Too much muzzle flash and reload animations?

[Booster 1]

The muzzle flashes showcased at E3 were perfect, and you can't get better than perfect. If the muzzle flashes get changed I'm going to hurt someone.

[Panda_pl 0]

Look here at around 9 minutes. I wonder if that Mk200 is using a flash suppressor:

Few seconds earlier you can see in the gear menu that is not the case.

It's probably much less visible in daytime.

[Steakslim 1]

Keep in mind different calibers and barrel lengths affect the muzzle flash. The shorter the barrel the bigger the flash; with caliber usually the larger it is the more powder is needed to move the round, more powder more flash.

Also military ammunition is generally made to have as little of a muzzle flash as possible, while civilian ammunition usually has a larger flash, to put on a better show or something along those lines.

Not so much to put on a better show as it is just various options of ammunition to choose from. Military surplus ammunition is not exactly the highest tier of ammunition you could get, and in the armed forces it is fairly regulated, where as in the civilian market you have several options with varying counts of grain for what ever accuracy/power needs that the shooter wishes to fulfill, from some really powerful loads to even subsonic loads. Many options of which are more hotter loads than the military standards, which might require adjustments to gas systems at times and sometimes stronger tolerances built into the firearm itself (fortunately the civilian market in firearms as a ton of options for many weapons). Some people also do handloads to save money, though if they don't know what they are doing the results can be dangerous. There's also different levels of quality in powders and in manufacturing in different brands of ammunition.

---------- Post added at 03:38 ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 ----------

Few seconds earlier you can see in the gear menu that is not the case.

It's probably much less visible in daytime.

I didn't think about it earlier but perhaps not all weapons will have the same level of customization? The MK200 may just come with a flash suppressor and that's it as far as muzzle devices go, that or it might have been the default one perhaps?

[50.cal 10]

*deleted

Edited June 10, 2012 by 50.cal

[CyclonicTuna 87]

Keep in mind they where firing a heavy caliber rifle. I'd say that muzzle flashes differ when using smaller ammunition like 9mm.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Is this a troll thread by troll people? :icon_twisted:

FLASH SUPPRESSORS.

/end

The muzzle flashes showcased at E3 were perfect, and you can't get better than perfect. If the muzzle flashes get changed I'm going to hurt someone.

That makes two of us.

[PuFu 4600]

as someone else previously said: there can't be enough muzzle flash in one's game ;)

[Americanel 10]

Keep in mind they where firing a heavy caliber rifle. I'd say that muzzle flashes differ when using smaller ammunition like 9mm.

small bullet few gunpowder

Hello, I was just wondering if these issues have been addressed.

The second issue is with the reload animations. I didn't really go into counting rounds, but I do think the person playing reloaded a few times in the middle of a magazine. Meaning there should still be a round in the chamber and the bolt should still be in battery. Yet when they reload, I think I notice the character hitting a bolt stop/release after inserting the magazine. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. But also, does he engage that bolt releast on the RIGHT side of the weapon? Shouldn't the bolt release of that weapon be on the LEFT side since it's for a right-handed shooter and the hand he's using for reloading is his left?

I really need some time to sit with the game to get an in-depth look at these details, but those are the things I think I noticed in the videos. Again, please correct me if I'm mistaken. I could be seeing some things wrong. I also understand the game isn't being released yet so they still have time to fix things. I mentioned the visible reticle thing and was informed that the issue is already known, and I really would appreciate if you guys can notify me if these issues are also known. I will not take offense to it. I am looking forward to this game like you cannot believe, and I'm just trying to bring up issues that might need to be addressed. Thanks. :-)

When you reload, for example with ar15, if you change an half magazine, you have one bullet in the chamber you only need to leave the magazine and put new one without do other action because it's the same if you continue to use the older magazine. If you have free chamber for example end of the bullets the bolt carrier go back into the buffer tube, you need to leave magazine, put new one and press the bolt catch for rearm the rifle, in so doing the bolt carrier go forward, takes the bullet and charge into the chamber and you have rifle ready to fire. The time it's not too much different, little second more if you have to reload with empty chamber.

