More realistic/depressing feeling

[metalcraze 290]

You will have to adapt then. Either play with suppression or disable it for both of you.

Because as I've said earlier this can easily create a situation where way too many server admins will simply set suppression ON only for AI - and even on private servers clan members have little effect on how CL decides to run the server. Better don't give matches to kids. Everything must be as fair as possible at all times. This is ArmA. There must be zero player-centric features. AI already shoots worse than a player, there gotta be some balance here.

After all both you and AI have the same recoil (and if anything it hurts AI more) - it's the same as disabling recoil only for the player.

[G4meM0ment 1]

NE1l4-vo8I4

It's easy for us to sit in our comfortable chairs telling everyone how brave we would be under fire, but truth is that most of us here we will never know for sure...

I abosultly agree with you, but ingame that would be to much, because thats personal (the screaming, praying and so on).

[dmarkwick 261]

You will have to adapt then. Either play with suppression or disable it for both of you.

Because as I've said earlier this can easily create a situation where way too many server admins will simply set suppression ON only for AI - and even on private servers clan members have little effect on how CL decides to run the server. Better don't give matches to kids. Everything must be as fair as possible at all times. This is ArmA. There must be zero player-centric features. AI already shoots worse than a player, there gotta be some balance here.

After all both you and AI have the same recoil (and if anything it hurts AI more) - it's the same as disabling recoil only for the player.

This is your general point of view and I've known it for some time, and believe it or not I do respect it :)

But still, I believe in server gamestyle choice.

[G4meM0ment 1]

As long as it's ON or OFF both for player and AI and never separately for any of them.

That won't make sense, if you decide to turn it off you also have to cover yourself when they're shhoting at you, if the suppression would be turned off for the AI they won't go into cover...

[rye1 21]

Yeah it's down to the players, DMarkwick is spot on, ARMA is good that way for a mix and match offering.

Suppression is a funny thing though. In PVP's I can't be suppressed 500 meters out unless it's by a fireteam plus element or heavy machinegun. Sometimes I've just ran randomly (serpentine style, all the GK stuff is coming out today!) and skimmed everything that came at me, other times I've shrugged it off and played a headgame until I could go because I knew it was to no effect (i.e. no one was moving on my position). Sometimes I've let myself be seen for them to become fixated (target fixation) with me as another group went about appropriately killing who was engaging me. :cool: The only times I've been REALLY suppressed is say if I held up a corner and they pushed me behind it, so I have limited options to where I can come out, and their triangulation of fire means I have limited space to move and either way I'll probably be seen so I either hid up, RUN or fight back (normally to a lesser survival effect, i.e. you die a lot doing that unless it's done right or your enemy makes a mistake). The other time I was REALLY, REALLY (wish I filmed it really) suppressed was when I was pinned down in a house, to my own fault being caught walking in the door, and I was being engaged by members of a tactical squad in the Australian community; pinging everywhere! Every single entrance, window, opening was being shot. Grenades and M203 were going off. :bounce3: Was great.... I died by the way if you want to know. :D They moved upon me and I was like a kitten. Meow? The best I got was camping the stairwell and killing one. :o

Suppression is interesting too to:

1) Minimize gaps of coverage (i.e. angles where they can escape from or try it on)

2) Lull times during reload (Dynamically changing ROF, angles of coverage, primary and secondary responsibilities of fire)

3) Cover all potential threat areas and engage known threat areas

4) Moves upon the enemy or break contact

AI I don't think could handle that stuff.

On the other hand us engaging AI.

I believe:

1) Suppressing them for some means making them go prone, which would make the game too easy -- Prone then you outmaneuver or another element moves on them, sitting ducks!

2) Suppressing should be making them take cover, kept in a small area or making them FIGHT YOU with all they have, i.e. if there is one rock in a field, you're not going to play it like Monty Python but if the AI were scripted to use any cover then they would be predictable to try grab and hog that instead of spread out, assault or break contact

3) Therefore I believe the AI in order to be suppressed must be able to either retreat or maneuver back and therefore be able to suppress back; what that would consist of would be suppression effects as stated in this thread -- We already see some of them for instance shaking hands, loss of accuracy

My2c.

