Discussion on "Axed" Features

[dale0404 5]

It is very easy to part quote someone and for it to mean something totally different. As some people on these forums are very apt in doing so.

[Primarch 10]

I think that You have seen many more responses in this thread before it started to go completely off topic. Quoting a part of it to make completely different meaning of it just raises a chaos level which I strive against :icon_twisted: To be sincere, I, and many more, have read through this whole topic (as we usually do for most of forums), but giving the same answer again and again doesn't make it any better neither for us nor for the community.

It must feel really nice to know that there are people here that will take any comment you make then twist and rape it until it doesn't resemble the meaning you had for it.

Then after that they'll be like very smug and state their "very educated" opinion: "Oh but it's this guy's fault that the game is such a failure".

[Variable 322]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what quote was twisted, raped and taken out of context?

[windies 11]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what quote was twisted, raped and taken out of context?

Same, I take what Pettka said to basically mean if ACE, or any other mod, can do it as good as we can, why should we waste our time on it. Problem with that is it's going from mods improving things about the engine and the game, to mods fixing things about the engine and the game.

It's good to hear from Jay that someone is looking into the AI, I just hope that they can at least make them a little better before launch.

[Binkowski 25]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what quote was twisted, raped and taken out of context?

I don't either. BI devs like to give cryptic responses.

[noubernou 77]

Wow, didn't mean to kick up such a shit-storm. Believe me when I say I stand behind BIS. There really isn't a better game developer out there in terms of community involvement, and maybe airing my grievances here was not appropriate due to the maturity level of some of the forum users.

Again, I just want to reiterate that while I personally have issue with the content of A3, I also feel that BIS has delivered on most of their promises. My problem is that some of those promises were misguided. I know almost no one who cares about underwater combat or being able to scuba dive or any of that. Most people I talk to feel that time developing that feature could have gone into significantly more useful features that we've been asking for years to have, like terrain clipping for below ground structures (which exists in VBS2, but has some issues, though we feel that the implementation could have been refined and included in A3 with the same amount of hours devoted to this scuba stuff). Being able to make real fortified fighting positions that are below ground would be something useful for every single aspect of the game, community made or official, and its something that is severely lacking in a game that is so focused around infantry combat.

The other things (outside of big stuff like a reworked terrain engine altogether) are just niceties that I know I personally would like to have and so would a number of other key community members. They weren't promised to us, but we feel that its high time that we have access to them (like more granular control of AI units, etc).

[metalcraze 290]

Sorry? Lack of communication? Which planet have you been on?

A planet where for the good half of 2012 and until March a blackout in info happens

And then devs staying mostly silent after alpha release?

For example we've learned that medic system is canned not from a dev post on a forum or dev blog, but from a dev telling this to a Gamespot journo at E3 this June. Are you saying it's not the lack of communication?

*shrug* Same can be said of the opposite - that the persistent claims of dumbing down, simplification, removal of "realism", inability to implement "realism" and general accusations of development incompetence will remove any motivation they have to communicate.

Yes there should be no criticism of what BIS is doing. There's totally no dumbing down and removal of realism in ArmA3. We just have to praise BIS all the time because that will surely help.

If you believe they are not good at communicating, then I suggest you are no familiar with other studios' ways. We're communicated with a heck of a lot more than just about any other studio (that isn't trying to kickstart).

Devs posting on forums and devs saying which feature is canned before money are spent not telling it months and months after money were spent are two very very different things.

Honestly if we had a lot more info before alpha release instead of almost total silence this thread wouldn't have existed.

After all BIS told us no to expect 3D editor and look - no 30+ pages missing editor drama thread and rather rare mentions here. Magic of communication!

I honestly expected good encumbrance and medic system up until a few weeks ago because I didn't know they aren't going to happen. Coupled with BIS suddenly shifting focus to dull "balanced" weapons - of course I'm upset.

Edited July 16, 2013 by metalcraze

[Kemeros 1]

I personally like the scuba stuff. I do understand where you're coming from though. I'm a bit biased since i scuba dive myself sometimes.

Is it really too late for that stuff? Is a full release in fall necessary? It's not like people can't access the game at all... People can still play A2 too while they wait.

[pettka 694]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what quote was twisted, raped and taken out of context?

