Taking the scroll menu to the chopping block

[fraczek 4]

Well I can't be bothered to look up my old, rather longwinded post on UI design, so just a quick reiteration.

Some basic rules of good user interface design:

Never have same control perform widely different actions.

Never change the way controls are spatialy ordered.

If BIS learned at least that, we wouldn't have "Open door/Touch Off Explosives" hiccups. We wouldn't have the frantic scrolling to enter the hovering CASEVAC heli while under fire to only stand there dumbly while your character changes weapons. Our carefuly placed in cover AT AI subordinates wouldn't rush running towards an all-guns-blazing T72 because the "all to intelligent context sensitive" cursor changed from Attack that... to Move to... when our mouse went one pixel off.

We should have had donated some basic UI design books to BIS very very long ago...

At least a simple suggestion, reiterated all too many times, uselessly so far:

Do not share World Interaction with Playable Character Interaction. No more scroll wheel options for things you point at mixed with detonate satchels and change weapon. Simply adopt ACE-like system of separate Self interaction and separate World interaction. The Space key could be used for World - it's already ingame, context sensitive so it would do all from opening doors to accessing gear crates to getting into vehicles. If there were more options for a given object, like vehicle positions, a simple pop-up menu would do. And the key would do nothing else than that. Generations of gamers are used to one key for picking up objects and opening doors from simpler shooters, why not here?

Really, other than it re-arranging it self and switching what "Use" does unexpectedly I really don't have any complaints with the scroll menu.

Nothing against scroll menus myself, especially for complex games, if only they followed basic UI rules for such menus. But you state exactly the two rules that are broken, and broken since OFP, IIRC <g>.

Edited June 29, 2013 by fraczek

[twistking 204]

As I understand twistking’s solution involves two scrolling menus hah… that’s just awkward.

Nooooooo! You missunderstood. Well, yes - technically two menus. But ideally the context-action menu would only hold one entry at a time. So space would become a "action" or "use" key. Only if there were more than one logical action there would be possibility to scroll.

In 90% of situation you would just double-tab space for action.

I will edit the ticket and make it more clear.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10726

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

fracek, i quoted you in my ticket. (see above) hope that is ok with you. it sums up the idea behind the ticket very well!

Edited June 29, 2013 by twistking

[Wolfstriked 11]

I actually love that the explosive specialist has the touch off bombs as first option.Makes player feel a bit of tension and afterall they are very dangerous and you need to be careful.

[functional 10]

That being said I don't see how a radial menu if much different than the scroll menu.

While I personally wouldn't use either of the systems (except that current implementation is blocking me from using 1,2,3-0 assingments as well as F1-F12 assignments), radial menu would still be better if I'd have to choose and wouldn't have controllers to deal with them. Current system is simply not ideal - scrolling and pressing keys is bit different than moving mouse & click. The latter is a lot faster, which is fundamentally important.

That being said - it's lot easier to macro the current implementation, whereas with radial menu you would have to configure it so that it moves your mouse (and unfortunately, not all software supports this feature, as most games don't have any practical application for this).

Honestly, I'm all against myself for the current implementation. I'm biased somewhat as I prefer vo-ip over this anyway, but if I was to be a commander, I'd sort out a controlling scheme which allows me to do it effectively, without using that menu.

[Reuben5150 2]

The commo rose is far better than a side scrolling menu, far better.

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

The problem with translating the current design to a comma rose is that the rose isn't really context sensitive like the current Arma scroll menu is. The list dynamically changes based on what you're near and doing. I don't see how that would work with a rose.

[twistking 204]

please always specify if you are talking about the action menu or the command menu, or things get mixed up!

[Reuben5150 2]

The problem with translating the current design to a comma rose is that the rose isn't really context sensitive like the current Arma scroll menu is. The list dynamically changes based on what you're near and doing. I don't see how that would work with a rose.

