ARMA III & Steam WORKSHOP

[mr_centipede 31]

From what I gather here, the problem is when for example:

Rock made an excellent Eurofighter typhoon, I like it and without Rock consent, I sent it to steamworks to 'share' his excellent work. Here's the problem, the uploader (me) is not the creator and now Steam/Valve has legal rights for Rock's Eurofighter... Rock found about it, and want Steam to take it off of steamworks, (I guess this is the problem, time consuming etc etc).

I guess some people may not recognize this as a problem because maybe they're not a modder themselves. But the end result is, the community have a new toy to play with for a short while and the creator lost his motivation and chose not to share his works anymore. I think that's a lost to the community as a whole

I may simplified it a bit here, but I think that's the gist of it. If was mistaken somewhere, then I apologize.

[LordJarhead 1721]

From what I gather here, the problem is when for example:

Rock made an excellent Eurofighter typhoon, I like it and without Rock consent, I sent it to steamworks to 'share' his excellent work. Here's the problem, the uploader (me) is not the creator and now Steam/Valve has legal rights for Rock's Eurofighter... Rock found about it, and want Steam to take it off of steamworks, (I guess this is the problem, time consuming etc etc).

I guess some people may not recognize this as a problem because maybe they're not a modder themselves. But the end result is, the community have a new toy to play with for a short while and the creator lost his motivation and chose not to share his works anymore. I think that's a lost to the community as a whole

I may simplified it a bit here, but I think that's the gist of it. If was mistaken somewhere, then I apologize.

You are right! That is the point! More our less I think that the steam workshop wont be used by a lot of the old fashion modder around, which are the ones providing the best mods as well. And as soon as this is going to start and the first mods will be uploaded there without the real creators agreement, we will see what will happening. Either Bohmeia WILL change the license agreement 2.a for our community, or ArmA3 it self, or we will see a lot of modder to jump of the train and this community will either turn into some kind of new territory for new modder who upload their work to the workshop anyways or it will die out bone dry here and ruin BIS.

Who knows now?!?! We would have to find out when we get to the point. I for myself wont upload any work to the workshop. Not because I would hate steam or the workshop, I dont, how could I? But I dont like it either and will keep the old fashion ways stay alive like Armaholic, also I will have an JSRS Studio homepage so I dont need the Workshop to share anything I would like to share.

However I think those discussions are kinda rip the community into pieces slowly. So we will need to wait it out. And as Dwarden told me today:

[09:59:51] David Foltyn: ye that's the plan that we will moderate it

[10:00:30] David Foltyn: and if there is time i will (or someone on team) go over the 2.a section of theirs workshop eula if it's possible to lessen it for our modders (but no warranty on this)

I sincerely hope they will change the eula, but seriously, I'm afraid Valve would give a shit^^

LJ

[UbiquitousUK 11]

1. it is THE problem. I own the intellectual property for all the original content i make. According to BI eula, i am just not able to use them commercially if i use BI Tools to make it (even so, the original creator still owns the IP for his work). But since i don't use Bi tools to create those, i only use BI tools to get them ingame, i still own the IP for everything i do, and i can even sell the content in their original format. I am far from being the only one in this situation.

2. i am less trouble by this to be perfectly honest. But even so, i see some possible friction going here. Skyrim is the example.

That doesn't make sense. If you don't want to give rights to Valve then no one is going to make you put your content onto steamworks. Why stope people who want to distribute their work through that channel from doing so?

Mr_Centipede

From what I gather here, the problem is when for example:

Rock made an excellent Eurofighter typhoon, I like it and without Rock consent, I sent it to steamworks to 'share' his excellent work. Here's the problem, the uploader (me) is not the creator and now Steam/Valve has legal rights for Rock's Eurofighter... Rock found about it, and want Steam to take it off of steamworks, (I guess this is the problem, time consuming etc etc).

I guess some people may not recognize this as a problem because maybe they're not a modder themselves. But the end result is, the community have a new toy to play with for a short while and the creator lost his motivation and chose not to share his works anymore. I think that's a lost to the community as a whole

I may simplified it a bit here, but I think that's the gist of it. If was mistaken somewhere, then I apologize.

