More realistic/depressing feeling

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Dont you think a soldier would be scared when he's suppressed? I think that simulate this feeling how a military simulation should and it must not as strong as in bf 3

As has been said, depends on the physique of the individual soldier, but techniques have been developed to train people to make uniform response to a threat and it isn't to "run away" or "fall face down and cry". Unless you want to play an AIDS-infected, hallucinating schizo soldier, I don't think such mechanic belongs in ArmA.

What would be even more sad, is that the second this is introduced, I would regard it as a gimmick and roll my eyes as my character is "suppressed" and then probably uninstall the game, since I can't bear seeing such a beautiful masterpiece with very elaborate maps like Chernarus go to waste due to an unrealistic mechanic.

[jhoson14 10]

So what? That's your problem. You control your avatar. You are the one to feel fear if it means gameover.

Remember, this is ArmA! I can pilot Chinook and do kamikaze into position with 8 enemies in PvP without any fear effects. It'll free rest of my squad from being pinned down and I'll respawn in 30-60 secs. I can run alone into 8 enemies from behind and try luck and kill them one by one without any fear effects.

(<sarcasm>Thank you for your information. So far I've been running around with M-60 and spraying like Rambo.</sarcasm>)

Well, to me its diferent. Since i play in more realistic servers, do a kamikaze and get some weeks banned ^^ and there's no respaw after getting killed.

Try running like a rambo in the open after being spotted and get killed in seconds.

[batto 17]

Well, to me its diferent. Since i play in more realistic servers, do a kamikaze and get some weeks banned ^^ and there's no respaw after getting killed.

Try running like a rambo in the open after being spotted and get killed in seconds.

But this is no justification for fear effects affecting your ability to see and aim. (In fact, if you're so hardcore, you shouldn't need it at all).

[rye1 21]

They should add a piss your pants effect.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Remember, this is ArmA! I can pilot Chinook and do kamikaze into position with 8 enemies in PvP without any fear effects. It'll free rest of my squad from being pinned down and I'll respawn in 30-60 secs. I can run alone into 8 enemies from behind and try luck and kill them one by one without any fear effects.

Interesting thing is that even in missions with respawn like Warfare, there's a genuine amount of fear going on if you're in a town and know there's an enemy player(-s) present: you may be denied respawn very easily and ported back to base, thus losing control of said town/resource.

[liquidpinky 11]

What would be even more sad, is that the second this is introduced, I would regard it as a gimmick and roll my eyes as my character is "suppressed" and then probably uninstall the game, since I can't bear seeing such a beautiful masterpiece with very elaborate maps like Chernarus go to waste due to an unrealistic mechanic.

I am in 100% agreement with this, it is only barable in A2 as it is.

Even then, taking fire and being unable to react to kill your (poorly aiming) adversery before he kills you is BS. It should make you concentrate more as your life is now on the line.

Since when is getting up and running away bearley able to see like a screaming 13 year old drunk schoolgirl realistic?

The demand for suppression mechanics these days make me wonder if those people have ever been in a life threatening situation and if they have, how poorly they have handled it.

[Madeon 6]

I've changed my opinion on this topic. Some of the comments here, and some facts that I researched today have persuaded me that I was wrong.

Originally I dissapproved of any form of 'simulated suppression effects', I considered them as unnecessary gimmicks because I figured the penalty of being killed or wounded ingame was reason enough for players to want to hide behind cover. Whenever I am pinned behind cover in arma and the enemy is firing at my position I quickly pop out from cover and snap off quick shots at the enemy, but I don't spend time taking careful aim because I don't want to risk getting shot.

I have always considered this as an reasonably realistic simulation of suppression, but this discussion convinced me to do some research on the effects of epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) to learn what effect adrenaline has on vision.

To cut a long story short, during periods of high adrenaline production our vision tends to get blurry. Now I get a quite a thrill out of being in firefights when playing arma, but I'd be a bare faced liar if I said that it impairs my vision.

My conclusion - suppression effects are a necessity if we wish to simulate realism.

[dmarkwick 261]

I am in 100% agreement with this, it is only barable in A2 as it is.

Even then, taking fire and being unable to react to kill your (poorly aiming) adversery before he kills you is BS. It should make you concentrate more as your life is now on the line.

