Valve declares WIndows 8 "a catastrophe for PC", talks about migrating games to Linux

[orcinus 121]

http://www.slashgear.com/gabe-newell-of-valve-windows-8-a-catastrophe-25240280/

http://www.zdnet.com/valve-windows-8-is-a-catastrophe-for-pcs-7000001634/

Apparently already started working on migrating some games to Linux.

Primary issue is the apparently mandatory (at least in some W8 versions) inclusion of a Windows Store 'monopoly', for sales via which M$ will rip off 30% of the purchase price.

I think that could fall foul of EU competition laws, though fortunately I am I am not a lawyer,

[hellfire257 3]

When I first saw a screenshot of Win8, my first thought was "WTF!?"

[Tonci87 163]

mine too. I'm sure that win8 would be a good OS for mobile devices but I can't imagine working with it. Win7 introfduced some very nive features that made it more productive (imho the best OS to date) and now comes this...

I guess M$ just see this as a way to make more cash by placing their store app and similiar stzff right on your new Desktop.

[Rak 0]

Windows 8 is not so different from 7. If anything, Windows 8 runs a lot better than Windows 7. Yes the new start screen is weird for non-tablet PC's, but you spent most of your time in desktop anyway. How many times do you guys use the start menu during the day?

Gabe's problem with Windows is that it's taking a more controlling approach to how PC applications are distributed with the "Windows Store". They even "closed" the ARM version of Windows 8 so that you can only install apps from Windows store. It's a threat for Valve's Steam business, and they do not like it.

[celery 8]

Gabe's problem with Windows is that it's taking a more controlling approach to how PC applications are distributed with the "Windows Store". They even "closed" the ARM version of Windows 8 so that you can only install apps from Windows store. It's a threat for Valve's Steam business, and they do not like it.

It's a threat to users, too, mind.

[Tonci87 163]

wait,does that mean that I wont be able to install any programm I want? Like steam

[valnwt 11]

wait,does that mean that I wont be able to install any programm I want? Like steam

Yes you can when using Win 8 Pro, Win RT (if i remembered it correctly) will run only on ARM architecture.

As i see it Win RT is like a free base OS for tablets and Win 8 Pro is what you'll be able to buy and upgrade your current XP,Vista,7.

Edited July 26, 2012 by DanielV

[batto 17]

wait,does that mean that I wont be able to install any programm I want? Like steam

Probably only on ARM version (currently probably phones, tablets, ...). MS will not allow 3rd party applications on W8 ARM to use Win32 API (functions that all Windows applications use), only new RT API or whatever it's called which lacks some functions like memory mapping, ... things that Firefox developers say are necessary to create fast JavaScript compiler besides other uses (like ArmA ;-)). Of course IE and other programs from MS will have full access to Win32 API. For more info google: firefox windows 8 arm.

Another thing is that these devices will have new UEFI secure boot which will not allow unsigned OS too boot. The question is who will sign OS and hence who will hold private keys? In case of "Windows 8 certified" ARM devices, MS will require ARM device manufacturers to not allow users to disable this secure boot and of course MS will hold those keys. More info here: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org. You may say that it's not standard to install custom OS tablets and phones. But there are already some ARM notebooks and there'll be more in future. And as usual, you'll not be able to buy it without Windows.

I hope other companies (*cough* BIS *cough) will follow Valve soon.

[Tonci87 163]

Ok that's it, I'll skip win8 I guess I'll get a key via my university but I won't install it. To me it seems as if MS tries to turn PC's into "consoles"

I won't support this.

[dmarkwick 261]

*shrug* I usually skip two or three Windows versions anyway.

[orcinus 121]

*shrug* I usually skip two or three Windows versions anyway.

Me too. Looked at Vista & hated it. Tried W7 Home premium 64 & hated that as well, if not more.

M$ apparently seeking to compel users to purchase via their store, irrespective of in which or in how many versions of W8, just means it will never be in my buy list. I hope the EC competition commission jumps all over them (again :)

[-GR-Operative 10]

Rembember people, when talking about windows: one good, one bad, one good, one bad...

If I remember correctly XP was good, Vista was bad, 7 was (is) good, then comes 8...

[orcinus 121]

More like one-in-three IMO. E.g., Win 98 OK, ME not, Millennium a disaster.

[-GR-Operative 10]

Well, the pattern just needs to match and say that 8 is garbage to let me happy haha

[[frl]myke 14]

Erm, lads, topic title contains "Windows 8" and "Valve" to pick up the core topic. I see discussion about Windows but nothing about Valve and the original post. ;)

So please, back to topic, can we? :D

I think if Valve will port their product portfolio to Linux, this OS might receive a significant boost which might also draw the attention of other game developers. Might end up pretty interesting.

