More realistic/depressing feeling

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I found some very informative documentation on epinephrine (adrenaline).

•Increased rate and force of contraction of the heart muscle.

•Constriction of blood vessels: norepinephrine, resulting in increased resistance and hence arterial blood pressure.

•Increased metabolic rate: oxygen consumption and heat production increase throughout the body in response to epinephrine.

•Dilation of the pupils: particularly important in situations where you are surrounded by velociraptors under conditions of low ambient light.

•Inhibition of certain "non-essential" processes: an example is inhibition of gastrointestinal secretion and motor activity.

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/adrenal/medhormones.html

The problem with all this theory is that in experienced professional who endanger themselves daily, the release of adrenalin is minimal, as the nervous system has come to adapt to certain criteria of "danger". Like I said, tunnel vision, arms shaking, vomiting = virgins' first experience.

[dmarkwick 261]

This is so wrong. Exact opposite is true. The effect should be as realistic as possible and it's up to player how to cope with situation. Newbies will learn by mistakes.

I said it wasn't really the issue, not that it should not BE realistic. The most important feature is how it affects the players. IMO. Because otherwise it's just an eye-candy, and eye-candy I can take or leave.

How about a big blinking sign in the middle of the screen "INCOMING SUPPRESSIVE FIRE. FIND COVER !!!"? I'm sure you would enjoy CoD sir.

Don't be facetious.

[R0adki11 3949]

I've played enough pvp to notice that some players completely panic when they face a sudden "do not want" situation. They'd fire with no accuracy whatsoever or take cover and stay there. From my point of view, stress responses are already in the game courtesy of the players themselves. It's no secret what happens when you take a bullet, and it's up to the player how he reacts.

That is very true, ive panicked in many a situation during PvP, especially when ive been confronted by something i wasn't expecting. I end up diving for cover or switching my weapon to full auto.

[liquidpinky 11]

I've played enough pvp to notice that some players completely panic when they face a sudden "do not want" situation. They'd fire with no accuracy whatsoever or take cover and stay there. From my point of view, stress responses are already in the game courtesy of the players themselves. It's no secret what happens when you take a bullet, and it's up to the player how he reacts.

Please god, let Celery be in charge of the suppression mechanic. :pray:

[dmarkwick 261]

The problem with all this theory is that in experienced professional who endanger themselves daily, the release of adrenalin is minimal, as the nervous system has come to adapt to certain criteria of "danger". Like I said, tunnel vision, arms shaking, vomiting = virgins' first experience.

I mentioned somewhere that perhaps it could be a ramped effect linked to experience, an editor-setting.

[Madeon 6]

From my point of view, stress responses are already in the game courtesy of the players themselves.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but what about for example a ingame situation where a player comes under extremely heavy and accurate fire, but, because he doesn't really care if he gets hit, gambles with his life and returns fire at his attackers. Now in a real-world combat situation no sane person would chance their luck by calmly returning fire whilst being swathed in a hail of bullets, and lets face it the reason most real world firefights last longer than firefights in Arma is because suppressive fire is used to neutralize or suppress the enemy so that forces can manoeuvre.

[G4meM0ment 1]

I've played enough pvp to notice that some players completely panic when they face a sudden "do not want" situation. They'd fire with no accuracy whatsoever or take cover and stay there. From my point of view, stress responses are already in the game courtesy of the players themselves. It's no secret what happens when you take a bullet, and it's up to the player how he reacts.

But as I mentioned in the beginning for me and some other players this would improve the atmopshere.

And I thought in A2 there woild be alsoa suppreasive effect with shaking weapon. So an sfx could be toggleable to let the player choose if he wants it for his atmosphere.

[dmarkwick 261]

I was reminded of this thread last night as I was hiding from a nearby enemy tank (ingame, not IRL ;)) and my screen started shaking & trembling as it rumbled past. An unnecessary effect? Possibly, but it added a huge amount to the situation.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I agree with you to a certain extent, but what about for example a ingame situation where a player comes under extremely heavy and accurate fire, but, because he doesn't really care if he gets hit, gambles with his life and returns fire at his attackers. Now in a real-world combat situation no sane person would chance their luck by calmly returning fire whilst being swathed in a hail of bullets

Why not? If there was no immediate cover present and the danger was as you have described - why not? Fight or flight has kept countless species alive on this planet, and you sometimes have to roll the dice.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

I was reminded of this thread last night as I was hiding from a nearby enemy tank (ingame, not IRL ;)) and my screen started shaking & trembling as it rumbled past. An unnecessary effect? Possibly, but it added a huge amount to the situation.