Thats exactly how my idea of a rose would work in arma and I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Also on another note, it's much easier and faster to identify an Icon than to read a label, so I was happy to see the new onscreen Icons in A3, but I think this could be taken further.

Non of this has anything to do with dumbing down the game or to do with consoles really, BIS said they wanted A3 to be more accessible and this is a big part of how that will happen, if it's done right.

[twistking 204]

please also have a look at this suggestion about the action menu:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10726

it is a long text, but worth reading hopefully!

and concerning the common rose:

that might work for command menu, but for action menu it is at least difficult, because the way arma works, there could be hundreds of actions available in the menu.

therefor i suggest splitting contextual actions and abstract actions. please see the link provided and give feedback:)

Edited June 30, 2013 by twistking

[fraczek 4]

The problem with translating the current design to a comma rose is that the rose isn't really context sensitive like the current Arma scroll menu is. The list dynamically changes based on what you're near and doing. I don't see how that would work with a rose.

That's the exact thing why the current 10 year old implementation is plainly bad User Interface design, ain't it? Mixing fixed and context sensitive commands in one place is always a bad idea. Not for a rose or anything myself, just pointing out (again) the obvious flaws in current system.

[twistking 204]

Mixing fixed and context sensitive commands in one place is always a bad idea.

Amen!

What do you think of the ticket i made. (See post above.) I'm really interested in your feedback!

Edited June 30, 2013 by twistking

[roshnak 41]

I actually love that the explosive specialist has the touch off bombs as first option.Makes player feel a bit of tension and afterall they are very dangerous and you need to be careful.

Be careful that you don't accidentally detonate explosives instead of opening the door to your car?

[chortles 263]

Be careful that you don't accidentally detonate explosives instead of opening the door to your car?

Therein lies the problem with the implementation and why there's a Feedback Tracker to move the 'touch off' down.

[qbert 10]

The scroll menu definitely needs some love. Something like the Take on Helicopters "floating points" that you'd see in the vehicle/outside would be cool. For example, you could still use middle click/spacebar, but you would look at the door handle for a door, and in the vehicle you'd look down at the ignition and hit space. The delay to look at these things would be somewhat close to reality, considering to start the engine in a vehicle IRL you still have to make a motion for the wheel, to open a door IRL you still need to reach for the handle. There is still things that are more advanced that would have to be tweaked though, I can't see a major change to the scroll menu being easy for the devs.

[Kemeros 1]

Yeah i failed the night showcase and vehicle showcase because i used the touch off because the menu reordered itself as i was going to press space. BOOM! Not fun.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Be careful that you don't accidentally detonate explosives instead of opening the door to your car?

Just have to be careful when playing as an explosives specialist.But I can understand why people want it fixed.

[chortles 263]

The problem is that it supersedes choices in a way that presumably wouldn't be the case for an EOD specialist -- for example, reaching for a sidearm instead of the clacker.

[Sneakson 1]

Nooooooo! You missunderstood. Well, yes - technically two menus. But ideally the context-action menu would only hold one entry at a time. So space would become a "action" or "use" key. Only if there were more than one logical action there would be possibility to scroll.

In 90% of situation you would just double-tab space for action.

I will edit the ticket and make it more clear.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10726

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

fracek, i quoted you in my ticket. (see above) hope that is ok with you. it sums up the idea behind the ticket very well!

Alright. Space to enter vehicle... directly scroll, space to maybe enter the backdoor even though you're looking at the front door... press and scroll the mouse wheel to reload mags and all that?

Something along those lines sounds much better.

Also pressing only space should only ever interact with the things you're looking directly at. That way there’s no entering the backdoor even though you’re looking at the front door but standing 10 centimeters too far away from it to interact with it though you are in range on the backdoor.

Having space directly interact with things you’re looking right at, scroll plus space interact with things around you and pressing then scrolling the mouse wheel and pressing it again to do things like changing magazines would be alright I guess.

