Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[dmarkwick 261]

But you must fall to the ground after jogging 500M (even though the Royal Marines Yomped 26 miles with no issues in the Falklands wars...)

The reasons for fatigue are well laid out in this thread (prevent overpowered backpacked units for example) and, the 26 mile yomp was a yomp not a run :)

[metalcraze 290]

It's a game, not real life.

It's a game which is also a sim. Sim is about simulating real life. So yeah not everything is ever simulated in any simulation - it's still not an excuse to demand stuff being cut out or not put in that will only make the game more believable.

[kremator 1065]

Perhaps it needs to be tweaked a little, but I like the direction BIS are taking.

[Jex 1]

The reasons for fatigue are well laid out in this thread (prevent overpowered backpacked units for example) and, the 26 mile yomp was a yomp not a run :)

Yes and this is a game and so we can make the players a little more fitter than the fittest soldiers....liiiiike..... the Royal Marine Commando's who have to travel 30 miles in 6 hours with kit over Dartmoor which is a pretty shitty place to traverse.

I don't think people want over packed bags, they just don't want reality creeping into a game too and fatigue systems suck pretty much. ACE fatigue was pretty bad and what does it add to the game anyway? If realism is what they strive for, why did they add in respawns? For every realistic thing you can say is in the game, I can probably give you 10 times the amount of unrealistic things. The point is not about realism because there's very little in the game as it is, but gasping like an old man after a 500m jog is simply not fun for anyone.

Why can't they just limit the max move speed? The more you carry, the slower you go and implement fatigue but be a lot more lenient with it?

[jw custom 56]

but gasping like an old man after a 500m jog is simply not fun for anyone.

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been fully adjusted.

Also you have the power as a mission maker to disable fatigue: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/enableFatigue

Perhaps a there will be a difficulty setting to enable/disable it, who knows.

[Jex 1]

It's a game which is also a sim. Sim is about simulating real life. So yeah not everything is ever simulated in any simulation - it's still not an excuse to demand stuff being cut out or not put in that will only make the game more believable.

Can you list what it simulates that is realistic?

Ballistics aren't because the weather isn't modelled in

vehicles aren't because the physics aren't correct. Also your not moving your hands to turn the ignition and you teleport into it after some clunky animation.

Your character isn't because he has magical healing packs and can respawn. He can't even change his stance fluidly and gets stuck in weird animations and doesn't have control over his body.

The inventory system isn't because you never take off you backpack and throw it on the ground then open it and use the mouse to move your hands to get things out, same for your combat webbing.

Should I continue?

Panting like an old smoker after 500m is not believable and neither is it fun. Carrying unlimited gear is stupid but in a game I expect to be able to move quicker, run longer, carry more and shoot better than a rl counterpart because it's a game. I don't want ridiculous levels of these, just a slightly tweaked version and my posts showing what the Royal Marines and Royal Marine Commandos can do shows what the human body can do which i think a lot of people here think it can't.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:50 ----------

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been fully adjusted.

Also you have the power as a mission maker to disable fatigue: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/enableFatigue

Perhaps a there will be a difficulty setting to enable/disable it, who knows.

I'm not against fatigue, just bad fatigue where it interrupts your game play (for instance ACE went too far I think, collapsing and having to wait 10 minutes does what exactly to enhance the game play?)

I'd rather not disable it, I'd like it to work good and I think the more you carry, the slower you should go - why isn't this modeled in? I can run as fast as a naked me when I'm carrying an M246, a Rocket launcher and 3 rockets plus 5 belts of ammo and webbing, etc? Bullshit!

Why isn't anyone arguing for different movement speeds? or are they? ;)

[jw custom 56]

I agree that ACE fatigue was too much, but bis fatigue is not even near that point and as i said it's not adjusted yet(we are still in alpha).

Personally i don't care if you are punished on how far you can run or how fast you can run as long as it's adjusted properly so you benefit from going light.

[metalcraze 290]

Ballistics aren't because the weather isn't modelled in

vehicles aren't because the physics aren't correct. Also your not moving your hands to turn the ignition and you teleport into it after some clunky animation.

Your character isn't because he has magical healing packs and can respawn. He can't even change his stance fluidly and gets stuck in weird animations and doesn't have control over his body.

The inventory system isn't because you never take off you backpack and throw it on the ground then open it and use the mouse to move your hands to get things out, same for your combat webbing.

Should I continue?

Yep. May as well nitpick DCS A10C like that. Why does only A10 that you and other humans control have realistic physics while every single vehicle in the game is very arcade-ish and AI abides by a lot more simplified physics? Clearly it's not a simulation.

When I crash a car into something in GTR2 it doesn't deform in a realistic way - who cares if it has the most detailed car tweaking among all other games? Not a simulation either!