sorry for my english but i think have explained right

Edited June 10, 2012 by Americanel

[Tonci87 163]

Leave the Muzzleflashes as they are and make some nice surpressor/hiders or someone is going to get hurt

[Janez 533]

When you reload, for example with ar15, if you change an half magazine, you have one bullet in the chamber you only need to leave the magazine and put new one without do other action because it's the same if you continue to use the older magazine. If you have free chamber for example end of the bullets the bolt carrier go back into the buffer tube, you need to leave magazine, put new one and press the bolt catch for rearm the rifle, in so doing the bolt carrier go forward, takes the bullet and charge into the chamber and you have rifle ready to fire. The time it's not too much different, little second more if you have to reload with empty chamber.

Exactly. It would really be a shame not to have tactical reloads in game since the game is supposed to simulate infantry combat. Pretty much every tactical shooter out there as well as games like BF3 and CoD (not +1 round in CoD, just animations) have this. Movement animations and control seem really tight in Arma 3, judging from E3 videos so CQB should be dope. All it needs in that concern then are proper reload animations. I am aware that this requires twice as much work as someone already pointed out in dev blog thread and that is why I was always saying less weapons/vehicles, etc. more detail. New equipment can always come with expansions/DLCs, features not so much.

[Americanel 10]

Exactly. It would really be a shame not to have tactical reloads in game since the game is supposed to simulate infantry combat. Pretty much every tactical shooter out there as well as games like BF3 and CoD (not +1 round in CoD, just animations) have this. Movement animations and control seem really tight in Arma 3, judging from E3 videos so CQB should be dope. All it needs in that concern then are proper reload animations. I am aware that this requires twice as much work as someone already pointed out in dev blog thread and that is why I was always saying less weapons/vehicles, etc. more detail. New equipment can always come with expansions/DLCs, features not so much.

I want the right reload movement.

OT why not put some random jamming of the weapon, say, 5%, with automatic auto release? OT close i put that in whishes thread

Edited June 10, 2012 by Americanel

[fraczek 4]

I think according to this video, there definitely is too much muzzle flash in the game. Even with NO muzzle device the muzzle flash is significantly less than in the game...

That's a problem of comparing youtube videos to real life - this one is obviously filmed in manual exposure mode, and pretty closed aperture as well. Just open up the aprture there for more ambient dark (notice the without the flashlight, there is only black except in the sky) and the flame could get brighter. In real life your eyes would get quite a bigger afterglow of the flame, especially since they would be wide open and adjusted for the dark. Not discussing if it's accurate or not, just pointing out defficiency of comparing videos to real life which is what Arma should be modelled after..

[kernriver 4]

Regarding tactical reload (30+1 bullet), while it wouldn't be the end of the world if it wasn't in the game, I think it should be in just for the sake of realism; it's what happenes IRL when you do tactical reload.

[DemonMustang 1]

Keep in mind different calibers and barrel lengths affect the muzzle flash. The shorter the barrel the bigger the flash; with caliber usually the larger it is the more powder is needed to move the round, more powder more flash.

Also military ammunition is generally made to have as little of a muzzle flash as possible, while civilian ammunition usually has a larger flash, to put on a better show or something along those lines.

Thanks for the response, and I definitely do understand that. But if you watch that video, the weapon they used without any muzzle device was a Bushmaster AR15 with a 16" barrel. That fires the same caliber ammo as the military M16 and M4, and the M16 has a LONGER barrel than the AR15 and the M4 is about 1.5" shorter. So it's actually a very nice in-between size that can closely represent either weapon. And even with absolutely no muzzle device in a weapon of comparable barrel length, identical gas impingement system, firing similar ammo, in a pitch black setting (the setting in the game is somewhat lit, which should actually hide some of the flash) and in that real-world setting, the muzzle flash appeared to only be about 4-6" past the end of the muzzle and wasn't even really bright. While in the game, that weapon appears to have a muzzle device on it if you look real closely, yet the muzzle flash is an incredible ball of fire a good 12-16" past the muzzle and is bright enough to light everyone up around it. I honestly believe that they should probably think about decreasing the muzzle flash in the game to be less like the movies and more like the real life. That's just my opinion though based on the input I've heard and seen from you guys. Thanks. :-)