The original message was:

You got it a bit wrong - Arma 3 is a sandbox platform. We provide the core and features we are able to finish in certain quality. I believe that our improved radio protocol is more than enough for most of players, why would we even bother to spend our resources on something if we could just say "Hey, use ACRE for that"? If the community is able to provide anything better, we would like to promote the content and make it as accessible as possible within our resources (missions on Steam Workshop anyone?) :icon_twisted:

That means we improve things to consistent level, anyone wanting something different is able and encouraged to use some mod that suits him better - our goal is to deliver consistent gameplay for our players :icon_twisted:

The part of the meaning, that was completely missing by the twisted quotation, was that we do improve the stuff, don't make our community to fix it instead of us.

[-ghost-tf 12]

You are taking the quotes out of the context and are still surprised there is a lack of communication with you? :icon_twisted:

Alright.

that the persistent claims of dumbing down, simplification, removal of "realism", inability to implement "realism" and general accusations of development incompetence will remove any motivation they have to communicate.

Only problem is they are not just blind "claims".

[7/13/13 7:50:13 AM] FM: I just want realism (not necessarily real life) and simulation. The era or genre doesn't really matter much. I remember the sci if add ons for Ofp, I think in some way they helped open up the game.

[7/13/13 11:48:36 AM] David Foltyn: ACE3 and PR and similar will deal with the 'realism' ...

[7/13/13 11:49:59 AM] CD (Nou): lol

[7/13/13 11:50:19 AM] CD (Nou): or we'll make our own games

[7/13/13 11:50:29 AM] CD (Nou): why do your work for free?

You got it a bit wrong - Arma 3 is a sandbox platform. We provide the core and features we are able to finish in certain quality. I believe that our improved radio protocol is more than enough for most of players, why would we even bother to spend our resources on something if we could just say "Hey, use ACRE for that"? If the community is able to provide anything better, we would like to promote the content and make it as accessible as possible within our resources (missions on Steam Workshop anyone?) :icon_twisted:

I honestly dont see how taking the quotes out of context, would make a big difference in this case. The point i'm trying to make is still the same. Lets look at the skype conversation, all the other sentences dont matter much, only what Dwarden said. Although Nou has some valid points, why would they spend hours and hours modding ACE to add more realism to arma 3 (for free) if the game is moving away from realism (my opinion), or not showing support.

Everyone has access to the part I quoted, infact I'm pretty sure almost the whole community has read the devs responses in this thread, so DMarkWick (and others should) know where I quoted this from, in no way I meant to twist the quote or whatever. Just wanted to refer back to something the devs said earlier in this thread, but oh well lets get back on topic.

Since this is a thread about "Axed" features, lets take a look at what has actually been axed (for arma3 release):

-JAVA

I'm still not sure about this one, I guess this is also for post release?

27 Februari 2013

We have not abandoned Java, and we want Object-Oriented scripting.

AFAIK in one of the livestreams someone mentioned there wont be java in the beta.

-The player will be able to attach explosive charges to enemy boat hulls and other vehicles.

That was scripted prototype. Unfortunately this feature wasn't fully implemented and it doesn't have priority now.

-The game will feature an improved wounding system (no specifics for as of yet).

IMO it is not improved because:

How about:

Punishment if shot/injured in the legs.

Bigger aiming shake if shot in the arm/hands (should not be able to simply fix by holding breath).

An unconcious/wounded state.

Dying from bleeding out.

If it doesnt have these things or better, I would say it is worse then the arma 2 system?

And with arma2 system I obviously mean the arma 2 first aid module, pettka did reply but not fully as he thought we were talking about the vanilla arma2 medic system. But:

I think we are talking about Vanilla OA with the medical system module. Something "most" consider the "lowest" standard.

-There will be a drop down menu in the editor where you can customize your soldiers gear such as camo,headgear,eye wear, ballistic vest and backpack.

Not sure if this is still going to make it before release, post release or just axed.

-Fast-roping will be sported by the engine.

AFAIK this has been axed.

-Vehicles can now be towed.

AFAIK this has been axed.

-The MP chat system will be improved.

I see no improvement with the chat or VON system?

-The ToH flight model will be the default flight model for all the helicopters and will be used in the SP campaign as well.

Axed, might show up post release.

-3D editor.

AFAIK this has been axed.

sometimes one says in euphory what is then axed ;( ... trust me i would love to give you all (double time for mappers) great realtime 3D editor for everything ;)

The next things are either IMO broken, still have problems or still missing:

-Movement and aiming has been improved.

Movement and aiming is a big improvement over the arma 2 clunky system, but this has brought alot of new issues with it.