[chortles 263]

G4meM0ment, the idea behind what metalcraze was suggesting was that either the suppression mechanic (whatever its effects) applies to both sides equally, so that with circumstances being equal (i.e. if it's a player BLUFOR Rifleman versus an AI OPFOR Rifleman, or player OPFOR Rifleman versus AI BLUFOR Rifleman, MX 6.5 mm versus TRG-21 6.5 mm) they're just as vulnerable to being suppressed as the other would be, or that the suppression mechanic not apply to either side (totally disabled), instead of one side (player or AI) be more suppression-vulnerable than the other..

I may disagree (I'm perfectly willing to let it be a server-side thing) :p but that's metalcraze's take... that only one side (player or AI) and not the other is arbitrarily and explicitly disadvantaged by a game mechanic.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Chortles

[metalcraze 290]

That won't make sense, if you decide to turn it off you also have to cover yourself when they're shhoting at you, if the suppression would be turned off for the AI they won't go into cover...

AI is always going into cover in ArmA2 as it is. You don't go into cover because you are suppressed - you go there because of this thing called common sense.

This discussion is about suppression effects.

Yeah it's down to the players, DMarkwick is spot on, ARMA is good that way for a mix and match offering.

Yes let's turn ArmA3 into a yet another horde bot grinder (since AI will not be able to do anything under fire while player will relax while sniping them in dozens) like L4D, Payday, KF and so on coming out every year.

Hey what's the problem it's just an option :rolleyes:

Edited August 22, 2012 by metalcraze

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

As long as it's ON or OFF both for player and AI and never separately for any of them.

How would that work for players: optional "head-bob" slider for visual effects? Any physical crippling mechanics will bring everyone to the lowest common denominator of weeping pussies - count me out.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

I don't understand where AI come in: they won't have 1 to 1 skill level and tactical awareness against a player no matter how you twist and gimmick it, until we get more processing power and better code from the developers themselves.

Discuss this scenario from your perspective, add flying bullets = what do you get? Sobbing, praying, Darwin award winner?

[rye1 21]

Metalcraze, options are what makes missions flexible. Such controversial topics as this, due to the fact that they could be easily 'done wrong', bugged or not suit your conditions means that you have to either do it right and the way a majority would want, allow for options or ignore your player base. Domination, the MSO, other missions ARE a success because of OPTIONS allowing the game to suit player, not the player to suit game. So to be honest I'd come up with the goods, preferably in list form of what suppression effects people want to see and start a poll based on them.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Such controversial topics as this, due to the fact that they could be easily 'done wrong', bugged or not suit your conditions means that you have to either do it right and the way a majority would want, allow for options or ignore your player base. Domination, the MSO, other missions ARE a success because of OPTIONS allowing the game to suit player, not the player to suit game. So to be honest I'd come up with the goods, preferably in list form of what suppression effects people want to see and start a poll based on them.

Well, you see, Rye, if such crap is introduced in ArmA III with jelloscreen and dust being thrown into your eyes every time an opponent misses, or you get schizo spasms whenever there's "danger", then the people that had not played the series before won't spot a difference, but we would be pissed off and probably adapt to this in the end, but some wouldn't on principle.

Kill the fetus with fire before it hatches.

[rye1 21]

Haha kind of agree, but I mean the same with ACE wounding. Good and bad, depends what mood you're in because sometimes you can't be fucked waiting even 2 minutes just to be fucking revived. :D

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Haha kind of agree, but I mean the same with ACE wounding. Good and bad, depends what mood you're in because sometimes you can't be fucked waiting even 2 minutes just to be fucking revived. :D

Now wounds would be something to be discussed in-depth: lots of "effects" and options to be considered. Morphine scavenging for the win. :p

[G4meM0ment 1]

AI is always going into cover in ArmA2 as it is. You don't go into cover because you are suppressed - you go there because of this thing called common sense.

This discussion is about suppression effects.

