ARMA III & Steam WORKSHOP

[lesscubes 1]

I don't really get the impetus to use Steam Workshop. Mainly, it's a really easy way to deliver content to people who may not be privy to a games actual community but beyond that what does it offer?

I'm like Steam in general, it's DRM but it's not awful as far as DRM goes. But I don't use Workshop on my steam games that do support it. NMM gets used for my Bethesda stuff. Sixupdater and Play with Six has always worked well enough for me in ARMA II.

[k3lt 3]

As is your constant wish for the discussion to end. What are you afraid of?

Because what i think is you actually dont give a damn about about their EULA or anything else in this matter.

For me it looks like actually you're the one who is afraid of something, i'd put my bet you are somehow affiliated with Armaholic and basically you dont want to "share the market" as they would surely lose numerous users/traffic.

It would make perfect sense why you're constantly accusing Steam without any evidence or facts, entirely based on speculations and "possibilites".

And as you probably deducated it already, I dont care as i'm not affiiliated with any of that websites.

Basically you want to force something for your own interest, and make the entire community to suffer from this decision.

LOL yeah you are forgetting that BIS don't own Steam, Valve or Workshop and its not their agreement we would have to "sign" to use Workshop.

I already posted if (at all) we use STEAMworks, then we will moderate the addons similar like on the forums and all community addon websites/hubs which works with us ... and if needed to take the violators downs

so let me rephrase one spokesperson " there is nothing to fear, there are no IP problems in the country of content makers and these clouds above your heads are just imaginary" ;)

Snap.

Atleast this is how it looks like from my point of view, hope i was clear this time. :)

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[nodunit 397]

I just dread to think of all the time wasted in going through all these legal hoops about theft..the thread posted on the previous page started in February and cooled down in September, that is a lot of time wasted for 'convenience'.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Because what i think is you actually dont give a damn about about their EULA or anything else in this matter.

For me it looks like actually you're the one who is afraid of something, i'd put my bet you are somehow affiliated with Armaholic and basically you dont want to "share the market" as they would surely lose numerous users/traffic.

It would make perfect sense why you're constantly accusing Steam without any evidence or facts, entirely based on speculations and "possibilites".

Ah here we go conspiracy theory time. :D

You'd lose your bet.... Actually ignore that do you want to put some money on it :p

As I've previously said Foxhound is friend of mine but I have no interest in ArmAholic vs Workshop. Regardless of what happens I think ArmAholic will adapt and survive quite easily. Its been the portal for the ArmA modding community for the last 6-7 years. I dont see that changing for the established community.

I am not accusing anyone. I am expressing my concerns over that licence and what it would mean to me based on my own research and the experiences of other in various games etc. Others here have similar or different concerns about Workshop, should we all keep quiet because you don't agree?

And as you probably deducated it already, I dont care as i'm not affiiliated with any of that websites.

Basically you want to force something for your own interest, and make the entire community to suffer from this decision.

I've already deduced that you dont really care what anyone else has to say. Our concerns obviously don't matter to you. And for you to say that the entire community will suffer because of my posts is a bit melodramatic don't you think?

Snap.

Ah lets see what actually happens shall we.

The way I understand it Steam's clients/partners dont actually have the ability to remove 3rd party content from "Workshops". Buts that my understanding after reading the Steam T&Cs. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong though.

Edited March 17, 2013 by RKSL-Rock

[dayglow 2]

Even if there is a Workshop for Arma 3, Armaholic will be fine. TES Nexus is doing fine along side the workshop. Really in the end it doesn't matter, I will mod my game from what is available. I just know people that view modding Arma a steep learning curve like it or not and would like to have an easy experience for them to make our MP games easier to get into. Also I don't mind the idea of knowing that my mods will be up to date whenever I launch the game. Six may fit the bill, we'll see.

[PuFu 4599]

Because what i think is you actually dont give a damn about about their EULA or anything else in this matter.

For me it looks like actually you're the one who is afraid of something, i'd put my bet you are somehow affiliated with Armaholic and basically you dont want to "share the market" as they would surely lose numerous users/traffic.

It would make perfect sense why you're constantly accusing Steam without any evidence or facts, entirely based on speculations and "possibilites".

Hey laddie, why don't you try and calm yourself down a bit?

1. rock is not affiliated with any hosting website. So please keep betting...

2. moreso, even of steam workshop would be implemented, I for once, as well as RHS, and most likely a lot of other people around here besides RKSL will never accept such a license giving up my IP rights towards Valve. I am not saying that some might not be willing to for some weird reason, but anyone making a living out of the 3d industry won't.

3. even with BI moderating that part of the workshop, things wouldn't matter all that much, besides, for instance, you uploading my work there, in which case i would ask to be taken down asap.