All I can think is: it must be great to imagine yourself so awesome in the face of AI :) but we're talking suppression effects here. That means that if you as a player should feel no fear, then *some other* mechanic is there to deter you from poking your head out. Now, I play with a suppression addon so I get this effect, and the effect it has on me is that I now make an evaluation, whether I can risk some poor snapshots and hope for some luck, or hope for some return suppression. I don't get to fire back with smug impunity that I'm still a great shot. I'm not saying it's for everyone, if you like a more gamey approach then fine, but it makes me play slightly different and that's good.

Since when is getting up and running away bearley able to see like a screaming 13 year old drunk schoolgirl realistic?

I don't know, you're the only one who has imagined such a thing, why don't you tell us? :)

The demand for suppression mechanics these days make me wonder if those people have ever been in a life threatening situation and if they have, how poorly they have handled it.

...aaaaand the resistance to suppression effects makes me wonder how imaginative some people are when it comes to their own bravery :) See how this works? ;)

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

I've changed my opinion on this topic. Some of the comments here, and some facts that I researched today have persuaded me that I was wrong.

Originally I dissapproved of any form of 'simulated suppression effects', I considered them as unnecessary gimmicks because I figured the penalty of being killed or wounded ingame was reason enough for players to want to hide behind cover. Whenever I am pinned behind cover in arma and the enemy is firing at my position I quickly pop out from cover and snap off quick shots at the enemy, but I don't spend time taking careful aim because I don't want to risk getting shot.

I have always considered this as an reasonably realistic simulation of suppression, but this discussion convinced me to do some research on the effects of epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) to learn what effect adrenaline has on vision.

To cut a long story short, during periods of high adrenaline production our vision tends to get blurry. Now I get a quite a thrill out of being in firefights when playing arma, but I'd be a bare faced liar if I said that it impairs my vision.

My conclusion - suppression effects are a necessity if we wish to simulate realism.

Hey that's great and I commend you for it, I've had to do a few 180s in my time and I appreciate the effort you made to resist it :) I mean, we still might be wrong..... (this is a discussion about subjectivity of course) but the fact that you considered, appreciated and changed your viewpoint goes well into your favour :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

So what about having such sfx and "gimmicks" as optional features for those who want or need them? Simple selection via "A3 grapic" / "A3 special effects" menu? :)

[dmarkwick 261]

So what about having such sfx and "gimmicks" as optional features for those who want or need them? Simple selection via "A3 grapic" / "A3 special effects" menu? :)

Well, my own thoughts are more about the physical suppression effects rather than the visual ones. I'm not really a graphic-centric player, I play with all post-processing off & minimal AA, so the visual effects are not really what I'm personally interested in. So as far as visual effects go, I guess I'd already be outside that scope as I cannot see PP. But, I can have my aim disrupted, so maybe the effect should be a game difficulty setting rather than a graphics setting?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Maybe something like "suppressive effect" with a slider so the player can adjust it to his own preference?

[batto 17]

Or server enforced difficulty option.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well BIS just need to add proper info screen/window in mp browser so players can see + agree with customized setups before joining!

[liquidpinky 11]

...aaaaand the resistance to suppression effects makes me wonder how imaginative some people are when it comes to their own bravery :) See how this works? ;)

That's just it though, I know what I am capable of, (in reality and not within my mental image of my own overinflated ego) but someone else is forcing their abilities down my throat. I don't like it and I am sure you don't either.

It is forcing me to react in a way that I already know that I do not, losing immersion in my in game experience.

[chortles 263]

And right there we've got why "suppression for immersion" is ultimately unworkable... because everyone's immersion is different.

[Madeon 6]

And right there we've got why "suppression for immersion" is ultimately unworkable... because everyone's immersion is different.

The best solution would be to make it optional.

[maddogx 13]

I vote for taking out any and all suppression effects. No camera shake, no nothing.

Then, when everyone starts complaining that the game plays like Counterstrike, they can put the suppression effects back in and all will be well. Following that up with a nice dev blog article on good game design would be the icing on the cake.

[G4meM0ment 1]

And right there we've got why "suppression for immersion" is ultimately unworkable... because everyone's immersion is different.

The devs could make it toggleable?! But this would also bring problems in multiplayer.

I think maybe some guys here think I want to have BF 3 like effects right?

I'll try to find a video where it's shown good how I mean it.