[JdB 151]

Myke;2195717']I think if Valve will port their product portfolio to Linux' date=' this OS might receive a significant boost which might also draw the attention of other game developers. Might end up pretty interesting.[/quote']

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. It might if they made their games Windows ONLY, but not if they offer versions for Windows as well. The number of Windows 8 users through the sales of new computers (OEM) alone is expected to go over 300 million the first year after release. 95% of all people won't even know that there is an alternative to Windows, or won't have the technical knowledge to even install them (even though installing Ubuntu is just as easy as installing Windows imo). They will have Windows 8 to play games on, and Valve as a commercial entity will make products for the biggest customer base. Also three things that prevent me from switching to Linux completely are:

- Games hardly ever natively support it, partially due to DirectX requirement;

- Tricky to get some Windows applications to run for novice users, if at all;

- Filesharing with PCs running Windows;

That will only really be resolved if developers start to release Linux versions of their products. If Valve were to start doing it, it might provide a significant boost, though I am not expecting it to effectively make Linux replace Windows as the dominant OS, an increase in market share for Linux distros of let's say even 10% would be a unrealistic imo. For that you would need to break the power of the major manufacturers and crack-down on their deals with MS to provide new products with OEM versions of Windows. I find it odd that for example the European Commission did rule that installing Internet Explorer by default on every PC is forcing other products out of the market, but that the forced purchase of Windows with every new PC that is not home-built is somehow not an unfair business practice ... :confused:

Once people have a free choice between OS's when they go to buy a new system and they see that a basic PC running Linux is 15% cheaper and can run all of their favorite programs, they will choose Linux no doubt.

Valve can be a big factor in alternatives to Windows, but imo it remains to be seen whether they'll actually go through with this, and if so for what percentage of their new titles, or whether MS will "persuade" them to stay away from anything not Windows.

[NeMeSiS 11]

(even though installing Ubuntu is just as easy as installing Windows imo).

Seeing as most PC users (even of 'our' generation) still think PCs are magic and installing windows seems to hard, ths isnt even a counterargument. ;)

[reconteam 19]

Windows 7 is the new XP. It won't be going anywhere for a long time. Windows 8 in its current form seems to be destined to failure.

I had Windows Vista SP2 when I first got my current (since upgraded several times) gaming computer. Honestly I did not have many problems with it once I got used to the interface. Windows 7 in my experience has largely been "product improved Vista".

[sickboy 13]

mine too. I'm sure that win8 would be a good OS for mobile devices but I can't imagine working with it. Win7 introfduced some very nive features that made it more productive (imho the best OS to date) and now comes this...

I guess M$ just see this as a way to make more cash by placing their store app and similiar stzff right on your new Desktop.

All that made Win7 great is still available in Win8. My suggestion would be to put preconceptions and other people's opinions (/pre-conceptions) aside, and try out an evaluation version of Windows 8, e.g Release Preview, or once RTM, and make up your own mind.

Easiest and least intrusive is by trying it in a Virtual Machine.

There are a lot of positive aspects to Window 8 as well, it isn't all about Metro, and Metro Start-Screen isn't that bad even when you're mostly using the Desktop.

---------- Post added at 10:53 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ----------

Ok that's it, I'll skip win8 I guess I'll get a key via my university but I won't install it. To me it seems as if MS tries to turn PC's into "consoles"

I won't support this.

Windows RT (for ARM) is of no concern to us PC users.

It is like Windows Mobile, Windows Phone, iOS, etc, intented for limited Tablets (and probably also forms the basis for Windows Phone 8).

Similar approaches are consoles like PS3 or XBOX360.

Such limitations are pretty standard these days, apart from maybe Android, and whatever Gabe claims, there are also good reasons why to do this.

Windows 8 (for PC) itself has no such limits, and there are also high-end (Intel/AMD based) tablets that will not use Windows RT, but Windows 8.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

It's also kinda hypocrite for one (sort-of) Monopolist (Steam) to complain about another (Microsoft).

IMO this stunt has another side; creating an even larger monopoly position for Steam :) Think about it...

Edited July 27, 2012 by Sickboy

[Tonci87 163]

I did try win 8 on my VM and I really see no reason to upgrade. And the new UI wasn't really helpfull at all.

[valnwt 11]

Having win 8 and steam on my laptop, its the same amount of effort to start a program in win 8 as in win 7 since you can pin programs as steam in metro. Dont really understand what fuz is about, it looks and works great. Plus the price is more acceptable than ever before.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

Question: How does this really effect valve(steam)? Since it'll work exactly like before.

[Rak 0]

Question: How does this really effect valve(steam)? Since it'll work exactly like before.

Windows store, they're closing the system. Microsoft gets a 30 percent cut form software sold through it's store. It's about the changes to the PC economy, not because Windows itself is such a bad OS.

[sickboy 13]

Windows store, they're closing the system. Microsoft gets a 30 percent cut form software sold through it's store. It's about the changes to the PC economy, not because Windows itself is such a bad OS.

Only Windows RT and Phone have the Windows Store-only requirement,

for now there are no indications whatsoever that the same will happen to Windows 8, nor do I personally expect it to.

The issue Gabe seems to have with things is that MS as Monopolist has a Store available on Windows 8 out of the box, giving them an advantage position,

and by that Microsoft will be able to control Margins, and thus push competitors out of the market.