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 ----------

That's a problem of comparing youtube videos to real life - this one is obviously filmed in manual exposure mode, and pretty closed aperture as well. Just open up the aprture there for more ambient dark (notice the without the flashlight, there is only black except in the sky) and the flame could get brighter. In real life your eyes would get quite a bigger afterglow of the flame, especially since they would be wide open and adjusted for the dark. Not discussing if it's accurate or not, just pointing out defficiency of comparing videos to real life which is what Arma should be modelled after..

Actually, when it's dark the camera typically automatically opens up the aperture to it's widest open setting. But even putting those things into consideration, if you watch the gameplay demo, it's not completely dark, there are actually plenty of lights around the character. So technically speaking, the amount of visible flash should actually be less than in a darker situation. Notice in the youtube video, they had to use their flashlights to make sure there wasn't anything or anyone downrange. It could have been a moonless night where it actually was too dark even for our eyes to adjust. Remember, we have fairly poor night-vision compared to other animals in the animal kingdom. But if the flash was as big and bright as it was in the gameplay demo, even darkened a little it would still be far more visible than what was shown in the real-world youtube demo. We're not talking about the difference between a 10" muzzle flash and a 12" muzzle flash, we're talking about between a 6" muzzle flash and one that might exceed 16". I think that's quite a bit of difference that even a camera with its exposure settings a little too low could not make. Especially if the flash should have been big enough to be considered a light source for the camera to pick up...

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

When you reload, for example with ar15, if you change an half magazine, you have one bullet in the chamber you only need to leave the magazine and put new one without do other action because it's the same if you continue to use the older magazine. If you have free chamber for example end of the bullets the bolt carrier go back into the buffer tube, you need to leave magazine, put new one and press the bolt catch for rearm the rifle, in so doing the bolt carrier go forward, takes the bullet and charge into the chamber and you have rifle ready to fire. The time it's not too much different, little second more if you have to reload with empty chamber.

sorry for my english but i think have explained right

Your explanation was spot on. I was just making the point that it appeared as if he reloaded in the middle of a magazine (with a round still in the chamber) but the reload animation still showed him manipulating some sort of bolt catch device. And my other concern about that is that it appears like the bolt release that he manipulates in the game was on the right (as in opposite of left) side of the weapon instead of on the left side of the weapon where it should be...

[Panda_pl 0]

And my other concern about that is that it appears like the bolt release that he manipulates in the game was on the right (as in opposite of left) side of the weapon instead of on the left side of the weapon where it should be...

You missed one important detail in the videos. :icon_twisted:

[instagoat 133]

The videos aren´t really clear on the location of the bolt release. It could either be depressed with the thumb (gripping around the magwell gives better leverage, maybe it´s a very heavy button), or it´s mounted on the opposite side (sort of like a far-forward magpul BAD) to be manipulated with the index finger of the firing hand.

Or maybe I missed something.

As far as tac reloads go, I have heard there are plans to adapt the engine to allow them, but right now, it doesn´t work without scripts or workarounds, which the devs want to avoid. But, if it is at all possible, and we as a community make it a priority to get proper firearms simulation, they might look into correct this proper. That means weapon + ammo giving firing profiles instead of firing profiles solely determined by magazine as in A2 (Making different types of weapons pointless), as well as rifle malfunctions (and proper clearing animations for the malfunctions, ie SPORTS drill.).

Once the devheaven goes up, I will make a ticket for this, because I usually play as an infantryman, and I really would love to get more realistic weapons handling by default.

[metalcraze 290]

There are flash suppressors

And so? Even without the flash suppressor there shouldn't be a hugeass 1 meter long flame.

[DemonMustang 1]

You missed one important detail in the videos. :icon_twisted:

Ok, I don't doubt that I might have. But can you please just tell me what that is?

[antoineflemming 14]

And so? Even without the flash suppressor there shouldn't be a hugeass 1 meter long flame.

Is this too much muzzle flash for you?

