AI Discussion (dev branch)

[ProfTournesol 956]

Isn't it simply possible to override the danger FSM with a simple command ? Or forcing the AI into aware mod ?

[Tonci87 163]

Well, the basic idea isn't bad. Don't promise something unless you can keep it.

However, silence is not always golden. By at least acknowledging the problem, you at least signal that the feedback isn't wasted and is actually heard. The issues listed above (rearming, automatic danger mode) and the associated problems (running off into the sunset, impossible to rearm, AI not boarding transport) have been mentioned a gazillion times, and I have yet to see anyone from BIS acknowledge them as problems. That is an issue. Even if you don't know whether/when you can fix it, at least saying "we are aware of the problem and will look into it" is already an important step (IMO)

^this

BTW

Any news on AI driving problems? Did the repros I provided help? Should I make more?

[froggyluv 2136]

It's not really about arcade shooter or casual gameplay. They added compass bearings and distance to the targeting, so why not to the rearming ?

Not sure as I made the initial suggestion for both but they ran with only the target threats...

[st_dux 26]

The disobedience of AI subordinates is no less important issue to us. We try to avoid responding to questions where the answer could inevitably impose false expectation - unless we are 95% sure that we can deliver the subject. Ain't it better than false promises and consequent disappointment? ;)

That's fair enough, but it seems to me that the issue could be solved almost entirely by simply disabling the automatic switch to combat mode that was added in A2 (or perhaps keeping it but providing the player with an option to override it). To my knowledge, this never happened in ArmA titles before A2: Units could be kept in an "Aware" (and more responsive) state even when under fire. Why isn't it possible to revert this?

[Bouben 3]

That's fair enough, but it seems to me that the issue could be solved almost entirely by simply disabling the automatic switch to combat mode that was added in A2 (or perhaps keeping it but providing the player with an option to override it). To my knowledge, this never happened in ArmA titles before A2: Units could be kept in an "Aware" (and more responsive) state even when under fire. Why isn't it possible to revert this?

I don't believe it is that easy to solve.

[NeMeSiS 11]

That's fair enough, but it seems to me that the issue could be solved almost entirely by simply disabling the automatic switch to combat mode that was added in A2 (or perhaps keeping it but providing the player with an option to override it). To my knowledge, this never happened in ArmA titles before A2: Units could be kept in an "Aware" (and more responsive) state even when under fire. Why isn't it possible to revert this?

Units automatically switched to combat mode since OFP.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Units automatically switched to combat mode since OFP.

Yep, but combat mode was lighter at that time, units were still responsive to orders.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yep, but combat mode was lighter at that time, units were still responsive to orders.

True, but my point was that removing auto combat mode would not solve anything, and create a bunch of problems on its own. The default behavior is currently quite fine, but a "stop auto behavior and do what I told you" command is what should be added. Currently retreating is impossible, and every time it is needed I just abandon my squad, no point in trying to save them at the moment.

On the other hand: I do like it that medics don't run to you when you are wounded in the middle of a field and under fire, trying to help you in such a moment would be a retarded decision anyway, so I do think ai autonomy overriding orders has it's place.

[ProfTournesol 956]

True, but my point was that removing auto combat mode would not solve anything, and create a bunch of problems on its own. The default behavior is currently quite fine, but a "stop auto behavior and do what I told you" command is what should be added. Currently retreating is impossible, and every time it is needed I just abandon my squad, no point in trying to save them at the moment..

Yes, or something like "mimic what i'm doing, until told otherwise". There's already such command, "copy my stance" IIRC, but it's useless. Could be changed into "Copy my moves" or "follow my lead".

[fabrizio_t 58]

True, but my point was that removing auto combat mode would not solve anything, and create a bunch of problems on its own. The default behavior is currently quite fine, but a "stop auto behavior and do what I told you" command is what should be added. Currently retreating is impossible, and every time it is needed I just abandon my squad, no point in trying to save them at the moment.

On the other hand: I do like it that medics don't run to you when you are wounded in the middle of a field and under fire, trying to help you in such a moment would be a retarded decision anyway, so I do think ai autonomy overriding orders has it's place.

Yes, removing combat mode altogether would just create more issues.

The only necessary thing is being able to somewhat override combat behaviour whenever needed: that's the point of commanding.