This also doesn't make sense.

Firstly, steam/valve does not have legal rights to rock's works if you upload them without permission. I.P law (and property rights more generally) just doesn't work like that.

I agree that there is a practical problem insofar as it takes time to contact Valve and tell them to take content down, but I fail to see how this is specific to steam workshop. The same would be true about contacting any host regarding an I.P. violation.

[jedra 11]

Although nowhere near as prolific or as esteemed as most here, I would not upload any of my own addons to Steam Workshop. I am very happy for them to sit on the Six Network and Armaholic but would not be at all happy if they ended up on the Steam Workshop. I never plan on making any money out of the minimal output I produce, but it is a matter of principle that I will not just hand over the rights to Valve.

From a purely consumer point of view, the longevity of BI games is due in most part to the generous contributions that Addon makers to the community. If something like Steam Workshop prevented addon makers from providing content then the game will die a lot quicker than it otherwise would. Just the existence of Steam Workshop is enough as no-one has to prove that they created the work before it was posted up.

People on these forums and on Armaholic are vigilant enough to spot plagerised work and it get's removed pretty quickly, but the owners of these distribution areas are not collecting the commercial rights to anything so no real damage is done to the author if it is not spotted for a while.

I hope that BI and Valve manage to sort something out with regard to the EULA, but something tells me that Valve probably will not budge from their position.

[johncage 30]

don't fix what isn't broken.

[PuFu 4591]

That doesn't make sense. If you don't want to give rights to Valve then no one is going to make you put your content onto steamworks. Why stope people who want to distribute their work through that channel from doing so?

From my point of view, what BI really needs to sort out, in order for the players to be able to fully utilize addons in the mp environment, is to create or incorporate a system that can synk addons required by the server with the client with minimal interaction from the said client (a system that would also list the allowed server addons would be a plus). I know there are solutions out there, six being the first on the list. But just as they have created their own Tracker system, although dev-heaven could have been an option, they are better off creating such a system by themselves, instead of using an outside software (without denying its use for more advanced users out there)

That said, in theory at least, they could accommodate this via Steam Workshop. But the obvious downside is precisely the one that has been under discussion here: valve's eula.

Firstly, steam/valve does not have legal rights to rock's works if you upload them without permission. I.P law (and property rights more generally) just doesn't work like that.

I agree that there is a practical problem insofar as it takes time to contact Valve and tell them to take content down, but I fail to see how this is specific to steam workshop. The same would be true about contacting any host regarding an I.P. violation.

Of course it valve doesn't have the IP rights. It is also a matter of reach. If you would host rocks addon on some obscure russian website, it might actually impossible to force you to take you off, but your reach would be minimal for the said playerbase (you would most likely be banned/removed from most community websites and BIF and direct links removed, making distribution for those files pretty hard). It wouldn't be the same if those would be hosted on steam (with A3 being Steam exclusive game anyways). IRC, in some cases, it took months for someone to take down content of the workshop in the case of skyrim.

[MissileMoose 10]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread, but I'm pretty sure that starting a civil lawsuit against Valve would give them their right to terminate your account (as per the accepted terms and conditions).

[Dwarden 1124]

about the SWS LA ... section 2.a ,

a.You grant to Valve a worldwide, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, assignable right and license to ( a) use, copy, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media, (b ) identify You as the source of the Contribution, and (c ) sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law.

... according to preliminary analysis , this is lawyer US english to cover theirs neck to be able distribue mods at all in the SWS

notice the 'non-exclusive' word

[rksl-rock 1300]

about the SWS LA ... section 2.a ,

... according to preliminary analysis , this is lawyer US english to cover theirs neck to be able distribue mods at all in the SWS

notice the 'non-exclusive' word

If that is the case why do they need to: "modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media"

The advice I've received from my UK IP advisor is "Do not upload anything under that licence if you want to retain your rights. Because if you do, then you won't have any after the fact."