In Steel Beasts I can't press every single button in tank's cockpit and all seats appear empty despite crew doing their job there - not a simulation!

Your logic is really funny and sounds like "it's not a sim because there's no windage at the moment but if you will put it in I will complain a lot"

for instance ACE went too far I think, collapsing and having to wait 10 minutes does what exactly to enhance the game play?

10 minutes? Trying too hard. And you will collapse only if you will try to carry M107 and Javelin at the same time which means ACE is doing a pretty damn good job at stopping you doing things like that.

I guess this is the part where you will explain to me that IRL SuperElite Tier 1 Royal Marines sprint around with a pack of guns on their back and a full backpack of satchel charges and nothing happens to them?

So please don't be a hypocrite here. First you complain about realism in a simulator and then you post stuff like "zomg but in reality Elite Tier 1 Royal Marines...." in the very same post.

Edited May 22, 2013 by metalcraze

[bad benson 1733]

i think we have to differentiate between visual and audio effects and the actual effects on gameplay. you will only have really noticeable effects on your movement if you sprint non stop or are overloaded with a lot of gear, blur and breathing sounds aside.

while i agree that different movement speeds would be nice i have to point out that the fact that a fully loaded soldier is faster fatigued than a light soldier after running the same distance at the same speed is what makes the current system perfectly "realistic" . only the fact that you can't run slower can be called unrealistic. so if you think about it, just the fact that the game forces you to run as fast as everyone else causes you to get more fatigued. so even if jogging isn't something that quickly causes exhaustion in real life you will certainly be more and faster fatigued than a guy with less gear if you keep up with his speed.

Why isn't anyone arguing for different movement speeds? or are they?

we had an interesting discussion going before this drifted off into realism ideology discussions again. your argumentation is weak if you have to use respawn as an example. it's the same as people using cleaning your boots as an example. i agree the system might need some tweaking but pushing the weak examples too far doesn't really help the discussion.

realism =/= reality. it's about the illusion of reality. dismissing the whole concept because you don't like the alpha stage of a feature is kinda silly. i 100% agree that it's not perfect yet though.

[Cyper 18]

The most important thing is that it becomes as realistic as possible.

So not like ARMA 2 with other words.

[chortles 263]

while i agree that different movement speeds would be nice i have to point out that the fact that a fully loaded soldier is faster fatigued than a light soldier after running the same distance at the same speed is what makes the current system perfectly "realistic" . only the fact that you can't run slower can be called unrealistic. so if you think about it, just the fact that the game forces you to run as fast as everyone else causes you to get more fatigued. so even if jogging isn't something that quickly causes exhaustion in real life you will certainly be more and faster fatigued than a guy with less gear if you keep up with his speed.

Are there signs that "different levels of fitness" were implemented or is every soldier essentially identical in that respect? Back when I used Rye's little script to check movement speeds I found that unit class and loadout didn't matter as far as the speeds themselves, so I'm wondering how far that goes or whether the unit classes, just like the "weapon-and-accessory-combo-classnames", are just "premade loadouts".

It seems that the current system has the fully loaded soldier fatigue more/faster at the same distance and speed because the fully loaded soldier "would be" putting more effort to achieve the same speed, the current system simply allows the fully loaded soldier to do so at the cost of duration, and some people think that that shouldn't be possible.

[Darklynx 10]

I agree, im pretty sure I could run for more than a minute with full tack gear on without making my vision go blurry

[Jex 1]

10 minutes? Trying too hard. And you will collapse only if you will try to carry M107 and Javelin at the same time which means ACE is doing a pretty damn good job at stopping you doing things like that.

I guess this is the part where you will explain to me that IRL SuperElite Tier 1 Royal Marines sprint around with a pack of guns on their back and a full backpack of satchel charges and nothing happens to them?

So please don't be a hypocrite here. First you complain about realism in a simulator and then you post stuff like "zomg but in reality Elite Tier 1 Royal Marines...." in the very same post.

I think you didn't read my responses correctly.

Firstly the blacking out was carrying a SA80 and 9 mags, 3 smoke grenades,that was it.

Secondly I posted what the human body could do in reality, since many people here think that we all collapse after walking a few feet thinking this somehow adds to gameplay. I then made the point that your in game characters should be better than they are in rl and should be able to do more than their rl counterparts since this is a game and we want that little extra freedom.

Somehow this makes me a hypocrite?

[metalcraze 290]

Firstly the blacking out was carrying a SA80 and 9 mags, 3 smoke grenades,that was it.

Were you sprinting for a km then?

Because even a year ago I could easily jog around with ~20 kgs loads without blackouts. And there was no update to this since.

[SavageCDN 231]

I'm usually around 30kg in ACE and rarely experience any blackouts even after a km of running. If you are passing out with a rifle, mags, and smoke there is some other issue (are you running uphill? do you run with your weapon 'up'? are you under fire?)