Also i hope BIS will look deeply into combat mechanics: to my eyes AI is constantly struggling between moving into cover and staying in formation, hence the endless "stop&go" behaviour.

[Variable 322]

Yes, removing combat mode altogether would just create more issues.

The only necessary thing is being able to somewhat override combat behaviour whenever needed: that's the point of commanding.

Also i hope BIS will look deeply into combat mechanics: to my eyes AI is constantly struggling between moving into cover and staying in formation, hence the endless "stop&go" behaviour.

Indeed. The existing disengage command, in addition to what it does now, should make the AI do the following:

1. Switch back to "Aware" mode or to a new "Disengage" mode.

2. In the new mode, by default, AI should sprint and attempt to stay in formation at all costs.

3. In this new mode, when ordering AI to perform specific tasks such as "Move to", "Get in vehicle", "Heal", "First Aid" etc., the AI shall move to perform these tasks while sprinting and ignoring enemy fire.

I know this is somewhat unrealistic but the gameplay advantages are just too obvious to have it in any other way without going into complex specification of AI disengaged behavior under fire.

[Bouben 3]

Indeed. The existing disengage command, in addition to what it does now, should make the AI do the following:

1. Switch back to "Aware" mode or to a new "Disengage" mode.

2. In the new mode, by default, AI should sprint and attempt to stay in formation at all costs.

3. In this new mode, when ordering AI to perform specific tasks such as "Move to", "Get in vehicle", "Heal", "First Aid" etc., the AI shall move to perform these tasks while sprinting and ignoring enemy fire.

I know this is somewhat unrealistic but the gameplay advantages are just too obvious to have it in any other way without going into complex specification of AI disengaged behavior under fire.

If it should be a behaviour mode then it would be wise to leave it under 7 between other combat modes (aware, stealth, combat, safe) and not in the engage section. It could be called "the slave mode"...

[Variable 322]

If it should be a behaviour mode then it would be wise to leave it under 7 between other combat modes (aware, stealth, combat, safe) and not in the engage section. It could be called "the slave mode"...

I wouldn't call it that hehe :) but yeah, I think it should be in the combat state menu rather in the "engage" menu. I also think that the disengage mode should be available ONLY once the AI enters its automatic danger mode. In any other case the option to set the AI disengage mode should be greyed out.

[Bouben 3]

I wouldn't call it that hehe :) but yeah, I think it should be in the combat state menu rather in the "engage" menu. I also think that the disengage mode should be available ONLY once the AI enters its automatic danger mode. In any other case the option to set the AI disengage mode should be greyed out.

You seem to miss the point of the current "Disengage" command. It is used to cancel the "Engage at will" command. It has no any other purpose so I wouldn't use that command for anything else.

If you knew that already, then I am sorry.

[KeyCat 131]

...The default behavior is currently quite fine, but a "stop auto behavior and do what I told you" command is what should be added. Currently retreating is impossible, and every time it is needed I just abandon my squad, no point in trying to save them at the moment.

^ This!

Similar issue exists for vehicles/helicopters (or at least did in A2:OA). Once engaged you can not order them break contact even if they are heavily damaged, they will keep engaging until they die or win no matter what. It would be much better and life like if they had some kind of self preservation where they at least tried to retreat to repair when damage reached some limit.

I tried to solve it using scripts in A2:OA but without a command that disables their auto behavior it just worked so so on vehicles/helicopters and quite porly on infantry so some form of "AI override" is badly needed.

/KC

[msy 22]

The disobedience of AI subordinates is no less important issue to us. We try to avoid responding to questions where the answer could inevitably impose false expectation - unless we are 95% sure that we can deliver the subject. Ain't it better than false promises and consequent disappointment? ;)

Please learn something from RTS games.

---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

I don't believe it is that easy to solve.

OFP:Risistance did better than AMRA3. The problem is just that BIS want to make a more complex AI system but it turns out that AI is like suffering from a DDOS attack -- they can't deal with the order by player in the complex surroungding environment.

And this is my suggestion:

If AI can't get a better IQ and EQ, then they'd better to be just FORREST GUMP. When I say run they will run which is the best.

And never ever intend to make AI like a rebellious teenager.

