Valve declares WIndows 8 "a catastrophe for PC", talks about migrating games to Linux

[sickboy 13]

Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 share the same underlying kernel/OS, but each are tailored towards the specific use cases of Desktop/Tablet vs Phone.

IMO it's only logical that MS will do this with the XBOX too, and the choice is IMO a good one for both phone and XBOX.

AFAIK they already started putting all their interfaces in line (metro) a while ago, incl XBOX.

I'm not too sure about game interexchangeability and such, x86 and ARM etc are not interexchangeable and the new XBOX again running on x86 hardware would be somewhat doubtful. Of course there could be some good cross compilation support etc, but still.

Regarding suffering of sales in different areas, or the landscape changing;

that seems logical result of progress, an example of such event I think could be apple Iphone and Ipad, maybe to some extent Steam (digital distro), and there are probably countless more.

Life changes, people and companies need to deal with that ;-)

[NielsS 10]

This MSFT OS on a next-gen console can take down the remaining competition for home entertainment for Joe & Jane 6-pack: HTPCs, PC sales would suffer, if you could watch the latest movies on BluRay, suft the web and run all the latest MMOs on the XBOX 720, provided you buy a separate keyboard, and I'm sure a lot of dedicated people will do exactly that.

But that's wat MSFT wants! They don't want u to game on the PC but on the XBOX.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

But that's wat MSFT wants! They don't want u to game on the PC but on the XBOX.

Yes, they will pocket a premium on their proprietary hardware, but I think it is a win for PC as well: XBOX Live is already running on Nokia Lumia 900 Win 7.5 (Soon to be Win 8/RT) and it is a game store just like the Android's Market. Now this BOX service (Pandora's box for VALVe's steam & EA's Origin ) is already on tablets/smartphones, the XBOX360 console and integrating it on PC via the new OS shouldn't be a problem - this service will become to be associated with digital game dispersal service and not the XBOX console itself.

Why would PC gamers use it? Well, if the new XBOX does have Windows 8 and the new games will be playable on the PC, then MSFT could make Windows 8 a prerequisite for that. XBOX+PC also means a second revenue stream if a developer is creating a game for XBOX720, which is also compatible with desktops. If that is indeed MSFTs vision, then they can undercut Steam by sheer volume of games that they could be selling. Needless to say, you won't be seeing Source games on XBOX live.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Regarding suffering of sales in different areas, or the landscape changing;

that seems logical result of progress, an example of such event I think could be apple Iphone and Ipad, maybe to some extent Steam (digital distro), and there are probably countless more.

Life changes, people and companies need to deal with that ;-)

Windows 8 is an unproductive POS on the desktop, though it does have its uses: the new screens, designed specifically for tablets blow away any laptop screen away - they are practically indestructible, offering almost 180 degrees viewing angles, full colour sRGB gamut, brightness, contrast unmatched and touch precision that could only be achieved on the most expensive Wacom designer tablets.

http://gadgetronica.com/news/intel-plans-to-launch-haswell-chip-for-ultrabooks/

Intel has the right idea for the future and I do agree with them. It would be great to have an un-dockable keyboard on a touchscreen laptop, or at least a one which you could rotate 180 degrees and collapse, then use the laptop as a tablet. Lenovo's x230T comes to mind,

The screen is IPS, but low res, it has Wacom emulation touchscreen, which sucks for corner/border precision and there is a noticeable lag. :)

P.S. Looky what I found - an Asus Transformer with Windows 8 (RT/Tegra 3) -

I'll take one with Windows 8 Pro on an Intel i3, s'il vous plait. :cool:

Edited August 11, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Baff1 0]

I'll have a £50 job with Android on it myself.

So I can play Angry Birds etc.

[MrBump 10]

Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 share the same underlying kernel/OS, but each are tailored towards the specific use cases of Desktop/Tablet vs Phone.

IMO it's only logical that MS will do this with the XBOX too, and the choice is IMO a good one for both phone and XBOX.

AFAIK they already started putting all their interfaces in line (metro) a while ago, incl XBOX.