While i am all for an integrated way to handle mods, being able to download directly from a place based on server preferences and needs, what you obviously fail to comprehend is that in it's current form, that steam workshop would never be really populated with content, because no one sane would ever give up his IP rights...

And no, rock is far from being alone in this one, but since he is the one who had the most to suffer in the past from theft, he is the most vocal. Others such as myself, Max, Wolle, Bink, Nou, SA have all expressed their fears before, even if not all on those forums

[k3lt 3]

Our concerns obviously don't matter to you.

What about speaking for yourself, you're some kind of "community voice"?

And to be more precise, yes i dont care about YOUR concerns, again: speculations, accusations, false statements.

@up I'm oasis of calm, don't worry "laddie." ;)

Tapatalked.

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[rksl-rock 1300]

What about speaking for yourself, you're some kind of "community voice"?

And to be more precise, yes i dont care about YOUR concerns, again: speculations, accusations, false statements.

I refer your to Pufu's post above.

And Binkowski's

When I say OUR, I mean the 10 or so people i've actually spoken to about this. (Incidentally none of them was either Pufu, Binkowski or Soul Assassin)

As for being a community spokesman. No I would never put my self up for that role. What about you?

[k3lt 3]

As for being a community spokesman. No I would never put my self up for that role. What about you?

Pretty low try of flame baiting.

Anyway you didn't answered:

Then tell BIS you're not allowing to use your mods in Steam Workshop and they will take care of it, discussion over and we can have Steam Workshop without your mods.

So if BIS actually properly moderated it you have nothing against Steam Workshop is that correct?

Tapatalked.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Pretty low try of flame baiting.

No worse than your own. You do seem to be setting yourself up as Spokesman for the "opposition" so I thought it was a valid question all the same.

Anyway you didn't answered:

Actually I did. You obviously didnt understand. I'm saying from what I've read I'm not sure BIS could take content down from Steam's Workshops. Judging from the T&Cs publicly available I don't think Valve would give them that much control.

So if BIS actually properly moderated it you have nothing against Steam Workshop is that correct?

Wrong. You've missed the point again. As long as the Workshop licence means I have to sign over all my rights to Valve I wouldnt touch it with a 10ft pole regardless of whether BIS moderated it or not.

[k3lt 3]

Um you don't quite get it, I'm not asking if you would use Steam Workshop - i couldnt care less.

I'm asking if you are happy with Steam Workshop implementation in Arma 3 if your mods would be kept away from it.

It's really simple. So?

Tapatalked.

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[rksl-rock 1300]

Um you don't quite get it, I'm not asking if you would use Steam Workshop - i couldnt care less.

I'm asking if you are happy with Steam Workshop implementation with Arma 3 if your mods would be kept away from it.

It's really simple.

Ah changing the question again ok. Yes and No I wouldn't be happy. And not for the reason I think you are going to guess at.

• Yes - because it does represent something that would be useful and easy to use.
  

• No - because as I previously said, "...as far as I know Workshop isnt going to solve the age old problem of joining MP servers running custom Mod packs." Its something that a lot of people seem to think Workshop will fix. unless BIS do something quite radical with the MP server application for ArmA3 then its only ever going to be half a solution. There is a screaming need for Server > Client Syncing. Either via Workshop or a 3rd party repository. IE private file server or ArmAholic etc.
  

But using Workshop for that brings us right back to the license issues. Which as Pufu also confirms a lot of us arent happy about...

[chrisb 196]

I'm not wadding into this argument, its going nowhere anyway, but.

There maybe a time that comes whereby content used from other sources are forbidden by BIS, preferring to stay with steam/workshop for all the game content and addons.

I use Armaholic a lot for downloading mod/addons, it’s ‘the place’ to do this really. But the worry is, where Arma 3 is concerned, that the corner has already been turned and its just a matter of time before we see the new road ahead.

I’ve read the steam legal agreements, it does give them a right over the mod/addon makers work, its there on the page, no doubting that. If or whether they would use that right is yet to be seen.

I would love BIS to hassle steam/valve for better definition of mod makers rights concerning their work. But it probably will never happen, BIS to steam are a small dev company, steam won’t worry if BIS left steam behind, but BIS would worry if steam left BIS behind.

There’s going to be anger and resentment, the series has joined the mainstream, that won’t change now, business wise for BIS it would be silly to withdraw or turn their back on the sales opportunities.

What steam has in the way of legal agreements, licences etc, will be the norm from here on with this series, that will be something some will have to just face. Not just mod/addon makers but players, clans, communities as well. Its changed, nothing any of us do, will change that..

Is it sad..

No, not really, its just a different way..

[dm 9]

What steam has in the way of legal agreements, licences etc, will be the norm from here on with this series, that will be something some will have to just face.

And the way the majority of talented addon makers (you know, the people who actually make new things, not just reskin #13427524523) are going to face this is by no longer releasing their addons.