[Bee8190 10]

The problem though is that some people are suicidal and even the current suppression effects seems to not affect them. Talking about PvP (or TvT if you prefer), it happened many times that guy being suppressed (M240 vs L85A2) behind a rock just pops out and manage to place a nice shot at my torso, leaving me wounded.

The current suppression effects may not be realistic for everyone but it's most definitely better than none at all and in the end it must be simulated somehow trough our panels. The video one or two pages back actually well visualize the incoming bullet hits and as it is I imagine not many would just stand/ camp that corner and try to ''headshot'' that dude.

I mean, I personally, am pretty calm and straight thinking in situation that others may panic but I bet if I was facing uncomfortably close bullet hits all over my cover, I doubt the first thing I would be thinking about would be to pop up and do something I'd seen in a movie.

That said, I understand not everyone would be scared of bullet impacts 10m away but I do not believe dudes staying pretty damn calm under almsot direct fire

Edited August 21, 2012 by Bee8190

[batto 17]

The problem is that fear is simulated _only_ if bullets hits nearby infantry. If bullets hits heli, pilot is fine. If rocket hits tank and it survives, the crew is fine. If soldier is alone and there's 10 enemies approaching him, he is fine. If mortar nades start exploding near your squad without hurting you, you're fine. So you have many opportunities to play Rambo without fear effects _except_ if bullets hits nearby. And because it seems impossible to simulate fear in all cases it shouldn't be there at all.

And how fear effects affect your infantry gameplay (eg. "I learned to not expose my body") is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is how accurately it simulates reality.

Edited August 21, 2012 by batto

[dmarkwick 261]

The problem is that fear is simulated _only_ if bullets hits nearby infantry. If bullets hits heli, pilot is fine. If rocket hits tank and it survives, the crew is fine. If soldier is alone and there's 10 enemies approaching him, he is fine. If mortar nades start exploding near your squad without hurting you, you're fine. So you have many opportunities to play Rambo without fear effects _except_ if bullets hits nearby. And because it seems impossible to simulate fear in all cases it shouldn't be there at all.

And how fear effects affect your infantry gameplay (eg. "I learned to not expose my body") is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is how accurately it simulates reality.

I should disagree (of course ;)) with this, if a bullet hits a helo, how should it affect the pilot? He loses his ability to fly? Some things don't have an appropriate analog. Plus, although we like to think of ArmA as a simulator, it can't simulate all the things :) there has to be a reasonable cut-off to preserve performance, relevance and gameplay. Suppression is a deliberate act to cause a reduction in the enemy performance, therefore that's what it should do. We're not trying to simulate fear, we're trying to simulate suppression.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:30 ----------

The best solution would be to make it optional.

Oh yeah, for sure make it optional :) I said I have a suppression addon, but I don't always use it :) sometimes I just like to play :)

[metalcraze 290]

That said, I understand not everyone would be scared of bullet impacts 10m away but I do not believe dudes staying pretty damn calm under almsot direct fire

ArmA community has its cold blooded spec ops guys who will only shoot better when a tank shell hits 10m away from them don't you know.

At the same time I bet these folks will be the first in line to not mind if AI will have its accuracy down to zero after just 2 or 3 bullets.

[batto 17]

if a bullet hits a helo, how should it affect the pilot? He loses his ability to fly?

Same as when bullets hit nearby soldier. That is screen effect and controls disruption. In other words he should feel same effects from higher adrenaline production that Madeon researched (and we just believe him for now).

Suppression is a deliberate act to cause a reduction in the enemy performance, therefore that's what it should do.

To AI? Of course. To human player the current bullet-only suppression just simulates "Save the Ryan" movie.

We're not trying to simulate fear, we're trying to simulate suppression.

Suppression is effect of fear. Or military word for "fear".

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

ArmA community has its cold blooded spec ops guys who will only shoot better when a tank shell hits 10m away from them don't you know.

At the same time I bet these folks will be the first in line to not mind if AI will have its accuracy down to zero after just 2 or 3 bullets.

One more time...

V8TXBuXCeL0

Are they not suppressed? What would you people change in terms of "effects" in this scenario, I can't see how you could improve it.

[dmarkwick 261]

Are they not suppressed? What would you people change in terms of "effects" in this scenario, I can't see how you could improve it.

Are you saying there's no suppression effects going on there?

Edited August 21, 2012 by DMarkwick