Well to me it's only logical if the reasons/issues that made MS develop a specialised OS for their consoles in the first place are no longer there, making the kernal the same is nice, esp for devs, but doesn't magically make engineer's problems go away...

Regarding Windows Phone I remember reading that NT actually runs faster than CE on modern, powerful mobile hardware due to how those OS's were tailored, so the swap made perfect sense. I would really doubt the same regarding xbox OS vs NT as the xbox OS was specifically designed with these issues in mind.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well to me it's only logical if the reasons/issues that made MS develop a specialised OS for their consoles in the first place are no longer there, making the kernal the same is nice, esp for devs, but doesn't magically make engineer's problems go away...

They tried to copy Sony with their first iteration of the XBOX and failed miserably. Specialised OS for Microsoft doesn't make sense, when they could double the market for everyone and increase their monopoly. Linking console and PC after XBOX360 has become such a (relatively) successful derpbox is ingenious.

Engineering issues is solely Microsoft's problem - they provide the hardware that will create a semi-closed system, over which they can exert control.

[MrBump 10]

They tried to copy Sony with their first iteration of the XBOX and failed miserably. Specialised OS for Microsoft doesn't make sense, when they could double the market for everyone and increase their monopoly. Linking console and PC after XBOX360 has become such a (relatively) successful derpbox is ingenious.

Engineering issues is solely Microsoft's problem - they provide the hardware that will create a semi-closed system, over which they can exert control.

If it failed miserably because of a custom OS then explain the 360's success? Consoles are extremely expensive to produce, in console-land performance is money, and having a OS that is able to squeeze every bit of performance from hardware is and has always been the key.

MS strategy for the xbox is to get one into every household as a primary entertainment hub, having the PC as an auxiliary system works against this idea. It would also be a marketing/branding disaster for MS, these companies spend big to control their brands, suddenly the xbox gets confused with Windows in peoples minds? Also you have the classic PC vs console issue of fixed spec vs variable spec, if MS do this then one of the key benefits of consoles is gone (and one of he key reason for devs to support it too) especially when you consider the tight integration with Kinnect 2.

One thing MS has learned (from Apple) is that creating and controlling hardware is the key to creating a solid ecosystem and brand for your platform, for MS to lose this seems crazy. You could be totally correct of course, if so I think this would be a monumental gamble on MS's part and would be very interesting to watch.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

If it failed miserably because of a custom OS then explain the 360's success?

Easy: Microsoft payed off major publishers.

MS strategy for the xbox is to get one into every household as a primary entertainment hub, having the PC as an auxiliary system works against this idea. It would also be a marketing/branding disaster for MS

How so? MSFT doesn't manufacture any hardware in terms of PC components, they couldn't care less for PC gaming. Optimum profit realised would be to introduce XBOX 720 with Windows 8, lock down its hardware to proprietary standards of upgrade-ability, then include XBOX Live integration into PC version of Windows 8 and dispense games & entertainment through this service.

Sony's business model is unique - they are in a position to dictate to their Japanese developers and publishers, as Sony is the pride & joy of Japan.

Microsoft will undercut everyone and anything in terms of volume.

[MrBump 10]

Easy: Microsoft payed off major publishers.

The original xbox failed for a number of reasons, restrictive contracts with their own hardware suppliers that stopped cost cutting revisions, lack of exclusives, timing etc, none had anything to do with the OS they designed. That's why they changed everything BUT the OS.

How so? MSFT doesn't manufacture any hardware in terms of PC components, they couldn't care less for PC gaming. Optimum profit realised would be to introduce XBOX 720 with Windows 8, lock down its hardware to proprietary standards of upgrade-ability, then include XBOX Live integration into PC version of Windows 8 and dispense games & entertainment through this service.

Again it would just pollute the market and the brand to do so, MS has built the xbox brand into a success by doing what they're doing, to change any of that would be suicidal.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Again it would just pollute the market and the brand to do so, MS has built the xbox brand into a success by doing what they're doing, to change any of that would be suicidal.

