Holo sights, zooming and scope sights

[Psychomorph 1]

Usually I'd say the developer team knows how reflex sights work and the way they were presented in the released footage sofar might be just a placeholder, unfortunately the dots have been painted in the holo sight lense in the previous ArmA releases, too. This might be a small detail, but this is just so wrong.

So hereby I vote for an accurate representation of reflex sights in ArmA3, where you don't see the dot if not looking more or less straight through the holo sight. That includes accurate behavior, namely that if you are moving while aiming, the dot actually moves to the direction the muzzle goes to.

Regarding the zoom, just a little idea, more for aesthetics than function. So if you zoom in ArmA3 (telling from the footage) and the previous games, the weapon stays while the view zooms in, so it is like zooming in a 2D image. To counter this I thought it would be cool that if when you zoom in, the weapon model actually zooms out a tad bit, it goes with the zoom and moves slightly forward away from the view. The sights still would become larger, but not that much, not according to the zoom level. That would give you a bit of a 3D effect, and make the zoom look less mechanical. That way sights would not become oversized, while you are using the highest zoom level. I think that would smoothen the thing a bit.

I don't know if you know what I mean. Perhaps the picture can explain it better. The left picture has the normal, unzoomed view, the centered and the right image have the same zoom level, but in the right picture the weapon model is still further away comapred to the centered image where you zoomed into the weapon just like into the world.

Regarding scopes. It's no secret that the way Red Orchestra implemented the sniper scope is really fine stuff. I kind of hoped to see this in ArmA this time.

[NeuroFunker 11]

im not sure, but it's done that way in arma as it is, in cost for performance.

[griffinz 10]

I remember hearing a lot about this pre-BF3 release...the general consensus was that it requires rendering 2 scenes at once, and creates performance issues.

[Psychomorph 1]

I see that performance could be a problem, especially in ArmA.

[dmarkwick 261]

I remember hearing a lot about this pre-BF3 release...the general consensus was that it requires rendering 2 scenes at once, and creates performance issues.

Well, I should say that realistically, it requires rendering the scene once, but at the increased zoomed in resolution. The scope displays the new resolution, while the outer view displays the new resolution but shrunk to fit. I would expect some LoD issues maybe though.

[dragon01 902]

There are already LOD (and View Distance) issues in AII. This is especially pronounced with vehicle scopes, since they have somewhat bigger zoom. Both LODs and VD should account for zoom in AIII, since as of now, you can hardly snipe with VD below about 4 clicks.

[Angle 10]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?138600-Render-To-Texture-Scopes

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?138600-Render-To-Texture-Scopes

This. There's already a topic on RTT, but good examples nonetheless, OP.

[rye1 21]

In terms of performance, how would it really affect the average Arma player? How low of a drop of fps or what issues would it cause?

LoD issues as mentioned, what else?

[neokika 62]

In terms of performance, how would it really affect the average Arma player? How low of a drop of fps or what issues would it cause?

LoD issues as mentioned, what else?

Judging by TakeOn Helicopters, a loss of at least 20%-30% of performance when having a tiny little landing mirror...

Also, in TakeOn, even on max PIP quality settings, its very bad comparing to the main render scene.

[dmarkwick 261]

In terms of performance, how would it really affect the average Arma player? How low of a drop of fps or what issues would it cause?

LoD issues as mentioned, what else?

Depends on how they would implement it: either render the scene twice, or once at a higher res as I suggested. If the latter, then I should say that the performance drop would scale with the optical zoom level.

[Psychomorph 1]

I wonder if there are tricks and cheats that could be used in order to achieve that scope effect without an impact on performance.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I wonder if there are tricks and cheats that could be used in order to achieve that scope effect without an impact on performance.

If there were, I'm sure many developers in many games would be using it.

[Smurf 12]

If there were, I'm sure many developers in many games would be using it.

... afterall they are using PhysX, don't they?

[Beagle 684]

Those games where you can see a sharp image of the world around the zoomed scope view have nothign to do with reality. Moderen multifocus CCD cameras can do that but two human eyes locatd in a head can not.

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Those games where you can see a sharp image of the world around the zoomed scope view have nothign to do with reality. Moderen multifocus CCD cameras can do that but two human eyes locatd in a head can not. Thats why in our army recruits are trained to close one eye using the G36 scope...if you can't you're told to use some sort of eyepatch.