[Dwarden 1124]

If that is the case why do they need to: "modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media"

The advice I've received from my UK IP advisor is "Do not upload anything under that licence if you want to retain your rights. Because if you do, then you won't have any after the fact."

most likely because of the repacking and distribution format ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

anyway if anyone has various/different expertise / comment on the SWS's LA then I would like to read it

[dayglow 2]

I would really like to see one example of valve ever taking original content from any mod, uploaded to SWS or otherwise, and repackaging it to use in any game they've created.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Hmmm ... seems pretty clear to me. Upload = Wave Goodbye

Nothing of mine goes to Steamworks, particularly when some of the content is from other authors, who only provided limited permissions.

All the newbies will have to learn how to download and install mods manually ..... like we have been quite fine doing for 10 years with all BI games.

Or use a cool community tool like PwS

[Binkowski 26]

Gnat;2360140']Hmmm ... seems pretty clear to me. Upload = Wave Goodbye

Nothing of mine goes to Steamworks' date=' particularly when some of the content is from other authors, who only provided limited permissions.

All the newbies will have to learn how to download and install mods manually ..... like we have been quite fine doing for 10 years with all BI games.

Or use a cool community tool like PwS[/quote']

I have to agree completely. I'll be waving goodbye if the workshop comes. And to further support Gnats point here, just learn the modfolder method. It's been that way for 10+ years, and there has never been an issue with it.

[babylonjoke 22]

Gnat;2360140']Hmmm ... seems pretty clear to me. Upload = Wave Goodbye

Nothing of mine goes to Steamworks' date=' particularly when some of the content is from other authors, who only provided limited permissions.

All the newbies will have to learn how to download and install mods manually ..... like we have been quite fine doing for 10 years with all BI games.

Or use a cool community tool like PwS[/quote']

+1 and actually the modfolder method it's not even hard to understand.

What happnes if I upload a Mod on Armaholic, and some other guy upload my mod on steam workshop? Can I complain? How does it works? can somebody explain me?

[rksl-rock 1300]

...What happnes if I upload a Mod on Armaholic, and some other guy upload my mod on steam workshop? Can I complain? How does it works? can somebody explain me?

Thats a large part of this debate. No ones seems to be getting a proper answer from Valve. But judging from other communities it is an issue.

http://www.iguanadons.net/Mod-Theft-and-Steam-Workshop-497.html

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/551484-nexus-vs-steam-workshop-a-warning-for-modders/

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/533649-steam-workshop-eula/

http://www.theengineeringguild.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=346:a-look-at-steam-workshop&catid=7&Itemid=101

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=361&p=1597413

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2943419.html

http://www.interlopers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35797&start=30

It seems to have been an issue of concern with many other modders and communities. There are of course those that dont see it as a problem but it depends on where you sit. And how concerned you are about retaining control of your IP rights.

[nodunit 397]

What little convenience it offers isn't worth the hell it would unleash.

All I see is people getting bit and losing a desire to create.

Sure we're not in it for money but nobody likes seeing their work stolen with someone touting it about as though they made it themselves.

The ability to distribute is NOT what encourages people to mod, nobody thinks "I would love to mod, but only if I could distribute it to as many people as possible"

In fact distribution is one of the third if not farthest thoughts on someones mind when it comes to modding.

Edited March 30, 2013 by NodUnit

[mmaruda 20]

I was very favourable toward the workshop in Arma III after my experience with CS:GO maps and the ease of use it provided... Until I read the license. I respect the modding community very much and that means Steam Workshop is a no go if anyone would ask. I think our best hope is the Play With Six thing.

[[aps]gnat 28]

In fact distribution is one of the third if not farthest thoughts on someones mind when it comes to modding.

Yes, but now I've got to consider adding new lines to my standard README text .... :(

Permission must be sort to use any included material.

Not for commercial or military use with any product.

Not for porting to other games or product etc.

No party is permitted to extinguish or modify any of the above author(s) rights and permissions.

Submission of the content to any party or system that extinguishes or modifies any author(s) rights and permissions is not permitted.

[babylonjoke 22]

Gnat;2360495']Yes' date=' but now I've got to consider adding new lines to my standard README text .... :([/quote']

Just a shame that no one cares much about readme text as well as manuals when we are talking about stealing [EDIT: (that was quite misunderstood, sorry for that, I was meaning that who is going to steal stuffs unfortunaly never care about readme files)]... :(

However, is BIS allowed to refuse the Workshop support? If yes I'm crossing fingers for that.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Babylonjoke

[MasterDon 10]

This is a more in depth issue than I had originally imagined. I suppose Steam Workshop is a no go for now. It might have made modding easier but I think the way we mod things now is perfectly fine.

