue or damage itself (wounds already increases it, movement and rotation as well), but it slows down the recovery of the error, making AI less accurate for longer time than if it would be rested/healthy. Feel free to comment on your experiences, internally this is going to be tweaked and improved soon. Have fun!

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting... because it doesn't seem ideal...

[devilslayersbane 28]

I think that this is what klamacz was saying wouldn't work. damage itself doesn't effect the ai aim, its the hits that effects it. So you literally have to hit them to see the effect (which you ddidn't do in the vid). Similarly, fatigue itself doesn't increase error, but when the ai moves it has error after that takes a while to go away... I think thats what he meant by...

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting... because it doesn't seem ideal...

Well, it depends. If you think about it, when someone is aware of you before you are aware of them, they are going to react quicker and much more relaxed. Not only that, but when you and the AI first spawn in, you're both perfectly fatigued. The AI also only hit the guy when prone (kinda like he did). Taking fire increased adrenaline and encourages you to take cover. For this to be a real test of the AI, it needs to be more of an even playing field. Get a mission where the AI cannot begin firing from prone before you can react. Make it a random one-man patrol so you don't know where he's coming from and set his waypoints to aware so like you he doesn't have to worry about raising his guns. That way, you can see how the AI behaves when it first reacts to incoming fire, when it delivers first fire and when it returns fire. Fatigue should play an equal part for both of you if you play smart.

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

The biggest problem is that the default AI behavior is "AWARE" when you place them in the editor.

No wonder they react as fast as they do.

Try setting their behavior to "Safe" and observe how much longer it takes them to spot you/react.

They shouldn't be able to have a 75% hit accuracy when being at below 30% health though, because as a player you don't have that either.

[maturin 12]

Safe behavior is a recipe for stupidity.

It doesn't matter how relaxed or secure you are. As soon as the first bullet goes past your head, you will be instantly in DANGER mode. Putting AI patrols in SAFE mode and letting them wander blithely around in no-man's-land is the ArmA missionmaker version of a stealth-arcade ego-shooter.

[Grumpy Old Man 3546]

Unless I'm mistaken AI will automatically do just that, go into danger mode.

Where's the problem?

[Fushko 59]

Unless I'm mistaken AI will automatically do just that, go into danger mode.

Where's the problem?

The problem is that, very often, it takes an unrealistic amount of time for the AI to go from SAFE to DANGER mode. Even if a round obviously flew right past them, sometimes they don't even notice.

[maturin 12]

Precisely. It's broken and can't be trusted.

[spanishsurfer 58]

Question for you AI experts. The BECTI Warfare - Seattle, WA server is having an issue with night time and I suspect it could be AI related (we use ASR AI server side). Under a large player load (30+ players) and a night time setting the server FPS goes down to 5-7fps. If I change it to day time server FPS immediately jump back to healthy levels of 35-40fps. Also, during times when we are reaching DUSK (fading light) the server FPS goes into a nose dive. For the longest time I was confused on how night/dusk could effect server FPS since a dedicated server doesn't care about day/night until someone mentioned that AI visual reach is changing during this time. We have a HIGH AI count on the server (150-200+) and players can have anywhere from 4-11 AI each.

What do you guys think? Is this an AI issue or am I missing something? Why would server FPS decrease from 35-40fps to 5-7fps just because it's night time?

Thanks for the help!