Discussion on "Axed" Features

[Tonci87 163]

Hmm maybe it should heal you only to lets say 60%.

[metalcraze 290]

And there will be no difference again.

Right now there's only one really negative effect to getting shot. But there's a catch.

You must be hit in the leg. Then you must wait until apparently the soldier will realize he's been shot in the leg and will be able to only walk (remember there's no bleeding out, it's just cosmetic). And then you also must not have any FAKs laying anywhere because any FAK fixes that only negative effect of leg-shot.

All these conditions have to tick for you to ever need a medic. And as you understand chances of this happening are very very slim.

Edited July 17, 2013 by metalcraze

[Primarch 10]

What it should do, is raise your health up to 80 but there should be severe shaking when you aim and visible limping (screen shake downwards).

Only a medic can remove them and only one debuff at a time. At 20 health you should be incapacitated and unable to rotate your body.

Also when you get hit, your movement speed should be much slower for five seconds. This is called tagging. It plays a massive role in removing sprinting through open areas in CS:GO, I can't discern why it would not work here.

[-ghost-tf 12]

Yep, on 60% health there is no difference, still no downsides. If you take 6 pistol rounds in the arm, you can still perfectly shoot with no shake at all, as long as you hold right mouse button (and this is while standing). It takes 6 pistol rounds in the leg before your soldier wont be able to run anymore, but like metalcraze said, the medic is pretty much still useless because as long as there is a FAK lying around somewhere, this negative effect can be fixed.

[Smurf 12]

@Devs: Please? http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159007-Discussion-on-quot-Axed-quot-Features&p=2442904&viewfull=1#post2442904

@Medics:

A3: You get shot 1-4 times => If you don't die => use an FAK and get *80% back => Medic to full restore.

Bleeding doesn't seems to be an issue.

Sufficient damage to the legs => Forced walk.

A2 (with modules): You get shot 1-4 times => If you don't die:

a) Yourself or somebody may patch you up (I really don't remember that well...)

b) You go to the "ache in my tommy" animation and stay there until someone can give you first aid; or you die bleeding; or someone "gib" you. Drag and carry animations!

Once you get up, only a medic can full restore you.

Sufficient damage to the legs => Forced prone.

Hurt sounds, greater sway are in both.

______

IMO, a better\depper medical system isn't just for realism sake but for gameplay. Now you get shot and you are either alive or dead; you don't have a middle term, there isn't a "battle for buddy", less "squad play". Kind of reminds me of Rainbow Six but there you had quick action\mission, aftermath wasn't and issue. In a large scale game (terrain, missions, units) it is too simple and unforgiven.

I reckon that the "tools" (animations included) to expand the system are there, there is little time to make a proper thing for release, but think on that.

[metalcraze 290]

Sway in A2 is of a lot harsher consequence. In A3 it's completely negated when prone and is only a minor inconvenience when crouched. But why would you make shots from a standing stance anyway unless you are ArmA AI that doesn't know about the crouching stance?

[Masharra 10]

Kind of reminds me of Rainbow Six but there you had quick action\mission, aftermath wasn't and issue. In a large scale game (terrain, missions, units) it is too simple and unforgiven.

I would disagree slightly. There was a harsh penalty. That soldier was dead unable to be used in any future missions. also known as restart and plan your approach 10 times because I WILL BE DAMNED IF I LET Galanos, Kure Die and she will be my recon and assault specialist. I dont care that she is a sniper!

on topic. I honestly think atleast for launch we are wasting our breath.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Masharra

[Smurf 12]

I would disagree slightly. There was a harsh penalty. That soldier was dead unable to be used in any future missions. also known as restart and plan your approach 10 times because I WILL BE DAMNED IF I LET Galanos, Kure Die and she will be my recon and assault specialist. I dont care that she is a sniper!

on topic. I honestly think atleast for launch we are wasting our breath.

haha true

Last playtrhough I made on Raven Shield was on planning only (except those recon missions, AI can't deal with them) and nobody could die in a mission, otherwise => restart.

But you get what I mean.