[Binkowski 26]

I'm glad to see members of the community are finally seeing why Rock, Gnat, and many others are against the Steamworkshop.

[John Spartan 89]

I am with Binkowski, Rock, Gnat, Woolle and others on this matter.

And I am glad that more and more people start understanding why at these conditions current modding community feels betrayed and frustrated. I might a started releasing some of my work just recently, but this possibility of being forced to use steam workshop will put me away from even trying to do more mods. I don't want any of my work or work of other people who contributed to project being released under such licence. Its enough for me to be forced usage of steam (I can barely cope with this, but just to support BIS).

This game has lived such a long life and became as it is just because of modding community as it now. All community made addons have been making this game more and more playable and "endless/immortal" - there was always some cool addon to get from Armaholic, ArmedassultInfo or from OFP info every week. It worked very well.

Take Rockets big project - DAYZ, would this project gone as far as it is now if steam workshop and such EULA would be in place at that time - I don't think so - someone would already stolen his hard work and that might a be of him stopping to publish his work. How much then BIS would loose - from their customer base?

The only reasonable option I see is change of steam EULA (regarding ARMA series games) and allowing to have dual community where steam workshop is optional. Till that is sorted I wont publish anything for ARMA 3.

My hope lies within BIS grooving the muscle to get their own digital store up to the standard to being able to sell their own games without middleman. This is where community needs to stick together and support BIS and BIS from their side must understand and not forget the huge influence of community boosting this game in last decade. Otherwise I am afraid there will be no ARMA 4....

[chortles 263]

My hope lies within BIS grooving the muscle to get their own digital store up to the standard to being able to sell their own games without middleman.

Unfortunately, the explanation from DnA and Maruk was that the decision to go Steamworks -- "Steam client required" -- had more to do with the state of Arma 3 development (which we already knew to be troubled*) and not any inadequacy of the BI Store... heck, the only time that the BI Store showed any "inadequacy" during all this was during on day one of the public alpha release. :p

* "DayZ standalone"'s affects aside, we know that the Greek incident affected development beyond more than the renaming of Limnos to Altis.

[John Spartan 89]

@Chortles, might a expressed my self a bit wrong (English is a second language for me)

I don't think that BIS store is at "inadequate" standard now. I was not able to buy my copy on day of release, ok, but I bought it a bit latter. I have no problems to wait a bit, that excuse from others - I can get it straight away from steam why not just go with it- from my point of view is lack of interest in BIS and this communities future.

And by "BIS grooving their strength" I mean their ability stand by themselves as an independent developer being able to deliver quality content not some arcade game just because "market" is full with them. Off Corse I understand perfectly to develop resources and infrastructure to get to that point will take money and time, but they can get there and if community support will be kept on same level as it was so far then its a real possibility.

[chortles 263]

I don't think that BIS store is at "inadequate" standard now. I was not able to buy my copy on day of release, ok, but I bought it a bit latter. I have no problems to wait a bit, that excuse from others - I can get it straight away from steam why not just go with it- from my point of view is lack of interest in BIS and this communities future.

The whole big fuss was over Arma 3 requiring Steam accounts and Steam client use in order to play... I do find the "I have no problems to wait a bit" funny, especially remembering back during the early days of the Steam announcement when people here were protesting or pleading, "I can wait until 2014 for a Steam-free version!" when the clear implication from the announcement was that Maruk was not willing to wait until 2014.

And by "BIS grooving their strength" I mean their ability stand by themselves as an independent developer being able to deliver quality content not some arcade game just because "market" is full with them. Off Corse I understand perfectly to develop resources and infrastructure to get to that point will take money and time, but they can get there and if community support will be kept on same level as it was so far then its a real possibility.

I believe that you're still misunderstanding what I mean... and I have no idea what your post is supposed to have to do with the idea of a Steam Workshop announcement or a "we're not doing Steam Workshop" announcement.