[Video comparison] Bullet impacts on human targets

[Tulx 10]

Hello everyone!

I wanted to hear more opinions on what from my point of view is a distinct lack of visible bullet impacts on human targets in ArmA III alpha. Currently, it seems that ArmA doesn't simulate the kinetic energy of the shot being carried over to the target/soldier upon impact. Soldiers seem like paper targets with the bullets passing right through them without any resistance, if the soldier survives the hit. Only a deadly hit triggers the ragdoll effect. And even then, the soldiers just slump together as if lost consciousness and aren't pushed in the direction of the bullet. (They do retain the momentum if hit while running and fall forward, but bullet impacts never influence their falling direction)

To better illustrate this, I have put together a short video with three examples - ArmA III alpha, where the kinetic bullet impact is missing, Crysis 2 (of all things), which seems to simulate this very well, and a piece of real life footage of a lucky soldier being hit by what is likely a 7,62mm bullet and surviving uninjured.

Is this something that would justify a feedback tracker entry? What do you think?

[frag 0]

I agree that a little could be done on this. The ragdoll effect is really good, but I tend to think that the bullet should give some kind of push to the target before the ragdoll activate (if the target is killed). But I do understand that it is probably not easy to mix animations and shockwave of a bullet.

This being said, yes I would like this.

[CruiseMissile 10]

I agree that a little could be done on this. The ragdoll effect is really good, but I tend to think that the bullet should give some kind of push to the target before the ragdoll activate (if the target is killed). But I do understand that it is probably not easy to mix animations and shockwave of a bullet.

This being said, yes I would like this.

The only reason in that real video the guy got "hit" like that is because his body armor took the shot, I've read up on the story and it's supposedly an SVD 7.62x54Rmm that shot him.

In this game the vast majority of bullets are either 6.5mm or 9mm, both of which don't really have any kind of "knock down" power, the bullets fly so fast that they'll penetrate you completely before you even realize you've been shot.

[scrim 1]

Once they shape up the body armour and helmets, which they really should (seriously, both work like they're from the 80's, not today, and even less from 2035), I suppose it might be worth taking a look at it, but it's not really anything big IRL.

[Hartmann 10]

Do bullets actually have the force to noticeably 'push' a body?

Or is this just about looking cool.

[Blaf 1]

Do bullets actually have the force to noticeably 'push' a body?

Or is this just about looking cool.

Some do, some dont. Depends on calibre, bullet type, distance of shot, if taget wears protection (and which) etc.

I have never been shot, but from what i have seen and heard i found out most small arm and carbine ammo dont have such "knockback" effect.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Blaf
grammar

[zatoichi 10]

I've noticed a significant flinch upon impact for a non-lethal round, often in the Alpha. I'd rather see them get knocked down/weapon knocked out of hands for a non-lethal strike.

In real life fatal hits more often than not just drop the target like a sack of potatoes.

[maturin 12]

No small arms hit with any more force than a baseball pitch. If you thrash backwards or fall down, it's entirely a psychological response, not the result of momentum.

That said, a jolt would be nice.

[froggyluv 2136]

That said, a jolt would be nice.

It kinda has that now - or more like a twitch really. Still better than statue-man from Arma 2...

[ProfTournesol 956]

It kinda has that now - or more like a twitch really. Still better than statue-man from Arma 2...

Indeed.

[mmaruda 20]

Do bullets actually have the force to noticeably 'push' a body?

Or is this just about looking cool.

They don't, check Newton's laws. The so called Hollywood Knockback, where a guy flies for 2 meters after being shot is pure fiction. If it was so, the shooter would also have been kicked back with the same force and that is not happening. Sure, some high calibre weapons have a significant recoil but it's not enough to make you fly through the air and not enough to make the target fly. The whole idea stopping power is that a high calibre round simply has enough force to kill you in one shot or wound you in a way that you are no longer able to do anything. Body armour is a slight game changer in the matter because it spread the bullets energy over a wide area, so instead of piercing your body the bullets force is applied over a wider area and you fall down, but not really get knocked back much.

[PFC Magician 10]

PhysX is a new improvement in arma3 think they still need to develop it, i have hope that they will!