[Psychomorph 1]

Those games where you can see a sharp image of the world around the zoomed scope view have nothign to do with reality. Moderen multifocus CCD cameras can do that but two human eyes locatd in a head can not. Thats why in our army recruits are trained to close one eye using the G36 scope...if you can't you're told to use some sort of eyepatch.

That's true, but that system is not meant to represent both eyes aiming, but only one where the other is closed. Reason why you'd still see the world outside the scope is because in real life you do. Think about the smaller ACOG scope, you don't shove it down your eye, there is some distance and you are aware of the world outside the scope, you can notice movement and such. Of course, in real life the perception of things depend on what you focus on, if you are focusing on the aiming, you don't look to the side, but if you do look to the side, you are no longer sniping. And of course you can open the other eye and increase awareness while still keeping the rifle and sights stable and motionless. A computer screen can not determine where you are looking and focusing at, you use your own human eyes to decide where you look at. It's not perfect, but a compromise like most things in games and in my opinion more realistic than a black overlay with a circle and zero awareness and actually visually unauthentic (unless you use a scope that completely covers your sight, like that rubber end of the Dragunow scope for instance).

So the scope view with the outside world visible would be a combination of various abilities that are present in real life, the ability to look at and focus at what you want, the ability open the other eye. It would not be 100% realistic, but give you realistic abilities and compensations and one thing I dislike in realistic games more than unrealistic looking things are unrealistic limitations.

[metalcraze 290]

I'm not exactly sure how not giving 10x magnification outside the scope is "unrealistic limitation"

If I focus my eyes on something I don't exactly see atoms.

Modern graphics tech is still in its infancy. Gotta pick the lesser evil when doing compromises.

Edited August 17, 2012 by metalcraze

[Mr. Charles 22]

RTT is way optimized in the GC A3 build. Game ran at about 15-25 fps and i estimate the fps loss at around 5-10 fps.

Measuring tools used: Eyes 1.42

[Foxtrop 10]

Im happy if they just add a blury effect around the scope without duplicating the scene, after all if you look in the scope the world is harder to see if you look the world you dont look at the scope

[Psychomorph 1]

I'm not exactly sure how not giving 10x magnification outside the scope is "unrealistic limitation"

We are talking about unmagnified view outside the scope, only magnified inside the scope.

If we talk about the Battlefield 3 or Crysis way of scopes (entire view magnified, scope model infront), than no thanks, I'd rather prefer a classical black overlay with a circle.

[skulldragon 1]

We are talking about unmagnified view outside the scope, only magnified inside the scope.

If we talk about the Battlefield 3 or Crysis way of scopes (entire view magnified, scope model infront), than no thanks, I'd rather prefer a classical black overlay with a circle.

Got to disagree with you here, though of course I respect your opinion. I find that the overlay method does not feel whatsoever like looking down a scope, whereas the Battlefield 3 or Crysis way, whilst unrealistic in terms of the magnified peripheral vision you gain, feels much more lifelike. A system in which the scope model is large enough to simply block your peripheral vision could offer the best of both, but I'd imagine it would feel like you had the scope absurdly close to your eye, though with physically large scopes this might happen anyway. Of course, RTT would be better still, but of course there's the performance to think about, and I can't see an 'RTT' option being easy to implement.

[MulleDK19 21]

We are talking about unmagnified view outside the scope, only magnified inside the scope.

If we talk about the Battlefield 3 or Crysis way of scopes (entire view magnified, scope model infront), than no thanks, I'd rather prefer a classical black overlay with a circle.

In Hitman: Absolution the entire view is magnified, then the image outside the scope is blurred out.

[froggyluv 2130]

I don't know -personally I find RTT scopes incredibly sexy and just adds another level of immersion and connectiveness with my gun :o If I need to SLI up my video card to run it then so be it.

The inevitable mod will be one of the most celebrated ever and I will do the naked street bull dance!

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Sometimes things look very sexy,but the pleasure can be canceled by bad performance ... the actual scope are easy to use and very obvious and not affected by dirt or humidity effects !

[krazikilla 5]

Isnt it possible to use RTT at scopes, by not losing so much performance, if u just scale down the graphics surrounding the scope and blur it out like hell?

Basicly the view trough scope is like normal graphics and all around is very low?