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or is this?

xY3H237EAa8

or is this too much?

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Compare that to what currently seen in ArmA3. The muzzle flashes in ArmA3 are NOT excessive. They represent weapons that don't have flash hiders/compressors. You're no longer spoon-fed in ArmA3. You're not going to get a ready-made rifle. It's up to the player to put a flash hider/suppressor on his weapon. It's up to the player to put a sound suppressor on his weapon at night. It's up to the player to put appropriate sights/rail attachments on his weapon, and the player has to deal with the weight associated with that. You wanted a more realistic ArmA. Here it is.

Edited June 10, 2012 by antoineflemming

[aced170 14]

Keep in mind they where firing a heavy caliber rifle. I'd say that muzzle flashes differ when using smaller ammunition like 9mm.

True but I would hardly call 6.5mm a heavy rifle cartridge, intermediate sure but not heavy when compared to 7.62x51mm NATO or the 7.62x54mm ammunition used in the PK and other various Russian arms.

As far as tac reloads go, I have heard there are plans to adapt the engine to allow them, but right now, it doesn´t work without scripts or workarounds, which the devs want to avoid. But, if it is at all possible, and we as a community make it a priority to get proper firearms simulation, they might look into correct this proper. That means weapon + ammo giving firing profiles instead of firing profiles solely determined by magazine as in A2 (Making different types of weapons pointless), as well as rifle malfunctions (and proper clearing animations for the malfunctions, ie SPORTS drill.).

Once the devheaven goes up, I will make a ticket for this, because I usually play as an infantryman, and I really would love to get more realistic weapons handling by default.

This all of it, proper simulation of light arms is a must if not at release then definitely at some point down the road.

@Everyone defending the muzzle flashes; I think they look cool and wouldn't really mind if they were kept. They are not, generally speaking, realistic though.

[antoineflemming 14]

True but I would hardly call 6.5mm a heavy rifle cartridge, intermediate sure but not heavy when compared to 7.62x51mm NATO or the 7.62x54mm ammunition used in the PK and other various Russian arms.

This all of it, proper simulation of light arms is a must if not at release then definitely at some point down the road.

@Everyone defending the muzzle flashes; I think they look cool and wouldn't really mind if they were kept. They are not, generally speaking, realistic though.

Look at the videos I put up. Then talk about what's realistic and unrealistic. Those muzzle flashes really aren't unrealistic.

Seriously, it seems like half the time you guys talk about what's unrealistic (like muzzle flashes, or actually being accurate while moving at a "tactical pace", or doing any of these "tacticool" moves or positions), your whole basis of realism or un-realism is whether or not it appears in another shooter. Just because movement in COD is smoother than in ArmA2 doesn't mean that smoother movement in ArmA3 is unrealistic, or that clunky movement in ArmA2 is realistic just because it's in ArmA2. Just because you've never seen large muzzle flashes in ArmA2 doesn't mean that large muzzle flashes in ArmA3 are unrealistic. Just because you've never seen combat footage of Iraq or Afghanistan showing muzzle flashes doesn't mean that muzzle flashes are unrealistic. Being realistic doesn't mean being different than every other first person/third person shooter game. Being realistic means being realistic. If BF3 has sounds that are more realistic than ArmA2's sounds, and ArmA3 has more realistic sounds that may happen to sound kinda like BF3's, then it's not that ArmA3 is trying to be like BF3. ArmA3 is just being realistic. If COD has weapons that have suppressors, and they allow you to put on or take off suppressors, or sights, and ArmA3 allows that, it's not that ArmA3 is trying to be like COD. If ArmA3 has something that ArmA2 didn't have, it's not that ArmA3 is trying to appeal more to casual players. ArmA2 wasn't the perfect game. It was better than the rest, but it's not perfect.