Yes let's turn ArmA3 into a yet another horde bot grinder (since AI will not be able to do anything under fire while player will relax while sniping them in dozens) like L4D, Payday, KF and so on coming out every year.

Hey what's the problem it's just an option :rolleyes:

Yes but an AI wont have some effect which will affect his atmoshpere, but I know what you mean, like loss of consciousness.

[metalcraze 290]

I don't understand where AI come in: they won't have 1 to 1 skill level and tactical awareness against a player no matter how you twist and gimmick it, until we get more processing power and better code from the developers themselves.

Of course they won't have 1 to 1 skill as the player. The point is in case of suppression effects being considered - to not make AI even worse by them suffering suppression effects like a loss of aiming precision / inability to return fire while suppressed - while the player will not suffer these.

The general point is - if suppression effects were to be included - everybody must suffer them equally whatever they are.

Case in point - TPW AI suppression mod provides a mere loss of precision for AI when under fire. When the same disabled for the player you can wipe out a squad of AIs without much effort by simply suppressing them and then sniping them one by one since even if they return fire - the chance of them hitting you is slim.

However whenever that effect affects the player as well (aim shake) firefights become longer and much more fair. And also force the player to stay in cover. All this talk about "well I will go into cover and stay prone anyway" - yes some player maybe will, but a veteran player knowing AI much better won't. However aim shake leaves no choice to anyone.

And with all the nervousness you can't keep aim straight when suppressed - it's perfectly realistic too.

Edited August 22, 2012 by metalcraze

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

So you don't care for this, unless AI is involved? Simples: remove AI suppression and never add it to the player. Win-win. I agree with you that AI is currently being unresponsive and lacks aggression: rate of fire should be tweaked for all stances and all alertness levels as a minimum to resolve the issue.

Well, and aim shake is at least realistic due to heavy breathing, faster movements, but not bloody muscle spasms, or hallucinations! This is why what I had provided as examples in ACE 2 is enough.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[maturin 12]

Win-win.

Lose-lose!

ArmA firefights are not realistic because there is no point in engaging in suppressive fire. Firing at enemy positions will only occasionally bear fruit when you have to hit within a meter of the AI to suppress them. In PvP without respawn it works better because human beings have a rational sense of self-preservation with the capacity to judge the probability that they will be hit. This is why the AI can suffer more from suppression effects without unbalancing the game.

[dmarkwick 261]

not bloody muscle spasms, or hallucinations!

Despite them being genuine effects? :)

I know you like to play the irrepressible hero (see what I did there? ;)) and that's why we have realism options I guess. But if suppression is to be a genuine game feature (and many people think it should, it's a long-standing discussion) then something needs to happen. But hey - I'm happy with the TPW suppression system. That's a solution that will easily port to ArmA3, so I guess server options are catered for :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well the main goal of suppressive fire is basically to keep the enemy "pinned down" - preventing them to shoot, move and observe the situation. Machine guns and artillery are used to suppress the enemy with good effect. How does the suppressed feel - well depends of his own physical + mental conditions, training and what he is supposed to do. Most will tell you that they were seeking for hardcover, keeping their heads down and after a certain time trying to get back the initiative or figuring out how to stop the suppressive fire or how to leave the area. Some may have shaking hands and temporarily deafness until the "surving instinct" kicks in. This certain time of panicking isn't for everyone the same and doesn't depend on the rank/medals/achievements or marksman skills - one recovers fast, the other needs some seconds more and another just needs to be shouted/yelled (or kicked/pushed) at. Of course you cannot train for every situation but you can train to keep this panicking time as short as possible and get back to the mission. Imo good and believable suppressive effects are sound of bullets + impacts + explosions, orders shouted from TL, swearing from teammates and increasing "plings" of bullets/ricochets very close to the player. No need to have the vision stylish blurred, splattered with blood or dirt or even pulsing eyeballs. Let the player get his head or ass down on his own instead of forcing him into a color/camera sfx trip. :)

[maturin 12]

Somewhere on the internet there was a range of reported responses from participants in gunfights, including some quite striking audiovisual trips.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

LIn PvP without respawn it works better because human beings have a rational sense of self-preservation with the capacity to judge the probability that they will be hit.