I do find though that once you have reached that 'passing out' stage, it is difficult to 'return to normal' within any short time frame... it's like the effects of almost passing out have made you temporarily weak...

[Jex 1]

Were you sprinting for a km then?

Because even a year ago I could easily jog around with ~20 kgs loads without blackouts. And there was no update to this since.

No I was not sprinting, I never use the sprint mechanism, everyone else had the issue. I don't care if it was twice as forgiving, blacking out is utter BS and should never be in a game.

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

I'm usually around 30kg in ACE and rarely experience any blackouts even after a km of running. If you are passing out with a rifle, mags, and smoke there is some other issue (are you running uphill? do you run with your weapon 'up'? are you under fire?)

I do find though that once you have reached that 'passing out' stage, it is difficult to 'return to normal' within any short time frame... it's like the effects of almost passing out have made you temporarily weak...

Most likely yes, it was a long time ago. Even so, going up a hill should not make you pass out, Most of it was actually running for about 2km on flat land, it was a custom map with a big river going through it. So flat land and we were all crippled and as you pointed out, there was that feeling that u could never recover quite enough. It doesn't really matter, ACE over did it. Waiting around for 10 minutes is boring.

[jw custom 56]

This is about the BIS fatigue implementation so let's just focus on that.

[Sangerous 10]

DoF/motion blur are the things that many people want to separate from Post-Processing, including me. That's why many don't use or use low PP.

This. Motion blur is the main reason I don't have post-processing on.

[mobile_medic 43]

I embrace the fatigue system.

That said, I hate the blurry screen, and fatigue still seems to set it way to fast. 30 seconds to a minute of jogging (not sprinting) on undulating terrain with a light load out and he acts like he's is dying :) These guys are soldiers, not cig smoking couch potatoes. Jogging a mile seems unlikely without mega-blur and heavy breathing, even though they (realistically), with a moderate load out, should be able to go at least a mile or 2 without acting like they are going to collapse. Seems like a km jog before needing to slow down and catch your wind is more in the realm of the real world. And, even at that (unless you are carrying a heavy loadout) should be a relatively short down time. Slow to normal pace for a minute or two, then pick your jog back up. Their "sprint" should be able to be maintained for around 400 yards or so. It's like runnning a quarter, which they should be able to do in 60-70 seconds in full gear. But, should require a longer downtime than the 1-2km jog I just mentioned.

my 2 cents.

[metalcraze 290]

No I was not sprinting, I never use the sprint mechanism, everyone else had the issue. I don't care if it was twice as forgiving, blacking out is utter BS and should never be in a game.

Why not? Why shouldn't there be a penalty for not using a transport to travel over quite long distances?

See it's not just me telling you that ACE system is forgiving.

To me it sounds like you just don't want to have your wrong choices/calls penalized at all.

[dmarkwick 261]

Why not?

Well, if I might make a suggestion... :) because it's a game. In a game, we should, if we wish to implement fatigue, make it possible for you to make the situation better (by unloading, moving slower etc) but we shouldn't, as gamers, be in a situation where we're looking at a blank screen waiting to wake up again. That's just dumb IMO.

[Jex 1]

Why not? Why shouldn't there be a penalty for not using a transport to travel over quite long distances?

See it's not just me telling you that ACE system is forgiving.

To me it sounds like you just don't want to have your wrong choices/calls penalized at all.

Well in this instance the mission maker didn't put any vehicles in for us to use and where did I say there shouldn't be penalties? There are, it's called heavy breathing and a worse aim which is more than enough.

Blacking out does what exactly other than make the game last 10 minutes more but gives you nothing back? Oooh look at the fun I'm having waiting here to recover

lol really?

[Smurf 12]

Blacking out shouldn't be in-game no matter what.

[Jex 1]

Well, if I might make a suggestion... :) because it's a game. In a game, we should, if we wish to implement fatigue, make it possible for you to make the situation better (by unloading, moving slower etc) but we shouldn't, as gamers, be in a situation where we're looking at a blank screen waiting to wake up again. That's just dumb IMO.

Not only is it dumb it offers nothing to the experience than adding more time onto the mission, etc. So you look at a black screen for some minutes, get up and keep walking - nothing else happens in this time so what was the point of having it? Nobody here can offer a reasonable argument for harsh unforgiving fatigue systems like this and what it adds to the experience or gameplay. It's basically the same as your SL making you sit down for 5 minutes doing nothing - "ok guys let's have some fun and sit here for 5 minutes doing absolutely nothing!"

Brilliant - love this exciting gameplay.

[cotton 1]

the beauty of this game, is that you can configure your missions how you like... i am sure a mod can turn off the fatigue systems if you wish. by default it should be on however.