Also he thinks that some top-tier PC/OEMs will exit the market, but personally im not sure if that's the case, why, and how that affects things specifically.

[PELHAM 10]

I find it strange how manufacturers and retailers attempt to sell people things they don't want. I've always found apple products restrictive and over priced and the attempt to control how you use them after you have purchased them seems authoritarian and bizarre. Shame Windows is attempting the same tactics, my advice, don't be a fashion victim and stop buying the stuff, they will soon learn. As for Valve showing an interest in Linux - BRAVO! I switched years ago and only bought windows 7 for gaming reasons as XP didn't play well with the latest hardware - the rest of it doesn't interest me as Linux these days is far more user friendly in most areas.

BIS please consider a Linux product line in future, it will open markets in Asia and Africa where many don't even consider buying windows any more.

[Kindling 1]

One of the best things about Linux is that you can make it look and function however you want. Want a Windows-style interface? Sure, a powerful computer will run KDE but even the cheapest OEM machine will happily run LXDE. Looking for that Mac OSX style sleekness? Try GNOME or Unity. Something functional that won't get in your way? Openbox or WMFS2. It can actually be pretty easy to be overwhelmed by the amount of choices, but you can just choose one application for each purpose and stick with it, or you can experiment until you find something that works well for your personal activities.

You have access to pretty much all the software you'll use already - if it doesn't have a native Linux version, it most likely runs through WINE. If not, there'll be a good alternative out there - don't worry about skimming forums and websites, sifting through spam as you look for software - most distros (such as Linux Mint or Ubuntu have package managers behind their 'app stores' - Linux was the first OS to use an app store equivalent (repositories). Most modern distros also sign all their packages with security keys, so you know you're getting legitimate packages. That's not to say that you can't find Linux software elsewhere - if you don't find what you need from the selection of 40k-odd repository packages, you can use 3rd party repositories (think of them as custom app stores) with systems like Ubuntu's PPAs or simply download your software from the provider's website the old fashioned way.

I use Linux exclusively and haven't found any reason to go to Windows. Games will usually work via WINE - if not on release, soon after. General use such as web browsing, organizing photos and editing documents is easy and (usually) faster than Windows.

The only real gripe I have is driver support - though this has improved substantially in the last few years (almost everything is 'plug-in-and-play' save perhaps a few printers and wireless cards), graphics drivers still have some ways to go. It's entirely possible that you'll have small glitches, especially with complex setups such as Eyefinity or NVIDIA surround. Further, as a user of a Linux system you will likely have to do some troubleshooting once in a while - it's no harder than doing the same for Windows (in Windows you need to do regular cleanups or reinstalls), it's just different enough that it will be a fairly new experience.

The great thing about Linux CDs, DVDs and USB images (that you can download ISOs for from my 'Ubuntu' and 'Linux Mint' links above) is that you can boot to them without making any change to your computer. Until you choose to 'Install', you'll be running Linux from the CD/USB/DVD - a lot slower than running from your HDD, but it'll give you some idea as to how it all works before you make the switch. Not that you have to switch at all! You can always install alongside Windows or Mac OSX.

Of course, this is just the 'introduction' - there are so many more features, distributions and techniques. By all means have a look at DistroWatch to get an idea on public Linux user opinion of distros via rankings. Everything is going to improve on the gaming side as Valve adopts Linux as it's choice OS. :)

Now we've got that out, I think that GabeN is rightfully cautious about Windows Live and Secure Boot. Secure Boot means that distro packagers will need to buy keys from Microsoft's choice of signing company (VeriSign, if I remember correctly) if they want people to be able to install their non-Windows OS. It's currently a token price of $99, but who knows what it could change to? $999? $9999? Not only that, but the user will have to go through a convulted process to install the signing key or disable 'Secure Boot'. Try imagining guiding a novice through disabling a feature called 'Secure Boot', what are they going to think? Obviously that you are trying to make their system 'less secure'.

The good news is that this is only absolutely mandatory for Windows ARM systems (phones, tablets, netbooks) and not for x86 (desktops and laptops). The bad news is that there is no specific clause saying that the OEMs need to provide an option to disable Secure Boot. Frankly, it seems like Microsoft are attempting to deligitimize the 'alternative OS' market. This also makes it impossible for people to create their own Linux distros that work with Secure Boot - one of the core ethos' of many Linux distros is the ability for users to repackage, alter and rewrite as they see fit. This is no longer possible, with all install media requiring it's own key.

Of course, this only applies to OEM systems - Dell, HP, other such manufacturers. There will be no such system (hopefully) for hardware sold seperately such as a motherboard you would buy as part of a PC build - or at least such a system would be an easy to disable UEFI/BIOS option and off by default. This may change, though - especially if the users accept Microsoft's terms by buying their products.

In essence, Microsoft are likely taking the opportunity (when Europe is too distracted to sue for the anti-competitive behaviour) to force these almost DRM-like measures to corner the PC, smartphone and tablet markets in the same way as Apple (or perhaps even worse, when you look at it) by locking the user out of a responsible role. Soon you'll be needing to jailbreak your Dell and HP PCs, I think.