Wait. I thought we're all reckless Rambos, who require a sedative injection and a splash of motion blur every time we're being fired at to simulate realistic derpression effects on the human psyche? ;)

You can't possibly argue on any angle as to the benefits of having this suppression mechanics imposed on players. I still haven't seen a successful example of whatever it is you people describe! I have patience, though. :)

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

But hey - I'm happy with the TPW suppression system.

Show me an example, go on, off with you to YouTubes!

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:47 ----------

Found it,

WBJ-nKXsfEY

What does this have to do with players? AI use proper ROF on their weaponry and quick aiming timings - Great! Though where do players come in? As per your vision should people be dropping uncontrollably behind that rock formation and weeping in fear, in addition to being suppressed by that barrage of bullets?!?!

[G4meM0ment 1]

Well the main goal of suppressive fire is basically to keep the enemy "pinned down" - preventing them to shoot, move and observe the situation. Machine guns and artillery are used to suppress the enemy with good effect. How does the suppressed feel - well depends of his own physical + mental conditions, training and what he is supposed to do. Most will tell you that they were seeking for hardcover, keeping their heads down and after a certain time trying to get back the initiative or figuring out how to stop the suppressive fire or how to leave the area. Some may have shaking hands and temporarily deafness until the "surving instinct" kicks in. This certain time of panicking isn't for everyone the same and doesn't depend on the rank/medals/achievements or marksman skills - one recovers fast, the other needs some seconds more and another just needs to be shouted/yelled (or kicked/pushed) at. Of course you cannot train for every situation but you can train to keep this panicking time as short as possible and get back to the mission. Imo good and believable suppressive effects are sound of bullets + impacts + explosions, orders shouted from TL, swearing from teammates and increasing "plings" of bullets/ricochets very close to the player. No need to have the vision stylish blurred, splattered with blood or dirt or even pulsing eyeballs. Let the player get his head or ass down on his own instead of forcing him into a color/camera sfx trip. :)

May teis "trip" should be only start if its moratar fire or heavy machine guns (for example if a mortar hits near you you will loss your consciousness). And if you say every one got another experience of beeing supressed, I need to say BI devs said that also won't have diffreent skills for the soldiers, like one can run faster or shoot better. I think if they add these features they should find a middle way.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

May teis "trip" should be only start if its moratar fire or heavy machine guns

Heavy machine gun fire happens often, you'd cripple the entire enemy squad by this "trip", in addition to killing them with 850 rpm wall of bullets. I see this "psychedelic trip" mechanic as something like: I win if I miss you, I win if I hit you.

(for example if a mortar hits near you you will loss your consciousness).

That's another issue altogether, wounds could be properly simulated, along with loss of consciousness, deafness etc.

[dmarkwick 261]

Heavy machine gun fire happens often, you'd cripple the entire enemy squad by this "trip", in addition to killing them with 850 rpm wall of bullets. I see this "psychedelic trip" mechanic as something like: I win if I miss you, I win if I hit you.

The very essence of suppression :)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

From reference link:

I almost always experience tunnel vision. Whilst under fire I might as well use my binoculars to observe through; my broad vision has disappeared anyway.

Although I highly immerse myself, greatly aided using soundmods, ending up with a fast heart rate and adrenaline rush. But never to the point where I in real life develop tunnel vision. Not even remotely close.

[-Coulum- 35]

I can see why suppression effects are not everyone's cup of tea. I personally would like it. More teamwork and tactics, and better, longer, more realistic firefights. Thats more than convincing enough for me even if its seems a bit "gamey".

This vid actually clearly demonstrates how there is a lack of suppression in arma 2. Look how many enemy those russians took down even while under a shitload of fire. And most of both sides were dead before they got within 100 metres of each other because of it. Despite all the US fire, it only reduced the russian's combat effectiveness by a negligible margin. They must have been fanatical soldiers.

Of course making it an optional feature would be the best option.

Edited August 22, 2012 by -Coulum-