As said before, ArmA2 basically spoon-fed you. You got ready-made rifles. The reason you didn't see large muzzle flashes in ArmA2 is because just about every rifle was one equipped with a flash hider/compressor. You had to choose weapons that had certain sights. You had to choose weapons that had suppressors. You had to choose weapons that had flashlights or IR laser pointers. You didn't really have an option to do otherwise. You couldn't have a Mk48 with a ACOG sight, or a collimator sight, or a flashlight. You could only choose one with a RCO sight, a IR laser pointer. In ArmA3, it's up to you to choose your attachments. And each of those attachments has a weight value (I think...). You choose your gear, your weapon, your attachments, which includes flash hiders/compressors. And, if you don't choose a flash hider/compressor, you get the large, very noticeable muzzle flash.

Edited June 10, 2012 by antoineflemming

[aced170 14]

Pretty much every standard issue rifle in pretty much any military worth a damn has a flash hider on it period. Those are civilian rifles most likely firing civilian ammunition, but lets break it down video by video.

The first video: It says itself no flash hider or compensator just a 20in varmint barrel, which is meant for hunting applications not military service. The upper in question (or damn close) http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=270

The second video: A short barreled rifle that has a large muzzle flash, really dude? I already said the shorter the barrel the larger the muzzle flash.

The third video: Honestly looks like he has a compensator of some kind, those generally make muzzle flash larger. (I think I caught the compensator light by the flash and I think its this one http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Primary-Weapon-Systems-FSC556-Tactical-Compensator-p/pws%20fsc556.htm or a similar style)

An issued M16(A4 probably) at night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6odorAXE5o

[DemonMustang 1]

Is this too much muzzle flash for you?

or is this?

or is this too much?

Compare that to what currently seen in ArmA3. The muzzle flashes in ArmA3 are NOT excessive. They represent weapons that don't have flash hiders/compressors. You're no longer spoon-fed in ArmA3. You're not going to get a ready-made rifle. It's up to the player to put a flash hider/suppressor on his weapon. It's up to the player to put a sound suppressor on his weapon at night. It's up to the player to put appropriate sights/rail attachments on his weapon, and the player has to deal with the weight associated with that. You wanted a more realistic ArmA. Here it is.

You also have to consider the fact that those videos' sole intention is to show off muzzle flash. You don't know if they're using blanks (which has more muzzle flash for show) or special ammo that's meant to create more flash. The reason why I doubt it is because I've fired my friend's AR15 without a muzzle device (mine has a Vortex Flash hider) with standard military (Lake City Green tip) ammo and a 16" barrel and I don't remember muzzle flash like that at all. The other video of the comparisons of muzzle devices, their intention was not to show off "cool" muzzle flash, but to realistically compare how muzzle devices affect the amount of muzzle flash you see. They were careful to check downrange every time even though they are most likely the only two people there which suggests to me that they are using live ammo to conduct those tests. These "show off" videos, they will do anything to get the views, including using special ammo or using blanks just to get the effect they want.

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

Pretty much every standard issue rifle in pretty much any military worth a damn has a flash hider on it period. Those are civilian rifles most likely firing civilian ammunition, but lets break it down video by video.

The first video: It says itself no flash hider or compensator just a 20in varmint barrel, which is meant for hunting applications not military service. The upper in question (or damn close) http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=270

The second video: A short barreled rifle that has a large muzzle flash, really dude? I already said the shorter the barrel the larger the muzzle flash.

The third video: Honestly looks like he has a compensator of some kind, those generally make muzzle flash larger. (I think I caught the compensator light by the flash and I think its this one http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Primary-Weapon-Systems-FSC556-Tactical-Compensator-p/pws%20fsc556.htm or a similar style)

An issued M16(A4 probably) at night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6odorAXE5o

Wow, as much of an idiot as he is for video taping himself doing those stupid things, I think this video definitely proves a point. Even with NVG's the flash is nowhere near what we see in the game. And those NVG's pick up on even the slightest amount of light. So with the naked eye without the NVG's I bet you probably wouldn't have noticed much of anything. I mean, clearly this video using all standard equipment and the video where they were testing out muzzle devices, are much more credible in showing how it looks in the real world than videos people shot to show off the "cool" muzzle flash of their weapons...

Edited June 10, 2012 by Max Power

[Janez 533]

@InstaGoat, that sounds good. Let us know when you make the ticket.

[max power 21]

DemonMustang

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