Steam discussion

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

On the subject of Digital distribution like Steam..... sooner or later the days of paper manuals is going to be numbered

a few years from now people will be telling newer gamers, ya back in the OLD DAYS we had a manual that came in a booklet

and we had fancy thingamajigs called DVD cases with covers!!!..

Books are still around. :) For Steam-style model to take over, there need to be miniaturization of technology, where your content is available anywhere, anytime, and for anytime to happen, Steam needs to be up 24/7 and deliver outstanding server performance. There's not much point to a digital library, which is subject to an outside 3rd party and is out of your control on a stationary PC.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Blackhawk 0]

Not worth it.

The OP lost 500 games just because he wouldn't agree to terms that in time won't ever matter. Some people...

[W0lle 1050]

Steam poses security risk

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Since Steam has become relevant service in our little community, I'll just put a post here to revive this thread and get rid of the naughty warning on the top of the page that might be discouraging you to post here. If you wish to discuss finer points of Steam as a service this is the place to do it.

[Zenith 10]

I can only really see it being a problem if A) you have a very bad internet connection, or B) Valve goes out of business. The former is going to hurt you whether it uses Steam or not, and the latter is extremely unlikely. I used to hate Steam way back in the day, but over the years I have come to appreciate its numerous benefits.

It just seems silly to avoid a fantastic game simply because of the distribution and anti-piracy platform the devs have decided to use, especially one as tried and tested as Steam. Any form of boycott will not change their minds, because you will only be a small minority compared to the thousands upon thousands who will happily use Steam without complaint. Just my opinion of course.

[mrcash2009 0]

Heres the best overall description underpinning this subject:

Centralisation of control.

You can kick it back and forth but it ultimately leads back to this no matter what side your on. Thing of the future, everything is becoming non physical (synthetic) through a login to get to it, games is just another one to get the masses on board, hate to say it but this one micro example in this field spans out to a far wider issue (that's not for this thread clearly).

I see steam as the 'facebook of gaming' :p

The best middle ground (balance is the point) ... are what Sprocket does or Game, etc ... you pay, heres the install data, heres your key, have a nice day. Yes granted you still have the first install DRM shenanigans, but at least somewhere within this you have some control over what you paid for independent per game that you install.

[NoRailgunner 0]

How many projects like WarZ are required to be sold via Steam until people realise that Steam is just running their own business? What about consumer rights and protection of privacy? Guess when playing games becomes an addiction the player himself will cheer up everything about the game and the dealer.... which simply means the better and entertaining the advertisment is the more people will go and buy it. Gamedevs working on a franchise/game series just need to be good at recycling old stuff and mixing it with some "new" features. Steam will just sell the game incl. some hip/trendy apps, gadgets and their customer service -support -leash.

[cuel 25]

I don't really understand your argumentation NoRailGunner. "Projects like WarZ" - do you care to explain further?

WarZ/Hammerpoint was banished from Steam because they lied in the description about the game, anyone who had purchased it was offered a refund.

From time to time a mistake can be made and one was made by prematurely issuing a copy of War Z for sale via Steam. We apologize for this and have temporary removed the sale offering of the title until we have time to work with the developer and have confidence in a new build. Those who purchase the game and wish to continue playing it via Steam may do so. Those who purchased the title via Steam and are unhappy with what they received may seek a refund by creating a ticket at our support site here.

If that's not caring about customers and their rights, what is?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Steam reacted only after a big crowd of customers were upset about the release status of this "game". Saying that a mistake can happen and refunding is just usual business if sh*t hits the fan. Now it seems WarZ is back up again @Steam with a rewritten description but missing it's status aka alpha/beta or final. Sorry but carrying about customers and their rights is not only done afterwards - it should be done before a game is public available for sale.

[eye-tac 10]

Really what is stopping BI from having it off their website like the rest of the Arma series?

[cuel 25]

Steam reacted only after a big crowd of customers were upset about the release status of this "game". Saying that a mistake can happen and refunding is just usual business if sh*t hits the fan. Now it seems WarZ is back up again @Steam with a rewritten description but missing it's status aka alpha/beta or final. Sorry but carrying about customers and their rights is not only done afterwards - it should be done before a game is public available for sale.

It's status, you're aware that when it was first available that was considered a final release (by the Hammerpoint devs)?

You can not demand that Valve thoroughly tests every game that get puts on the sale site in order to see if it meets the entire description, that's very unrealistic considering the amount of games that gets added per week.