Then who is going to make new content? k3lt?

[k3lt 3]

And the way the majority of talented addon makers (you know, the people who actually make new things, not just reskin #13427524523) are going to face this is by no longer releasing their addons.

Then who is going to make new content? k3lt?

Did i ever say to shutdown Armaholic? You can use it aslong as you want and download mods from wherever you want, just as people that wish to use Steam Workshop.

It worked fine with Skyrim, Fallout: NV and countless other games which previously has been using 3rd party modding websites. (which are still doing fine)

And once it hit Steam Workshop you can expect tons of new modders. (some talented more than others, this is how it is)

Live and let others live.

Ah changing the question again ok. Yes and No I wouldn't be happy. And not for the reason I think you are going to guess at.

• Yes - because it does represent something that would be useful and easy to use.
  

• No - because as I previously said, "...as far as I know Workshop isnt going to solve the age old problem of joining MP servers running custom Mod packs." Its something that a lot of people seem to think Workshop will fix. unless BIS do something quite radical with the MP server application for ArmA3 then its only ever going to be half a solution. There is a screaming need for Server > Client Syncing. Either via Workshop or a 3rd party repository. IE private file server or ArmAholic etc.
  

But using Workshop for that brings us right back to the license issues. Which as Pufu also confirms a lot of us arent happy about...

So now you are worried about Steam Workshop functionality? Interesting, i though you had no intent in using it then why even care?

Oh wait, yes we all know WHY.

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[ProfTournesol 956]

And once it hit Steam Workshop you can expect tons of new modders

I would be curious to see that.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Did i ever say to shutdown Armaholic? You can use it aslong as you want and download mods from wherever you want, just as people that wish to use Steam Workshop.

It worked fine with Skyrim, Fallout: NV and countless other games which previously has been using 3rd party modding websites. (which are still doing fine)

And once it hit Steam Workshop you can expect tons of new modders. (some talented more than others, this is how it is)

Live and let others live.

Has anyone here ever demanded the Workshop be shut down? I can tell you the answer; its No.

If it works so well with Skyrim why does Nexus host almost 80% of the available content?

And I would love to see "these tons of new modders" appear. I just won't hold my breathe just yet though. :D

So now you are worried about Steam Workshop functionality? Interesting, i though you had no intent in using it then why even care?

Oh wait, yes we all know WHY.

http://www.nfohump.com/forum/images/smiles/awwyeah.png

LOL you asked: "I'm asking if you are happy with Steam Workshop implementation with Arma 3 if your mods would be kept away from it."

In that context ie without my addons involved I replied. I dont think Workshop is the solution we actually need. Stop desperately twisting my words.

EDIT: And why do I care? Well, regardless of whether I choose to use it or not, some muppet could put my content on it effectively stealing my IP. I'd then have to 'fight' Valve to get it back. Which is more effort for me.

Edited March 17, 2013 by RKSL-Rock
Added a bit

[metalcraze 290]

A DayZ player thinks that Steam Workshop will be a mana from heaven that will solve everything and teaches old-time ArmA modders about how everything really is.

Bonus: he also links a smiley from a website that is a database for pirate releases.

[rksl-rock 1300]

A DayZ player thinks that Steam Workshop will be a mana from heaven that will solve everything and teaches old-time ArmA modders about how everything really is.

Bonus: he also links a smiley from a website that is a database for pirate releases.

HAHA I hadnt noticed that :P

[k3lt 3]

Bonus: he also links a smiley from a website that is a database for pirate releases.

Yeah, i actually enjoy reading forums where people are free to speak whatever they want not moderated because of negative opinions about some games / software. It's called freedom of speech. :)

And FYI it's a 100% legal website, which is not hosting anything illegal. ;)

About the DayZ i will ignore this comment, as i used to play it for maybe about a month or so and it's completely irrelevant.

EDIT: And why do I care? Well, regardless of whether I choose to use it or not, some muppet could put my content on it effectively stealing my IP. I'd then have to 'fight' Valve to get it back. Which is more effort for me.

You're repetitive:

I already posted if (at all) we use STEAMworks, then we will moderate the addons similar like on the forums and all community addon websites/hubs which works with us ... and if needed to take the violators downs

so let me rephrase one spokesperson " there is nothing to fear, there are no IP problems in the country of content makers and these clouds above your heads are just imaginary" ;)

And finally:

Has anyone here ever demanded the Workshop be shut down? I can tell you the answer; its No.

Yes, this is what you're actually trying to achieve.

And the arguments about lack of functionality of Steam Workshop and legal issues... smoke and mirrors.

If it works so well with Skyrim why does Nexus host almost 80% of the available content?