The whole idea stopping power is that a high calibre round simply has enough force to kill you in one shot or wound you in a way that you are no longer able to do anything. Body armour is a slight game changer in the matter because it spread the bullets energy over a wide area, so instead of piercing your body the bullets force is applied over a wider area and you fall down, but not really get knocked back much.

Arma 3 alpha dnot include all formula just gravity vector, missing two variables target vector? and bullet vector?

Edited March 27, 2013 by PFC Magician

[dmarkwick 261]

Bullets don't impart their velocity to their target. They just go through. When shot, a person will just collapse straight down like a sack of laundry. Very occasionally, a bullet will perform some strange trajectory due to hitting bone, but the velocities imparted don't take their vector from the bullet. It's more or less random, you're as likely to twitch forward as backward.

[max power 21]

In this particular video, it's important to note that this person was saved by his armour, or so the story behind the video goes.

[zatoichi 10]

This is the current flinch I was referring to. Looks kind of robotic at the moment.

http://i.minus.com/ibyKg2NnYGD2kd.gif (743 kB)

[-=Grunt=- 10]

That bullet still must have hurt like heck and caused him to collapse/fall... We kinda got statue men in ArmA 3 at the moment... (Not as bad as ArmA 2)

I'd really like an animation like that when the plate carrier stops a bullet. (Or even a ragdolley animation when hit but not dead, kind of like when ramming an enemy with a car at the moment)

EDIT: By "a bullet" I mean, rifle caliber ones.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

The kind of details that add nothing to a game ...

[r3volution 0]

I do think it would be kind of cool if a non-fatal hit to body armour could trigger a chance of a ragdoll collapse without the victim dying. That guy in the video who survived did seem to lose his footing when hit. I'm not for a second endorsing some kind of flying backwards hollywood BS, but it would be cool if a hit could make someone collapse then just get back up again, if just to simulate a bit of that 'oh FUCK... wait... I'm ok' type thing. :)

And the same should DEFINITELY apply to any serious wounding shot also obviously. The whole 'get hit in the leg and don't even fall down' thing is a bit odd.

[BobcatBob 10]

I think OGR had great hit-reactions, making you reel and recover everytime a round smacked into you.

[dnk 13]

In the video, the Cry response is overblown and the A3 response looks almost just like in the real life clip.

[machineabuse 11]

Typically people react to getting hit by bullets (Suprise/pain/removal of support structure ie bone/incapacitation); small arm bullets themselves generally do not displace human beings. Those that might have the energy to do so will pass through the tissues of the human body before they get a chance.

[comc 1]

Do bullets actually have the force to noticeably 'push' a body?

Or is this just about looking cool.

Consider a 7.62x51mm NATO round. It has a mass of 25.47g and would have a muzzle velocity of 838m/s. Assuming that one was shot at point blank (i.e. escape velocity is impact velocity), its momentum would be m*v, or 21.3 N*s.

In a perfectly inelastic collision (the bullet transfers all of this momentum into its target by becoming lodged and not passing through), it would cause the target to have this same momentum, which is now equal to the mass of the bullet and target times the final velocity of both. In this case, that final velocity is .356m/s. This means that if the soldier was hit by a horizontally travelling on a frictionless surface at his center of mass, he would be now moving at that speed. However, shots rarely hit dead on, and this round fired at point-blank range would surely go through the target (farther distances would mean the type of momentum-conserving collision calculated but at slower bullet velocities), so this is far above the actual velocity you'd expect to encounter. It's enough for a twitch, but not for being knocked back.

However, I would like to add that a sort of flinching animation would be good.

Edited March 28, 2013 by comc

[max power 21]

Part of the arma design up until this point is the fAIr system where everything the AI can do, the player can do, and visa versa. If you had the AI falling down when you shot them, if BI is still using the fAIr design philosophy, then bullets would also have to cause the player to skip around and fall over too.

[Yairweinberg 1]

On a little side note I have to ask... It seems like ArmA is often compared with Crysis (At least from what I've seen so far) and I got to ask... Why?

I mean I understand the comparison to battlefield and maybe even to CoD (No competition) but Crysis is far from ArmA as it gets

[nodunit 397]

The open nature of both games draws more similarities than BF3 or COD. When it comes to comparing video games at first glance people will compare visuals, not functionality.

This is why we see the occasional "Arma should be on cry engine!" thread, they think the game could look prettier without thinking about how it would function differently.

Edited March 28, 2013 by NodUnit