Yeah just "usual business", completely ignoring the fact that they actually did something and instead point out that it should be done before it even happens. Be a little more realistic.

[celery 8]

Almost all EULAs ≈ Steam's EULA

It's a way for companies to protect themselves against consumers taking them to court over every little thing that they can find. Suing them for insane amounts over small details.

I've explained this bit to them, but I get a very sneaking impression, that some just recently came out of the woodworks of OFP, which is a good thing, but they came out of offline SP into a world of interconnectedness. :cool:

Something I wrote earlier that somewhat touches the subject:

Here is a 101 on the practical differences of ownership as it's sometimes understood in the digital vs. physical context, in case you might have missed them:

Digital distribution

• Binds itself into a corporate account that wants you to be online
  
• You can't resell or give away anything you "buy"
  
• You can use "your" game only because the distributor hasn't yet decided otherwise
  
• The distributor is fully within its rights to disable your account or "your" games at its discretion
  
• The consumer rights (or rather the waiving thereof) are written solely by and for the benefit of the digital distributor
  
• All of the above is true simply because the distributor has the means to enforce it
  

Physical non-bound copy

• You can install the game onto any compatible system as long as the media (or its backups) doesn't get damaged
  
• It normally doesn't matter whether you're online or offline when you install and/or start the game
  
• You can resell or give away your copy to anyone you please
  
• The normal laws of your country apply to your game
  
• All of the above is true simply because extrajudicial corporate enforcement of rules better suited for their profit is impossible on this medium
  

From these differences we can deduce that yes, you own the physical media and the license within which is transferable whereas the digital download's license is not really yours and is nontransferable because the distributor likes it better that way instead of respecting your consumer rights. And let's not forget that according to European laws, the former case should be true for all copies, not just physical, so Steam's policy is illegal.

Your claim that almost all EULAs give the provider of the product basically unlimited power over a copy/license and everything you've purchased from them even after the transaction is finished is blatantly false. Even in the case of such EULAs existing, they are not lawful in Europe.

You use an Apple or Google product? I'm sure you will find several "unethical" phrases that you have to agree with.

Funnily enough, I don't use Apple or Google products (physical and/or paid). Is that somehow relevant in justifying a consumer's ever-diminishing rights? So if Apple and Google are used to screwing their customers if something goes wrong on either side, it's universally okay for others to follow suit? Or would the follow-up have been "well you agreed to those terms so the joke's on you", truly a massive validator of all questionable policies and practices in a captive market?

Exactly. Your loss because of a choice you're making. Either move on or get over it. I'm sure Bohemia Interactive's decision to distribute with Steam is set in stone.

What I was trying to convey ever so delicately was that if someone had a problem with having Arma on Steam for any reason at all, the only other choice wasn't to not buy Arma at all: there were several different other ways you could get Arma and everything was okay. Now if someone has a problem with having Arma on Steam for any reason at all, not buying is the only other choice, and that is the problem! Presenting the obvious original problem of the case as the "answer" is an incredibly ignorant thing to do.

A citation would be nice.

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/game/3423715/valve-sued-in-germany-over-game-ownership/

Don't worry about me, worry about your own sanity, as you reach Stage 4 of the Kübler-Ross model and eventually find yourself playing ArmA III on Steam.

Yes, isn't it lovely that I made you aware of a digital distributor that is not Steam and doesn't share Steam's draconian terms of service?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Celery

[NoRailgunner 0]

cuel maybe you just don't know how or even care about consumer rights and how usual business is done if something is wrong or wrongly advertised/promoted and sold? Be a little less naive and forgiving. Or are you just one of those gamers who puts a blind eye on everything as long as they can get their "fix" ( = games) as fast and cheap as possible? What would be the big deal for people getting a game without any kind of an leash? Just because some companies are trying to get control over their customers buying behaviour doesn't mean that customers have to auto-agree to everything, keep calm and play things down.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

cuel maybe you just don't know how or even care about consumer rights and how usual business is done if something is wrong or wrongly advertised/promoted and sold? Be a little less naive and forgiving. Or are you just one of those gamers who puts a blind eye on everything as long as they can get their "fix" ( = games) as fast and cheap as possible? What would be the big deal for people getting a game without any kind of an leash? Just because some companies are trying to get control over their customers buying behaviour doesn't mean that customers have to auto-agree to everything, keep calm and play things down.

Ah, yes, consumer rights. That's code speak for blame someone else for a product you don't like when you could have simply done a little research before you opened up your wallet.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

Your comment doesn't makes sense because the people doing exactly that. Doing research before opening their wallet.