ACE amplifies near-tank experience by subjecting one to overpressure of tank cannon fire - example couple of pages back, it think this alone should be in-game, then you begin to respect armour and cream pants with joy.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

Why not? If there was no immediate cover present and the danger was as you have described - why not? Fight or flight has kept countless special alive on this planet, and you sometimes have to roll the dice.

Maybe because we wish to dissuade gamey gameplay? :) if a suppression effect were in effect the same player might decide it wasn't a worthwhile risk, effect achieved. However in a situation where he has no choice, well, he has no choice :) you can still return fire, just not pinpoint-accurate fire. Which of course has it's own suppressive effect.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 ----------

ACE amplifies near-tank experience by subjecting one to overpressure of tank cannon fire - example couple of pages back, it think this alone should be in-game, then you begin to respect armour and cream pants with joy.

So you're not adverse to emotionally-charged effects? OK ;)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So you're not adverse to emotionally-charged effects? OK ;)

Can't find emotion in physics. Love this diagram,

[dmarkwick 261]

Can't find emotion in physics.

Also can't find enjoyment, immersion, well, you get the idea ;)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Maybe because we wish to dissuade gamey gameplay? :) if a suppression effect were in effect the same player might decide it wasn't a worthwhile risk, effect achieved. However in a situation where he has no choice, well, he has no choice :) you can still return fire, just not pinpoint-accurate fire. Which of course has it's own suppressive effect.

One will be zig-zagging and bending oneself, which coupled with heavy breathing and aim shake that is already in-game, already results in not pinpoint-accurate fire - there's no need for gimmicks.

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

Also can't find enjoyment, immersion, well, you get the idea ;)

My point is: the Universe doesn't suspend its Laws in order to prevent the destruction of most Holy of Holies. Our emotions are a result of our environments and a ton of biology, which had existed since time immemorial and are subject to said Laws.

BIS can be God too.

P.S. God doesn't use gimmicks. :)

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[ProfTournesol 956]

My point is: the Universe doesn't suspect its Laws in order to prevent the destruction of most Holy of Holies. Our emotions are a result of our environments and a ton of biology, which had existed since time immemorial and are subject to said Laws.

BIS can be God too.

This topic is funky :pet12:

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

This topic is funky :pet12:

Aww, let me replace God with Universe. Better? :cc:

[Madeon 6]

Why not? If there was no immediate cover.

If there was absolutely no cover I would go prone, but that's not the issue here. What I'm saying is that being caught under heavy fire in such a vulnerable position would result in symptoms of extreme stress, and I wish to see this reflected ingame. I'm not suggesting that a suppressed player should suddenly be paralyzed with fear and unable to function, but it's absurd to that pretend that a real soldier would be able to remain perfectly calm under such grave circumstances.

Fight or flight has kept countless special alive on this planet, and you sometimes have to roll the dice.

Untutored courage is no match for educated bullets...

My main concern is that if arma3 MP doesn't have a realistic suppression system it's going to be another COD shitfest.

[liquidpinky 11]

Also can't find enjoyment, immersion, well, you get the idea ;)

Some of us can't the other way round.

To me it would be like having the screen go blurry at an emotional part of a movie, being forced to feel the emotion instead of you deciding how you feel about.

To me that is how in game suppression effects feel.

On another note, it also cheapens any kill I make knowing that the poor sod on the other end was under the effect because I had the cheek/lack of skill to miss with the previous rounds.

Leaves me feeling empty, like I haven't actually acheived anything, like a user of hacks in fact.

Like a BF3 player, or at least how that game leaves me feeling afterwards. Unsatisfied.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

If there was absolutely no cover I would go prone, but that's not the issue here.

Go prone and do what? Not fire back? No you wouldn't, if your brain tells you - "YOU WILL DIE".

What I'm saying is that being caught under heavy fire in such a vulnerable position would result in symptoms of extreme stress and I wish to see this reflected ingame.

Bullshit, adrenalin kicks in and you either keep on running and get gunned down with no further warning at all, falling down flat and hard, or you look for a moment to open up on the threat.

I'm not suggesting that a suppressed player should suddenly be paralyzed with fear and unable to function, but it's absurd to that pretend that a real soldier would be able to remain perfectly calm under such grave circumstances.

You can't stop heightened alertness levels with high pulse rate and twitchiness - I wouldn't call that perfectly calm.

Untutored courage is no match for educated bullets...