Could be a waste of breath but it has been said, no excuses of "nobody told me" in ze future :cool:

[ric 1]

I would disagree slightly. There was a harsh penalty. That soldier was dead unable to be used in any future missions. also known as restart and plan your approach 10 times because I WILL BE DAMNED IF I LET Galanos, Kure Die and she will be my recon and assault specialist. I dont care that she is a sniper!

on topic. I honestly think atleast for launch we are wasting our breath.

this.

[chortles 263]

What medic system do you mean in Arma 2. You mean that horrific first aid module, that damned thing ruined all the SP missions for me since its so unrealistic. I hate it and I don't want to ever see it in arma, ever. How do you guys even support that implantation of the wounding system is beyond my comprehension. But I do agree they should give the first aid kits to medics only so that they have some use, giving them to all was/is a stupid idea and I really don't know what the developers were thinking. Weapon weight and recoil will get updated before the release i reckon.

If that's how you feel about the Arma 2 module, maybe that's why pettka didn't account for it in testing OA damage vs. A3 damage? :lol:

Yes, but being on 80% health doesnt really have any downsides, so why would you bother letting a medic fix you? (other then to get rid of the injured- sounds)

This is reason enough for me to call "medic" though, it seems that unlike you I end up doing the expected behaviors anyway. :D Then again, the moment "hurt belly" happens, I'm out.

on topic. I honestly think atleast for launch we are wasting our breath.

I will laugh if this turns out to be the case.

[-ghost-tf 12]

If that's how you feel about the Arma 2 module, maybe that's why pettka didn't account for it in testing OA damage vs. A3 damage? :lol:

Denco is right, the arma 2 module is crap. BUT it is like Masharra said earlier, something "most" consider the "lowest" standard. And it is definetly much better then what we have now.

This is reason enough for me to call "medic" though, it seems that unlike you I end up doing the expected behaviors anyway. :D Then again, the moment "hurt belly" happens, I'm out.

I was questioning why someone would call for a medic, if he can patch himself up with a FAK, to the point that he can just continue playing with no negative effects other then your character moaning (which I noticed became alot less then at alpha release). That doesnt tell anything about my behaviour ingame, and your logic seems "We can spam 20 grenades like an automatic grenade launcher, but I myself keep 10 seconds interval between every grenade I throw, so devs dont need to fix that".

[chortles 263]

"Something 'most' consider the 'lowest' standard", but not pettka? It could be that a corresponding medical module may come down the line post-release, but the general sense I've gotten from dev comments does seem to indicate it was at best deemed by someone to be "not important enough to take precedence over other things in pre-release development" even if it does eventually happen.

Also, my answer to your question was as you quoted: the breathing sounds are (an annoying) reason enough for me. :rolleyes:

[Varanon 892]

"Something 'most' consider the 'lowest' standard", but not pettka?

Not wanting to be disrespectful to anyone, but expectation of customers and developers might vary. The current implementation of the system (first aid kits, self healing, no discernible effect of wounds) is below what I would expect from an Arma title. Your opinions and even the opinions of the developers may be different, but that does NOT make my opinion (or that of others) less "right".

At the VERY LEAST, wounded players should have some adverse effect, and more than the occasional moan.

Also, my answer to your question was as you quoted: the breathing sounds are (an annoying) reason enough for me. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but for 'most' people, this is not a reason to call a medic. As it is now, medics are totally useless in the game. In Arma 2 I regularly play medics. In Arma 3, I wouldn't bother because what would I do ? Make my team mates moan less ? That's all ? Give me a break.

[mmaruda 20]

I think most people here focus too much attention on words instead of facts. I play various simulators since 1993 and as far as the Arma series is concerned, except for good ballistics and a general feel of an authentic environment I can say it simulates... NOTHING. Need for Speed Underground does a better job simulating cars than Arma. Why? You can change gears. And don't even get me started on helicopters and planes. People want the Take On flight model so much, but unfortunately it's not a good helo FM and it's development has been abandoned by BIS. For anyone who has played Steel Beasts or Balkans on Fire, armor is also laughable. There is also infantry... that cannot jump, climb onto half meter platforms, or can take 3 pistol rounds to the head and still keep walking (some things I recently noticed in Arma 2). I recently found a mod for A3 that allows you to switch weapons while moving... Waaat? Isn't that in the game, seriously? It turned out, it's not. So yeah, simulator...