You're missing the part where the nexus of the platform would be called XBOX Live, not Windows Live. Tower desktop PCs are being phased out, derpbox is on the rise, and if Microsoft gives them full Internet utility to play MMOs and chat on Skype, which is owned by MSFT, then that would strengthen the "XBOX" brand even more.

[-martin- 10]

How many times do you guys use the start menu during the day?

Seriously? :eek: Like 1000000000, that's where I find most of my applications. I only got the ones that I use the most pined to the task bar or on the desktop. What if I need something that I don’t use every day? Just click the start button, type in the name and done! That’s one of the main features that made windows Vista/7 more productive than any Windows version before.

[sthalik 10]

Guys,

UNIX GUI is a joke from the technical standpoint.

The very idea of doing GUI in userland (the X11 server) is horrible. The only reason why games work well on UNIX is because the GLX 'hack' lets the game talk directly to the kernel. But for the rest of applications it's more like...

application -> kernel (system call) -> x11 (userland) -> kernel (system call) -> application.

While in Windows...

application -> kernel -> application.

Edit: Don't forget about copyin/copyout that happens, not just SYSCALL overhead. Also don't forget about scheduling issues for the x server.

So if you wonder why a glorified terminal emulator, web browser, or an office program works as badly as it does on UNIX, remember the godawful X11 architecture. Especially on non-top-of-the-line hardware.

Two cents from someone who never will write any GUI application for UNIX, except for those that port straight from Windows, using some compatibility layer.

[PELHAM 10]

Guys,

UNIX GUI is a joke from the technical standpoint.

True it is getting old and bloated and that's why there is a replacement for 2013 (hopefully):

Wayland

What is Wayland?

Wayland is a new protocol that enables 3D compositors to be used as primary display servers, instead of running the 3D compositor as an extension under the (2D) X.org display server.

Or, in layman's terms, it assumes you're using a 3D desktop from the start, instead of bolting on 3D capabilities to an 2D framework.

http://wayland.freedesktop.org/

Regarding everyday PC use, browsing, Office, email and DTP - the Linux experience is faster and far superior to windows - I use both every day, no problems at all. The only problem I ever had with a browser was a problem with a Firefox extension that caused flash to crash. Once disabled it was fine.

Edited August 12, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

@sthalik: I assume you just read some comparison of Wayland and X11. From technical technical standpoint you're full of BS. Programmers of userspace don't give a flying f*ck because they use library functions and the overhead from talking to X server is minimal.

The very idea of doing GUI in userland (the X11 server) is horrible.

X server doesn't do GUI.

[sthalik 10]

> I assume you just read some comparison of Wayland and X11

No. I heard it from a MSFT dude on EFNet years ago, and validated it against my own knowledge.

> X server doesn't do GUI.

It displays it on a physical or virtual device. Poorly.

It's better now, because of multicore CPUs. It was way worse when UP was standard. Waiting for Xorg getting its 'tick' was getting it latency. Not that clicking buttons was slow, but dragging windows, scrolling with the middle mouse button, etc.

> Programmers of userspace don't give a flying f*ck because they use library functions and the overhead from talking to X server is minimal.

Just because you got the MIT-SHM extension it doesn't magically get better. X11 sucks, and always will.

[batto 17]

It displays it on a physical or virtual device. Poorly.

It's better now, because of multicore CPUs. It was way worse when UP was standard. Waiting for Xorg getting its 'tick' was getting it latency. Not that clicking buttons was slow, but dragging windows, scrolling with the middle mouse button, etc.

I'm using it 8 years and I _never_ had such performance problems with X server. Have you ever tried it or are you just making it up?

So accroding to you Windows users shouldn't run Winamp when dragging windows or scrolling in Firefox because those extra context switches from Winamp would create noticeable latencies?

Just because you got the MIT-SHM extension it doesn't magically get better. X11 sucks, and always will.

Yeah, whatever. The rest of the world will keep not giving a damn.

[sthalik 10]

> I'm using it 8 years and I _never_ had such performance problems with X server. Have you ever tried it or are you just making it up?

I used X11 on a Celeron 400MHz for a few years. Sad, tragic experience. Believe it was FreeBSD 6.x.

> All 10 Linux users will keep not giving a damn.