It sounds pretty advanced though…

I’d rather just have to work the way it does now with everything in one menu where all interactions are easily visible and implement the changes that pressing space without any scrolling should only interact with things you’re directly looking at and things greying out when they become unavailable in the scroll menu instead of disappearing.

Because the actual issues we’re having right now is that sometimes when we try to do interactions like in other games it sometimes ends up doing something else and when we’re doing complex actions sometimes we end up doing the wrong one. I don’t see a need to do anything but change those two things and nothing more right now.

Especially space becoming a standard action button is the most important change we really need.

I like having everything available the moment I start scrolling and just having to scroll then press instead of pressing, scrolling and pressing to do some actions and having the actions split into two menus doesn’t sound perfectly intuitive either.

I think I may start two separate tickets for space becoming an action button and for options greying out and still being selectable but being unclickable instead of disappearing and moving your selection somewhere else in the menu whatever it is called. That way we can get those two issues remedied without changing the system entirely which everyone may not want actually.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10815

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10816

Sorry if there are any similar tickets. Searched some any didn't see any anyways.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Sneakson

[Brisse 78]

Being a soldier in real life is even more clumsy than scrolling through a list and pressing a button. I say we keep the interaction system as it's always been. If anything, it is a realistic thing that it takes time to chose an interaction option. Ejecting from a car going 100km/h does not take 1millisecond in real life.

[HorbeySpector 164]

^thats true, but IRL you won't end up ejecting from a chopper while you were trying to put the auto-hover on. This does happen with the scrollmenu.

[Brisse 78]

^thats true, but IRL you won't end up ejecting from a chopper while you were trying to put the auto-hover on. This does happen with the scrollmenu.

Well, I have never had that problem. I always map that function to one of my HOTAS buttons. Just like real life :)

I never touch keyboard and/or mouse when flying.

I can see it might bother those without HOTAS though.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

Being a soldier in real life is even more clumsy than scrolling through a list and pressing a button. I say we keep the interaction system as it's always been. If anything, it is a realistic thing that it takes time to chose an interaction option. Ejecting from a car going 100km/h does not take 1millisecond in real life.

making the choice to do something, then performing the action are two very different things. that is where the problem arises. the current action menu is too clumsy and gets you kill more often than it helps you.

at the very least they should remove the function where the menu opens when the scroll wheel is touched (in some cases just looked at). have a dedicated [open menu] key that needs to be held down while selecting an action. and closes when the key is released. the action can be selected by pressing the middle mouse button or hitting Enter. when the [open menu] key is released during action selection, it should just cancel any action and close. far too many players and helicopters have been blown up due to the current menu system... it's just not good PERIOD.

[dmarkwick 261]

Being a soldier in real life is even more clumsy than scrolling through a list and pressing a button. I say we keep the interaction system as it's always been. If anything, it is a realistic thing that it takes time to chose an interaction option. Ejecting from a car going 100km/h does not take 1millisecond in real life.

But also, a soldier is unlikely to accidentally decide to eject from a car going 100km/h :)

The radial menu idea is a good one - because there is no reason to make it one or the other, both methods can happily co-exist with players using the one they like the most. Example: I have no use for the Alt key currently (I have a TrackIR) so I could bind that to a radial menu hotkey.

Also - there's no reason it has to be a radial/rose. It could easily be a static list that does not change when something wanders in front of your view. Select with mouse - it reveals a sub-list where appropriate, or executes the last command selected.

Edited June 30, 2013 by DMarkwick

[Brisse 78]

But also, a soldier is unlikely to accidentally decide to eject from a car going 100km/h :)

It's hard to argue against that. Just the other day, I was going to blow up a radio tower with a satchel on a multiplayer server. Before blowing it up I was going to mount a Marshall and get out of there, but insted by accident I hit the "touch off" and lots of players including myself was killed in the accident.

Accidents happen in real life to but this happened way to easily.

[fraczek 4]

Exactly. Having the scroll wheel perform too many different functions depending on prior state is bad. Now it can either command AI squadmates, interact with world, interact with yourself, interact with vehicle, etc. And you have to make sure in which state it is before confirming the action.