[Flash Thunder 10]

I was astounded to find that when you press alt-f4 during the steam license user agreement you will revert to the pre EU regulation agreement.

Problem Steam and community? :trollface:

[Tuliq 2]

Got 94 games on steam. Couldn't be happier with their service. I have seriously had 0 problems with it. (Except for the occasional hiccup with patching, but that has been a couple of years since now.) Looking forward to adding A3 next! ;)

[mrcash2009 0]

Got 94 games on steam. Couldn't be happier with their service. I have seriously had 0 problems with it. (Except for the occasional hiccup with patching, but that has been a couple of years since now.) Looking forward to adding A3 next! ;)

Well this thread isnt really much about its day to day operation use, more about the red tape, policy and the rights of the ownership and user rights more than anything. IE the OFP probably was running nicely with it until things changed and you dont agree with something, then things show true colors and the reality of the situation.

Much like rats in a maze everything is great until you make the wrong choice, even if that choice is valid, then reality kicks in about all of this :)

[ziiip 1]

The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software. To make use of the Software, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

So what? I dont see how this affects anyone (i mean aside from feeling psychologically butthurt).

[celery 8]

So what? I dont see how this affects anyone (i mean aside from feeling psychologically butthurt).

Person who is able to buy new games because he resells them buys a game that happens to be a Steamworks game. For obvious reasons he can't sell the game, and thus he can't afford the next new game. Then he gets the bright idea to give his Steam account to a friend, and the friend's main account that includes dozens of games gets suspended because Steam noticed that both accounts are suddenly operated from the same IP.

See anything yet?

[nettrucker 142]

Person who is able to buy new games because he resells them buys a game that happens to be a Steamworks game. For obvious reasons he can't sell the game, and thus he can't afford the next new game. Then he gets the bright idea to give his Steam account to a friend, and the friend's main account that includes dozens of games gets suspended because Steam noticed that both accounts are suddenly operated from the same IP.

See anything yet?

It's useless Celery. Don't argue with steam users they simply do not understand. Whatever valid reason we can come up with. They won't understand this. So we are wasting our time here, you will never convince them to the contrary unless they gonna have problems to play ArmA 3. Only then the whining is going to start. Since most of the steam users don't have any problems that's good for them . . . some had problems in the past. So just sit back and chill . . . make sure to have a good supply of popcorn in case the shitstorm starts. :)

[TSAndrey 1]

Person who is able to buy new games because he resells them buys a game that happens to be a Steamworks game. For obvious reasons he can't sell the game, and thus he can't afford the next new game. Then he gets the bright idea to give his Steam account to a friend, and the friend's main account that includes dozens of games gets suspended because Steam noticed that both accounts are suddenly operated from the same IP.

See anything yet?

You really think Steam would ban your account, because 2 accounts logged in from the same IP/PC?

[celery 8]

You really think Steam would ban your account, because 2 accounts logged in from the same IP/PC?

Suspended Steam Account - Why would a Steam account get suspended?

[Alexei Guba 10]

LOL

No, Steam really isn't that bad. Really not. No, never.

"Do not use Steam accounts which you did not create."

So, if I move 600 kilometers north and login with a complete different IP they may think already I shared the account with someone - BANG! No more Steam for you for days or even weeks until you convinced them that it's really you.

Another example:

I buy a game on Steam, yet they fail to add it to my account. Talking with Support doesn't solve the problem because they say it's my fault (and it's always the customers fault). So I decide to reclaim the money from Paypal which is my right to do so - BANG! No more access to any of my other games I bought, no wait I rent them actually.

But wait, soon a Steam fanboy comes and tells us that this is never going to happen. Never! Because Steam isn't that bad, right?

I really wonder if anyone at BI ever had checked those illegal conditions before decided to force their fans into this. Probably not or they were not able to read because all the Dollar signs in their eyes. Or more possible: they just don't fucking care.

Edited February 28, 2013 by AlekseiGuba

[mrcash2009 0]

The audio that fits this threads underlying point ...

http://youtu.be/lmI5zL9ZqDs?t=33s

If you look at what they set out in terms of customers rights and so on for online purchases, and they did this as a local shop in your own high street, can you imagine the amount of great feedback they would get? The difference is perfect, faceless ... thats why the net is pushed so much for this type of distant arms length transaction process. And to think this is just games, but one area, and more and more it all goes online.

Edited February 28, 2013 by mrcash2009