With the lack of inertia, weapon weight/size not mattering, the game has switched from using good tactics to defeat your enemy, to having the fastest mouse to defeat your enemy. Atm it feels like playing counterstrike, while some may think of this as an improvement, I and many other "realism" players dont.

-Your load out will affect your mobility- enhanced fatigue system. The more you carry the faster you will become fatigues and this will affect your aim.

This is IMO broken, dont feel like bringing the fatigue discussion in this thread so ill just link to the thread.

-Improved MP interface.

MP GUI redesign and MP improvements (lot of things are WIP)

* might happen prior or at release or soon after, but i don't want promise it until i know we can deliver :)

I guess time will tell.

-Headgear will offer different levels of projectile protection.

In latest dev build headgear doesnt offer any projectile projection, hopefully WIP.

-Objects like tactical vests will have weight and different carrying capacities as well as different protection values.

About carrying capacities Id like to again reference to the beta fatigue effects thread.

-The game will feature more powerfull sounds, similar to popular sound mods.

Hopefully still WIP, because atm it still has issues. About similar to popular sound mods, no offense but not even close to JSRS.

-Stereo sounds for weapons and vehicles estimated to use around 50 samples for their engine and exhaust, and 20 samples for the wheels on differing terrain.

What happened to this?

-4 times more detailed ground textures.

The community came with a very nice solution to the midrange textures, but still this issue has not been fixed.

-Improved micro AI and path finding.

AI has ALOT of work to do, I personally was hoping for things like suppression actually being usefull etc, but it seems that even basic AI behaviour is not working properly, and with 3 months now passed and little to no progress with AI (at least what we can see) this leaves quite a few questionmarks.

Most of the features that made me buy arma 3 are axed or just "simplified", and with devs themselfes saying (or at least thats what I understand) that "realism" features will be saved for ACE (Which is now just a few questionmarks about wether there will or wont be an ACE3), makes me as a customer very dissappointed. And honestly with all the bugs that have been around for years still not being fixed, most wanted community features being skipped for post release, I dont really see any improvement from arma 2 other then visuals.

I used the confirmed features thread, and I assume there have been valid sources for these confirmed features. Everything I said is my opinion, and ofcourse im probably wrong on many things so feel free to correct me, or again, give me an infraction for making false accusations..

Edited July 16, 2013 by -Ghost-TF

[PuFu 4591]

Sorry what? Devs hyped features on an official website and in presentations - how is that a "wishlist" or not misleading? ArmA3 dev process was anything but open. Because till this month mostly fanboys had to speak for the devs.

Might be the lack of time on my part then. What are those hyped features i beg to ask? 3d editor?

edit: nevermind, someone actually listed some of those "promised" features.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

That means we improve things to consistent level, anyone wanting something different is able and encouraged to use some mod that suits him better - our goal is to deliver consistent gameplay for our players :icon_twisted:

The part of the meaning, that was completely missing by the twisted quotation, was that we do improve the stuff, don't make our community to fix it instead of us.

If you are to obviously include mods and promote them (and you said mods not missions), wouldn't be a smart move to actually have a proper system for once for syncing between server and client, allowing said client to download a mod without the need to manually search for it? Or, just like with ACE and ACRE, the fact that sickboy did this already is enough for you?

[noubernou 77]

The part of the meaning, that was completely missing by the twisted quotation, was that we do improve the stuff, don't make our community to fix it instead of us.

We do drive some of the fixes though. We (and by we I mean Jaynus, since he is the IDA god) had to decompile and reverse engineer a significant portion of the game to get Jlib in. Took 18+ months for BIS to integrate external API calls as an official function. :p You could also call ACRE a fix for VON, since its consistently worked better than the in engine implementation.

Also since Java isn't going to be in soon (and I don't blame you, I think Java was the wrong choice) I've started out to replace SQF on my own. ;)

That being said, I don't mind doing it, it is fun... Not sure why I do it for free, thats another story, but fixing other peoples stuff is fun a lot of the times. Gives you a bit of an ego boost! :D

[metalcraze 290]

That means we improve things to consistent level, anyone wanting something different is able and encouraged to use some mod that suits him better - our goal is to deliver consistent gameplay for our players :icon_twisted:

The part of the meaning, that was completely missing by the twisted quotation, was that we do improve the stuff, don't make our community to fix it instead of us.

It would've been all neat and tidy if not for ArmA3 taking 2 steps back for each step forward.