Sure I can (and do) use a keymap to things like eject. It's already ingame, btw (doubletap V). But why is it on the scrollmenu itself, right next to all the other actions? Just imagine writing a long article, and having a Close document dialog pop up, where pressing Enter would either save it or discard it, just depending if you moved your mouse one pixel. Or even more horrid examples from Win or OS X (yep even the design gurus made some grave mistakes, infamous "drag to trash to eject disk, newly with sparkly dock magnification on" comes first to mind).

Dynamo and Twistking made some very good points as well.

ACE (see Arma2 ACE mod) has some nice interface for interaction as well (you could set it up so SelfInteraction was a holdable key that would cancel /well sometimes not though it might have been bug/ if you let it go). But it suffers from another bad design - it changes the paradigm used. From FPS paradigm "where I point my mouse my avatar looks" to "point and click menu". That we can get away in Inventory dialog, where it is expected, but not in other dialogs where you just need to select from few options. The transition from one to another was too abrupt.

When/If I have time, I might put together a proof-of-concept mockup video, but before that just a very rough mockup open for improvements or critiuque (some already taken from others here).

Few keywords: LOGIC. CONSISTENCY. MUSCLE MEMORY.

*** mouse scroll wheel (MSW) selects from options. Make sure the options presented are not contradictory/unrelated (Autohover/Eject?). Press MSW to execute. DO NOT EVER MAKE THE SCROLL WHEEL SCROLL OVER TO TOP WHEN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. Worst mistake you can ever make. DO NOT EVER CHANGE THE ORDER OF LIST. Another big mistake.

*** One key for interacting with world (e.g. SPACE). Pressing once executes indicated action. Holding shows short menu scrollable by MSW if more options. Releasing after hold cancels. Does not interfere with normal mouse/WASD movement (unlike ACE), simply when some distance off the object it autocancels. No other way of interacting with the world. (apart from I for Inventory showing contents of nearby objects).

ie: If looking at door, just press space to open door. If looking at vehicle, just press space to enter the vehicle (from top to bottom, ie commander to gunner to passenger, MP issues aside). If looking at wounded comrade if medic, heal him. If looking at vehicle hold space to either get in specific seat, repair it, or whatever). Not having bazillion different ways of opening a door (currently: middle mouse button click, space, selecting from scroll menu and click/enter)

Not bazillion different ways to reload a weapon. Not having the space perform widely different contectual actions just because we can.

Holding space inside of vehicle: display vehicle specific menu - reload SABOT/HE rounds, change seat, lower/raise gear, turn in/out, get out (only if on ground and moving slowly).

Keep Eject to a keypress only. When you ever need it, you better bash the key (doubletap V? I use LWin+E personaly, but that's just a preference). It is a definite and different action, one that changes the current game state, that needs to be separate from all others.

*** Another (and only ONE) way to do Self Interaction tasks. Healing, changing to rangefinder, perhaps the explosives here (with confirmation?).

Changing weapons could be done the ACE way too - modifier plus key (shift-1 rifle, shift-2 launcher, shift-3 UGL if present, modifier user configurable). It is something you do intuitively and quickly in RL. Infinitely cycling F key that takes different number of presses to get to UGL depending on how many firemodes your weapon has is not intuitive.

Feel free to critique, add, remove or reorder. As ever my post is a quick mashup of ideas, some already written here, some in older threads. One problem might be modifier keys use - I don't know how many keypresses does the game/OS register at once and since SPACE is probably not a META key, it might pose problems registering it when you are i.e. holding shift+d+e to slowly walk around a corner peeking around it.

Regarding compass rose or completely different system - I personaly dislike it because it changes the paradigm of mouse controlling your avatar directly. I feel scroll wheel is the best compromise for that, since you can still look and move around. It just needs to be more consistent and not mix different paradigms as well.