Fix'd

[PELHAM 10]

I used X11 on a Celeron 400MHz for a few years. Sad, tragic experience. Believe it was FreeBSD 6.x.

You ran FreeBSD 6.x on a tonker toy slot1/370 PC from 1999, did it have an AGP?, 64mb of RAM?, no doubt a 56k modem? and complain about the linux experience and somehow relate that to the situation that exists today? Doesn't compute with me at all?

Edited August 13, 2012 by PELHAM

[sthalik 10]

No. FreeBSD 6.x is/was fairly recent. 2005 or so. With a GeForce 6200 for accelerated 2D to boot. Oh, and a cable modem. So please don't write long-winded insults and rants only to be rendered invalid, as based on a flawed premise.

Oh, and I remember how my first PC, Cyrix 166+MMX with whoppin' 32 MB of RAM, S3 Virge 4 MB was fairly good at RedHat 6.0, running on some 2.2 kernel. Perhaps all the components are getting bloated with time. GTK and so on.

[PELHAM 10]

No. FreeBSD 6.x is/was fairly recent. 2005 or so. With a GeForce 6200 for accelerated 2D to boot. Oh, and a cable modem. So please don't write long-winded insults and rants only to be rendered invalid, as based on a flawed premise.

Oh, and I remember how my first PC, Cyrix 166+MMX with whoppin' 32 MB of RAM, S3 Virge 4 MB was fairly good at RedHat 6.0, running on some 2.2 kernel. Perhaps all the components are getting bloated with time. GTK and so on.

You tried a flavour of Unix:like (not linux) from 2005 on a celeron 400Mhz PC (released 1999) with most likely a PCI Geforce 6200 card? What I'm simply pointing out is that much time has passed since then. I tried the first releases of Ubuntu back then and it certainly wasn't the greatest experience. You are attempting to compare an experience gained on some very dated technology, 6+ years ago, with a much advanced product these days. You are effectively saying that you have no time for Windows 7 because you gave Windows 95 a try and didn't like it.

It's 2012 and what most of us are talking about here is the experience you get with Debian Linux such as Ubuntu 12.04:

Valve is recruiting Linux devs, the CEO has seen the proof - it's probably going to happen.

Here Is Valve's Source Engine Left 4 Dead 2 On Linux

Left 4 Dead 2 on the Source Engine running natively under Linux with OpenGL is faster than running the game on Windows 7 with DirectX when both the Direct3D and OpenGL renderers are tested there.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1Njc

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1MjI

NVIDIA To Meet With X.Org Developers Next Month

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1NzY

Valve & Intel Work On Open-Source GPU Drivers

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE0MzQ

The Arma2 Linux thread:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?129553-ARMA2-OA-CO-Demo-Free-TOH-on-WINE-Linux!

Edited August 13, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

I used X11 on a Celeron 400MHz for a few years. Sad, tragic experience. Believe it was FreeBSD 6.x.

I see. So your technical rant of X11 is based on one tragic experience with FreeBSD on Celeron 400MHz.

Fix'd

Ahahaha.

Thank you for ignoring my technical implication of your claims.

[sthalik 10]

No. It's not. But it's useless arguing with someone making arbitrary assumptions at every step. I better withdraw, lest a perfectly good thread gets locked down, again.

[PELHAM 10]

@sthalik not sure if you saw my post on the last page (links don't seem to have worked so posted again) but there is a report from Phoronix where Valve made a presentation at SIGGRAPH (Special Interest Group on Computer Graphics and Interactive Techniques) showing that:

How Valve Made L4D2 Faster On Linux Than Windows

Left 4 Dead 2 on the Valve Source Engine running natively under Linux with OpenGL is faster than running the game on Windows 7 with DirectX when both the Direct3D and OpenGL renderers are tested.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1NzE

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1ODI

Edited August 13, 2012 by PELHAM

[Cards525 10]

Good for Linux, bad for Windows Vista :(

[orcinus 121]

Nice find, Pelham. Thanks for the (working :) links.

@sthalik: thank you for holdng off, your discretion is appreciated.

BR

Orc