And sadly we now do have to rely on mods to bring ArmA3 to ArmA2 gameplay standards due to load and medic system (that eliminates medics) being a lot worse. Due to non existent weapon weight. Non existent recoil for .50 cal guns. Weapons that mirror each other with enemies employing literally the same weapon systems. AI still suffers from 12 years old issues that aren't even complex but hardcoded into the engine (like turn speed limit while the player has none) and those that aren't still require mods to fix (like 2 AI squads being completely oblivious to each other's enemies despite being 100m apart... or not being able to deploy a smoke grenade - since OFP)

That's a level that is only consistent with arcade shooters, not with ArmA.

Edited July 16, 2013 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

Wow, didn't mean to kick up such a shit-storm. Believe me when I say I stand behind BIS. There really isn't a better game developer out there in terms of community involvement, and maybe airing my grievances here was not appropriate due to the maturity level of some of the forum users.

It's so sad when I see material (not yours) that's borderline ripped out of the Perfect World forums for Star Trek Online, that's how bad some of the BI forums can be. :lol:

My problem is that some of those promises were misguided.

There's an earlier post of Jay Crowe's saying that yeah, he thinks that it was unfortunate to have made certain claims/statements.

I know almost no one who cares about underwater combat or being able to scuba dive or any of that. Most people I talk to feel that time developing that feature could have gone into significantly more useful features that we've been asking for years to have, like terrain clipping for below ground structures (which exists in VBS2, but has some issues, though we feel that the implementation could have been refined and included in A3 with the same amount of hours devoted to this scuba stuff).

I don't believe that a dev will talk about this any time soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if (as with the future setting perhaps?) underwater was "because someone wanted it" and because "wanting it" = more give-a-damn. You may not care about underwater, but I'm liking it, I appreciate what they did with it and frankly I'd rather keep it than some of what others have called for. :rolleyes:

-Fast-roping will be sported by the engine.

AFAIK this has been axed.

Yep, Ivan confirmed it at Gamescom 2012 in that one "Gamescom trip report" by Old Bear that was released onto armedassault.info back then.

-3D editor.

AFAIK this has been axed.

That was axed almost a year ago, although as metalcraze noted, we haven't had a public uproar because that was communicated to the community well in advance, just like with fast roping.

-Improved micro AI and path finding.

AI has ALOT of work to do, I personally was hoping for things like suppression actually being usefull etc, but it seems that even basic AI behaviour is not working properly, and with 3 months now passed and little to no progress with AI (at least what we can see) this leaves quite a few questionmarks.

AI in particular has been discussed by Jay Crowe here and here, although there Jay calls it "managing expectations". As far as units speaking too much over the radio instead of "directly"... apparently one of the 'development hindrances' was a relevant programmer recently breaking his collarbone. (Jay does dryly note here that "Fixing the damn bug often results in a cascade of new feature (requests), though. :)")

Most of the features that made me buy arma 3 are axed or just "simplified", and with devs themselfes saying (or at least thats what I understand) that "realism" features will be saved for ACE (Which is now just a few questionmarks about wether there will or wont be an ACE3), makes me as a customer very dissappointed. And honestly with all the bugs that have been around for years still not being fixed, most wanted community features being skipped for post release, I dont really see any improvement from arma 2 other then visuals.

I used the confirmed features thread, and I assume there have been valid sources for these confirmed features. Everything I said is my opinion, and ofcourse im probably wrong on many things so feel free to correct me, or again, give me an infraction for making false accusations..

According to NouberNou ACE3 is still happening: "ACE is a much larger group. Work continues on A3 there. I am just holding off personally on a few things till I see where A3 lands (for example, its still pre-release, stuff isn't final, I don't want to waste time working on something that is going to be broken the next week due to a change in the engine)." (ACRE is a different story, but there he's the self-described sole ACRE modder while ACRE can be ported to Arma 3 anyway, "in terms of where it goes first and where the compatibility testing lays the most it is entirely on A2 right now.")

As for visuals... to be quite honest, now I only use Arma 2/OA for testing Arma 2 mods in their native environment, otherwise it's all A3 all the time, with All in Arma if I feel like loading up one of said mods. :lol:

[Dwarden 1124]

[13. 7. 2013 20:48] David Foltyn: ACE3 and PR and similar will deal with the 'realism' ...

[13. 7. 2013 20:52] David Foltyn: Nou the point is even if we deliver xyz, there will be another Klirt claiming we missed to deliver ABC

... and that's just w/o rest of the covno ... stop using 'single line' quotes from some discussion if you have no idea who all was in the channel involved and what the subject was about... it's not some 1on1 convo

[Smurf 12]

Okay, since we are back to axed features and Devs are verry chatty, what happened to the "soft shadows"? WIP, postponed or axed?