Edited April 28, 2014 by msy

[Bouben 3]

Please learn something from RTS games.

---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

OFP:Risistance did better than AMRA3. The problem is just that BIS want to make a more complex AI system but it turns out that AI is like suffering from a DDOS attack -- they can't deal with the order by player in the complex surroungding environment.

And this is my suggestion:

If AI can't get a better IQ and EQ, then they'd better to be just FORREST GUMP. When I say run they will run which is the best.

And never ever intend to make AI like a rebellious teenager.

The AI handle most of my orders quite well. Even move orders. The problem is "only" with keeping formation in combat mode, but that can be partly-solved by switching formation to diamond or file.

Arma 3's AI is most certainly far ahead OFP: Resistance. Of course, there are many things to improve.

[Alwarren 2767]

The problem is "only" with keeping formation in combat mode

Or getting them to enter a vehicle in combat mode.

[Bouben 3]

Or getting them to enter a vehicle in combat mode.

Yes, of course.

[Variable 322]

You seem to miss the point of the current "Disengage" command. It is used to cancel the "Engage at will" command. It has no any other purpose so I wouldn't use that command for anything else.

If you knew that already, then I am sorry.

No problem, but please re-read my latest posts. I'm well aware of the current use of the disengage command. The only resemblance between the current disengage command, and my suggestion, is a common name. I offered a disengaged status to be added to the combat mode menu (that you get when clicking on 7. Not 3, which gets you to the "engage" menu and where you get the current disengage command).

[msy 22]

The AI handle most of my orders quite well. Even move orders. The problem is "only" with keeping formation in combat mode, but that can be partly-solved by switching formation to diamond or file.

Arma 3's AI is most certainly far ahead OFP: Resistance. Of course, there are many things to improve.

Not your orders but the complex environment and kinds of judgements and seletions make AI out of control。

[Magirot 14]

In the latest version, at least in dedicated server MP, thrown chemlights and smoke grenades keep bouncing in and out of the terrain after they've hit the ground. Anyone else getting this?

Edit: Crap, wrong thread. Sorry, ignore this.

[Variable 322]

The problem is "only" with keeping formation in combat mode, but that can be partly-solved by switching formation to diamond or file.

Or get in a static weapon, or move to a waypoint, or heal another unit. The problem is definitely not restricted for the AI ability to keep formation! They have a problem with following orders when in danger mode, and this is how this problem should be described. Any other way just diminishes the scale of this design flaw.

This problem is best presents itself when the AI is refusing to sprint and re-position when they are being ranged under a volley of mortars.

[Bouben 3]

Or get in a static weapon, or move to a waypoint, or heal another unit. The problem is definitely not restricted for the AI ability to keep formation! They have a problem with following orders when in danger mode, and this is how this problem should be described. Any other way just diminishes the scale of this design flaw.

This problem is best presents itself when the AI is refusing to sprint and re-position when they are being ranged under a volley of mortars.

There is absolutely no problem to move an AI unit to an ordered waypoint in combat mode. They move as if in aware mode and only occasional stopping to check. You have to use the on-map waypoint (shift+click) to force AI to the slow combat mode movement. So there is no problem with standard waypoints issued during gameplay. Waypoints placed in editor are different, of course (same behaviour as with shift+click waypoints - units are slow). All type of waypoints need a way of ignoring targets and incoming fire though.

Heal behaviour is also absolutely OK and rational.

A static weapon is only another type of vehicle in Arma, so nothing new and already mentioned.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

Not your orders but the complex environment and kinds of judgements and seletions make AI out of control。

Can you be more specific? I thought we are talking about AI not obeying orders.

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

No problem, but please re-read my latest posts. I'm well aware of the current use of the disengage command. The only resemblance between the current disengage command, and my suggestion, is a common name. I offered a disengaged status to be added to the combat mode menu (that you get when clicking on 7. Not 3, which gets you to the "engage" menu and where you get the current disengage command).

Roger that.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bouben

[NeMeSiS 11]

There is absolutely no problem to move an AI unit to an ordered waypoint in combat mode. They move as if in aware mode and only occasional stopping to check.

Maybe if there are no enemies in sight, but i just tried it, and as long as they have a unit in direct LOS they will pretty much stay where they are until the fight is over, or they are dead.