Arma has always been about simulating the battlefield, meaning it looks and acts authentic and real tactics work. Introducing complex simulation elements is something difficult, because it takes time and resources and you have to decide what to put in and leave out and what to simplify, because let's face it, operating a tank or helo IRL requires months of training just to get the thing moving properly not to mention fighting in it. This is a problem - supposedly they get this heli FM in, why no plane FM? Why no tank armor? Why no manual gearbox in cars or realistic radios with frequencies having to be put in manually to hear the base or FAC?

I am a bit sad that bipods are still not operational, since it just looks stupid to have them and not be able to use them. Fast-roping was also something I wanted, but if not BIS, a mod will fix it. I also agree that the healing system is just weird, since the medic is useless, but implementing a full on combat trauma simulation is ridiculous - standard first aid is too complicated for most people IRL. I could go on for hours, but case in point - anyone who thinks any previous Arma game was more realistic than this one, most probably has not played it much without ACE.

BIS are trying to deliver a finished and polished product, and I suppose, this is going to be the first time, if they pull it off. Most reviews of their previous titles pointed out lack of polish, focus, and bugs, and BIS want to address that and that is the smart thing to do. People should stop complaining, blaming everything on new players and DayZ and focus on giving proper feedback, to make this a polished product. Why? Because it's going to be less of a pain to play Arma 3 when it's finished and when mods like ACE come out. Or better yet, maybe start some sort of community mod pack project, which would focus on creating one huge mod with all the features we want?

[Varanon 892]

I think most people here focus too much attention on words instead of facts. I play various simulators since 1993 and as far as the Arma series is concerned, except for good ballistics and a general feel of an authentic environment I can say it simulates... NOTHING.

Well, we've officially moved away from "simulation" and "realism" towards "authenticity", and I guess most of us can accept that. Still, it's not authentic to not feel anything when 25 % of your blood/helth/whatever is gone, or even more.

BIS are trying to deliver a finished and polished product

And in what respect does that contradict, say, a bit more weapon shake when you are injured ?

[Phantom Six 25]

I also agree that the healing system is just weird, since the medic is useless, but implementing a full on combat trauma simulation is ridiculous - standard first aid is too complicated for most people IRL. I could go on for hours, but case in point - anyone who thinks any previous Arma game was more realistic than this one, most probably has not played it much without ACE.

Now no one is asking for a full on combat trauma simulation, but the first aid modules is actually much better than this go FAK yourself system. Say in ARMA 2, you broke your legs, you're going to need a medic or a first aid tent/medevac/ambulance etc so the medic actually has a role there. In ARMA 3, you can just go FAK yourself so medics are pretty useless. The system before was better so from the looks of it to me, it's kind of dumbed down compared to before.

Yeah, I have played ACE with ACE wounding system and stuff, its a good system where bandages are for stopping the bleeding, epinephrine to wake you back to conciousness, morphine to reduce the pain, and first aid kits to heal (mainly medics only). Of course sometimes ACE can go to a bit over complex on some of the stuff but the medical system is excellent. First aid kits in ARMA 3 should just stop the bleeding, not be an autoheal system. Even Sunken Dragon have "field dressing" where its only use to stop bleeding, but if you really want to heal up, you're going to need a medic.

Or better yet, maybe start some sort of community mod pack project, which would focus on creating one huge mod with all the features we want?

A modder's job is not to fix someone else's game, but improve upon it.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Phantom Six

[noubernou 77]

I know some people would actually enjoy a full on combat trauma simulation. We need dismemberment though for that to be worthwhile. Dismemberment is one of my pet wants haha. Arma is far too clean of a game violence wise. War is pretty much the nastiest business we humans can get up to, and Arma makes it feel clinical.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I know some people would actually enjoy a full on combat trauma simulation. We need dismemberment though for that to be worthwhile. Dismemberment is one of my pet wants haha. Arma is far too clean of a game violence wise. War is pretty much the nastiest business we humans can get up to, and Arma makes it feel clinical.

Yep, me too, but i'm afraid that is axed forever :don7:

Loved that trial by Icewindo :

Edited July 17, 2013 by ProfTournesol

[Wiki 1558]

So, I'm gonna give my point of view here (I haven't real the whole thread, so perhaps it has already been said.