Thank you for proving what i've said. :cool:

It worked fine with Skyrim, Fallout: NV and countless other games which previously has been using 3rd party modding websites. (which are still doing fine)

Edited March 17, 2013 by k3lt

[UbiquitousUK 11]

I don't see the problem with Steamworks.

Are people saying that they think someone will take content that isn't theirs and assign unlimited usage rights to Valve? It's impossible for someone to assign I.P. rights in something they don't own; any attempt to transfer rights to Valve would be invalid and Valve would be obliged to respect the rights owner's demands to desist in any usage. The only time the Steamworks agreement would have any bite is when people are transferring rights in their own intellectual property, and they should be free to do that if they wish.

[PuFu 4599]

You're repetitive:

I already posted if (at all) we use STEAMworks, then we will moderate the addons similar like on the forums and all community addon websites/hubs which works with us ... and if needed to take the violators downs

And you still fail to grasp: it won't be populated by original content creators.

Yes, this is what you're actually trying to achieve.

And the arguments about lack of functionality of Steam Workshop and legal issues... smoke and mirrors.

There is NO argument regarding the closure of Steam Workshop. You laddie are delusional.

And FYI it's a 100% legal website, which is not hosting anything illegal.

LOL what? Bipolar much?

I don't see the problem with Steamworks.

Are people saying that they think someone will take content that isn't theirs and assign unlimited usage rights to Valve? It's impossible for someone to assign I.P. rights in something they don't own; any attempt to transfer rights to Valve would be invalid and Valve would be obliged to respect the rights owner's demands to desist in any usage.

While that is true, taking down something that has been already been uploaded on the workshop is a very lenghty and time consuming process, unless BI has someone from their staff actually moderating it. But so far, for all the games currently on the workshop, the moderation is scarce and it is done by valve employees and not developers employees.

The only time the Steamworks agreement would have any bite is when people are transferring rights in their own intellectual property, and they should be free to do that if they wish.

Which is exactly the point: with this agreement:

You grant to Valve the following rights, which Valve may exercise or not in its sole discretion:

a.You grant to Valve a worldwide, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, assignable right and license to (a) use, copy, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, modify, and create derivative works from Your Contribution in any media, (b) identify you as the source of the Contribution, and © sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law.

i fail to see its purpose...

[rksl-rock 1300]

Pufu beat me to most of it.

Thank you for proving what i've said. :cool:

So far what you've said is false accusations and a lack of understanding. Especially when in that particular instance is state an established fact. Not my opinion, but hey ho its obvious you're grasping now.

[UbiquitousUK 11]

While that is true, taking down something that has been already been uploaded on the workshop is a very lenghty and time consuming process, unless BI has someone from their staff actually moderating it. But so far, for all the games currently on the workshop, the moderation is scarce and it is done by valve employees and not developers employees.

But this is a separate issue. The justificantion for not using Steam Workshop is that it involves an assignment of I.P rights. You are now not talking about the license terms, but rather about the piracy of content. There are two problems with steamworks:

1. You have to transfer unlimited usage rights to valve when putting content up there.
   
2. People might upload content that isn't theirs and try to take credit for it.
   

1 is not really a problem because any transfer of rights to Valve is invalid if the transferer does not have any rights in the I.P. concerned. Nobody is going to be able to give away any I.P. rights that they don't own.

2 is a problem, but it is in no way a problem specific to steam. I can easily take someone's I.P. and put it up on a website I host on some Swedish server somewhere. If anything, Steam helps with this problem because it's going to be a lot easier to get that content taken off of steam workshop than it is to get it taken down from some random website.

Edited March 17, 2013 by UbiquitousUK

[PuFu 4599]

But this is a separate issue. The justificantion for not using Steam Workshop is that it involves an assignment of I.P rights. You are now not talking about the license terms, but rather about the piracy of content. There are two problems with steamworks:

1. You have to transfer unlimited usage rights to valve when putting content up there.
   
2. People might upload content that isn't theirs and try to take credit for it.
   

1 is not really a problem because any transfer of rights to Valve is invalid if the transferer does not have any rights in the I.P. concerned. Nobody is going to be able to give away any I.P. rights that they don't own.

2 is a problem, but it is in no way a problem specific to steam. I can easily take someone's I.P. and put it up on a website I host on some Swedish server somewhere. If anything, Steam helps with this problem because it's going to be a lot easier to get that content taken off of steam workshop than it is to get it taken down from some random website.

1. it is THE problem. I own the intellectual property for all the original content i make. According to BI eula, i am just not able to use them commercially if i use BI Tools to make it (even so, the original creator still owns the IP for his work). But since i don't use Bi tools to create those, i only use BI tools to get them ingame, i still own the IP for everything i do, and i can even sell the content in their original format. I am far from being the only one in this situation.

2. i am less trouble by this to be perfectly honest. But even so, i see some possible friction going here. Skyrim is the example.