My main concern is that if arma3 MP doesn't have a realistic suppression system it's going to be another COD shitfest.

What are you talking about? All of the arcade shooters have said suppression systems, hampering vision mainly, but still.

[dmarkwick 261]

Aww, let me replace God with Universe. Better? :cc:

... or Universe with Game...? :)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Some of us can't the other way round.

To me it would be like having the screen go blurry at an emotional part of a movie, being forced to feel the emotion instead of you deciding how you feel about.

To me that is how in game suppression effects feel.

Exactly, true art can bring out the emotions in you by sheer integrity of immersion that it provides, or profound concepts, which the viewer can associate with.

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

... or Universe with Game...? :)

Any beautifully-constructed System, that has a set of coherent Laws can be used there.

[dmarkwick 261]

Some of us can't the other way round.

To me it would be like having the screen go blurry at an emotional part of a movie, being forced to feel the emotion instead of you deciding how you feel about.

To me that is how in game suppression effects feel.

On another note, it also cheapens any kill I make knowing that the poor sod on the other end was under the effect because I had the cheek/lack of skill to miss with the previous rounds.

Leaves me feeling empty, like I haven't actually acheived anything, like a user of hacks in fact.

Like a BF3 player, or at least how that game leaves me feeling afterwards. Unsatisfied.

Well, I guess you're just one of those players who don't agree with having suppression in the game then. But suppression is a real tactic. I understand that a subsection of players feel that they already act as though their lives are in danger, and that's fine.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, I guess you're just one of those players who don't agree with having suppression in the game then. But suppression is a real tactic.

The tactic employs bullets. That's it! Nothing else! For if you dare to disregard this tactic and expose yourself, you will be hit by a projectile traveling at multiple velocities of the speed of sound. You will surely drop dead with no motion blur and/or slow motion.

[Madeon 6]

Go prone and do what? Not fire back?

I would go prone if there was no cover, I never said that I wouldn't return fire, what I said is that under such grave circumstances the player should display symptoms of extreme stress.

Bullshit, adrenalin kicks in and you either keep on running and get gunned down with no further warning at all, falling down flat and hard, or you look for a moment to open up on the threat.

Nope. Professional soldiers are trained to go prone and immediately return fire in a situation where there is absolutely no cover available.

You can't stop heightened alertness levels with high pulse rate and twitchiness - I wouldn't call that perfectly calm.

You seem to be under the illusion that humans go into a hypnotic state of extreme concentration and focus when being narrowly missed by incoming bullets, in fact it appears that you think being under fire actually enhances their aiming capabilities...

What are you talking about? All of the arcade shooters have said suppression systems, hampering vision mainly, but still.

They are implimented in an arcadish fashion, I would prefer to see it simulated realistically.

[celery 8]

But suppression is a real tactic.

Suppression is little more than a possible byproduct of firing where you have the most chance of hitting an enemy that is currently in cover, or in cases of risky maneuvering, saturating enemy positions with fire with suppression as the intended result. As such, the appropriate countertactic is to stay in solid cover. If the soldier being under fire doesn't feel suppressed and pops out of his cover to kill his assailants, you can deduce that the "suppressive" fire wan't adequate at all. If he pops out of cover and dies, he made a mistake.

Is the problem here the popping out and living because of ineffective incoming fire, or popping out and dying because of effective incoming fire?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I would go prone if there was no cover, I never said that I wouldn't return fire, what I said is that under such grave circumstances the player should display symptoms of extreme stress.

Stress and going prone doesn't correlate - an ignorant target would most likely keep on running in hopes of whatever imaginary relief. Why would you go prone in an open terrain, or a valley? Why not zig-zag some more? That's because you don't know what would happen, humans decide what will happen in every situation, given the circumstances.

They decide by simply playing the game.

Nope. Professional soldiers are trained to go prone and immediately return fire in a situation where there is absolutely no cover available.

We're talking professionals now? This suppression "mechanics" has even less effect on them!

You seem to be under the illusion that humans go into a hypnotic state of extreme concentration and focus when being narrowly missed by incoming bullets, in fact it appears that you think being under fire actually enhances their aiming capabilities...

Adrenalin sharpens your vision, a direct, apparent threat will be quickly refocused and tracked no matter what - is this disputed? I'd rather concentrate on running with keeping my head straight, while trying to pick out the threat in the corner of my eye. But again, circumstances, circumstances.

They are implimented in an arcadish fashion, I would prefer to see it simulated realistically.

I haven't seen a demonstration/example or an in-depth definition/description of this. Sorry. :(