Same bird, cockpit view don't have it. You can see a clear difference on the blades shadows.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Smurf

[purepassion 22]

Okay, since we are back to axed features and Devs are verry chatty, what happened to the "soft shadows"? WIP, postponed or axed?

Same bird, cockpit view don't have it.

While it's not really on the topic of "axed" features as the soft shadows are there but just not configured for everything, I really wonder why that is the case. They are superior in every aspect! The look absolutely better, more realistic and not "not sharp enough for close objects"! These jittered soft shadows should and have to be omnipresent.

[BigBoss 10]

While it's not really on the topic of "axed" features as the soft shadows are there but just not configured for everything, I really wonder why that is the case. They are superior in every aspect! The look absolutely better, more realistic and not "not sharp enough for close objects"! These jittered soft shadows should and have to be omnipresent.

AFAIK they not only look better, but they would also free some CPU power up, because unlike stencil shadows, they don't rely on it as much.

[Anachoretes 10]

You talking about something like that? Is not so easy - Pixel Shaders always linear in hunger, as i know. But simpler in use.

But there's a catch with such complicated thing as a "family tradition". You can't just throw out old grandmother teapot. :)

Edited July 17, 2013 by Anachoretes

[denco 16]

And sadly we now do have to rely on mods to bring ArmA3 to ArmA2 gameplay standards due to load and medic system (that eliminates medics) being a lot worse. Due to non existent weapon weight. Non existent recoil for .50 cal guns.

What medic system do you mean in Arma 2. You mean that horrific first aid module, that damned thing ruined all the SP missions for me since its so unrealistic. I hate it and I don't want to ever see it in arma, ever. How do you guys even support that implantation of the wounding system is beyond my comprehension. But I do agree they should give the first aid kits to medics only so that they have some use, giving them to all was/is a stupid idea and I really don't know what the developers were thinking. Weapon weight and recoil will get updated before the release i reckon.

[dmarkwick 261]

What medic system do you mean in Arma 2. You mean that horrific first aid module, that damned thing ruined all the SP missions for me since its so unrealistic. I hate it and I don't want to ever see it in arma, ever. How do you guys even support that implantation of the wounding system is beyond my comprehension. But I do agree they should give the first aid kits to medics only so that they have some use, giving them to all was/is a stupid idea and I really don't know what the developers were thinking. Weapon weight and recoil will get updated before the release i reckon.

Current implementation is a little arcadey yes, but at least they can be removed by mission maker. IMO it would be more appropriate to implement it so that it only stopped the bleeding so you don't get worse. (With perhaps a small health increase.) If this can be implemented via addon then there's no real problem.

[Varanon 892]

Current implementation is a little arcadey yes, but at least they can be removed by mission maker. IMO it would be more appropriate to implement it so that it only stopped the bleeding so you don't get worse. (With perhaps a small health increase.)

I would prefer that as well. Unfortunately, I think the First Aid Kit's use is hardcoded within the engine, which means it will not be possible by a mission maker to override this functionality.

If this can be implemented via addon then there's no real problem.

Yes, there is a real problem. Again, saying "an addon will fix it" is a pretty lame excuse.

Why not make the first aid kits have NO functionality at all, and only make them actually do something by adding a module to the mission ?

Hence, add the module, and you get the current default behavior. Add another module, and you get the "stop bleeding only" behavior. The module concept is very handy and in Arma 3, they went the right way and added a lot more modules to the game, so why not make use of that ?

[pauliesss 2]

So, regarding the 3D Editor, do we have an official confirmation that it won't be added to Arma 3 ever(not in beta, nor post-release) ?

Argh, I wish they would at least fix the 2D Editor..

Edited July 17, 2013 by Pauliesss

[dale0404 5]

Current implementation is a little arcadey yes, but at least they can be removed by mission maker. IMO it would be more appropriate to implement it so that it only stopped the bleeding so you don't get worse. (With perhaps a small health increase.) If this can be implemented via addon then there's no real problem.

As far as I an aware, healing yourself puts your health to 80%, only a medic can fully heal you.

[-ghost-tf 12]

As far as I an aware, healing yourself puts your health to 80%, only a medic can fully heal you.

Yes, but being on 80% health doesnt really have any downsides, so why would you bother letting a medic fix you? (other then to get rid of the injured- sounds)