2 things that SHOULD have been in ArmA 3 and are not (hopefully, the community is here):

-fastrope

-shooting from vehicles

these features already exist in ArmA 2 - thanks to the community, but still.

why not implement them in vanilla ArmA 3?

soooooooooo bad!!!

[bad benson 1733]

BIS are trying to deliver a finished and polished product, and I suppose, this is going to be the first time, if they pull it off. Most reviews of their previous titles pointed out lack of polish, focus, and bugs, and BIS want to address that and that is the smart thing to do.

you are falling for their marketing. all the "polishing" so far is highly superficial. the animations might feel smooth and my hat is off to smookie but i'm pretty sure, if he had his way, then the actual system behind the anims, the animtree, would've been cleaned up too. what we have now is basically a "reskin" of all the anims and some new ones.

real polishing would've been to clean up ridiculously broken transitions (i'm stunned by the fact that my character still does his rocketlauncher dance after all these years), a new system that divides upper and lower body to not only help the animators have an easier job but also make SIMPLE things like changing weapons on the move (and countless other things like modded melee) possible.

we are at a point were the devs excuse lack of stuff in a way that makes it look like everything is dictated by the current state of the engine. as if certain stuff has to be left untouched no matter how inpractical, outdated or simply broken it is. instead of trying to get this game out on schedule they should've focused on updating their whole system. all future products would've benefitted from that. now the problems are just postponed to a later date...again AND it offers less than the older games.

this discussion isn't about realism. if you know the engine from modding and look at the stuff in detail it becomes clear that BI is actually dumbing down the engine to be able to work with it easier (less features = less problems). the medical system is the best example. instead of using the old one which was eventhough a bit buggy still working, they just remove it entirely and replace it by something that is equal to nothing. under certain circumstances i would even get it but looking how almost every problem from the series is still there i don't see how this is justified.

i'm sure people would've prefered rich but slightly buggy gameplay over a reskinned reduced version of what they had before. and if you really think that underwater and basic physics are huge innovations than i suggest looking at some other games. it's standard for several years now....underwater is just basics since games exist.

[Polygon 11]

Arma is about getting to simulation level as close as possible. A3 has obvious limitations, but by default it should not be worse than A2 in some aspects (right now, it's different) and much better in others because it's the next iteration of a franchise - innovation is automatically required by fans / consumers.

The fact that BIS leaves users with an option of a mod for extreme realism is logical. But I'm worried as for how long the current A3 flaws will be present. I expect that this community is hard to silent, and people will keep on talking about inclusion of much-needed features. Talk about balance of gameplay... even with Task force Balance, it still needs tweaking.

A thread with a full list of A3 shortcomings and corresponding links to feedback tracker could do wonders. Who will be the next balancing hero?

[Varanon 892]

Yep, me too, but i'm afraid that is axed forever :don7:]

Dismemberment is axed sounds somewhat strange ;)

A bit more weapon shaking would already be enough, no need for a full-fledged medical simulation.

Edit: Also +1 for Bad Benson's post

Edited July 17, 2013 by Varanon

[pettka 694]

When I look back at the module for A2, it serves some aspects of SP missions, but it goes a bit off in MP - there are some quite nasty issues at least in my eyes, but I am not the one taking decisions. As it has been stated many times before, we strive to achieve well rounded experience from the start and we try to provide at least some aspects of said module as core gameplay for everyone. We made some hard decisions on what is needed and what is nice to have, that resulted by at least some effects of any injury for everyone even without said module. It is still possible that we may have enough resources to enhance the system, but that is hard to tell and I definitely won't give any promises. It has been said many times that we would like to have some better medical system :icon_twisted:

[Varanon 892]

It has been said many times that we would like to have some better medical system :icon_twisted:

Wouldn't it be possible and, well, "relatively easy" to move the current system into a module ? So that it is easy to replace by modders and mission makers that want to do some extra stuff ? Or have a module that completely negates the current medkits so we can "do our own" ?

An additional module placed in the mission would mean not current missions are affected and would thus be a relatively "safe" solution.

[zooloo75 833]

If anyone is interested in the axed feature of attaching an explosive charge on a vehicle, I spent some time recreating it about an hour ago.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2z40usk9ovsoe2c/moBBO69lIi