max power 21 Posted June 1, 2012 All I want- and certainly it is not against the forum rules to catastrophize- is for people to stop jumping to the most catastrophic interpretation of that article. It seems to me that it would be a simple matter of writing an email describing your intent, awaiting a reply, then starting work using the OA tools. Then, when you're satisfied, you can begin working together with the devs to get it ported over and released officially. It's an extra step, and someone else is in control of whether or not you can do it. That kind of sucks compared to the free and open way we have been doing it for BI's games, I agree. But trust me, do you think the people at IF really want to pour over all these applications and yay or nay things based on either an email full of a boat load of smoke or an addon that soemone has already put months into but may or may not make the grade? I am quite sure that this agreement has everything to do with some protective restrictions that must be in place, and nothing to do with the IF devs being control freaks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess you either mod with the restrictions or you don't. Raging and ranting about how it should be a different way and could be if only you complain hard enough, I guarantee you, is not helping. By all means, express your concerns about the arrangement, but be realistic, and put some thought into the situation before you just blurt out "Write an email? Too much work. Kthnxbye.". When you are talking about a hobby commitment that may take months of your spare time, complaining about writing an email and establishing a personal relationship with the devteam of a game you ostensibly love so much sounds patently ridiculous. true but take in account that not everyone owns that game :) they might have new comers on the plate that want to mod also .. The only way for them to mod in IF then is trough purchasing ArmA2 OA, not that it is tremendously expensive but still, it would be nice if they can release some sort of a test key for developers, which need to ask for it of course with a license agreement where they abide to only use it for testing purposes or something in that line.kind regards That is true, and it is absolutely a legitimate and well thought out criticism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfire257 3 Posted June 1, 2012 Not sure what to make of this. It sounds like it makes it a tremendous pain the arse to test anything at the moment. I'll wait for more information/clarification on it. The license stuff is fine with me, but the testing part is just...off. We'll see! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) a legitimate and well thought out criticism. It was not really meant as criticism :p I try to see it from both sides and like I see the statement now for those that own ArmA2OA will have less restriction then those that don't have it because they don't have the key for basic testing. However I do understand why IF development made that statement I hope people will read it more thorough then what Ive seen the past few hours and look deeper in to that article, at some point I see and understand a bit why some are disappointed, but like you said raging doesn't help. We don't get anywhere with that kind of attitude, like said building up a more personal relation with the devs from Iron front might bring up some new id's in a whole, stating that it is a hobby where an individual doesn't show commitment when they need to jump trough an extra hoop sounds idd a bit strange ... but hey who am I to judge others :) kind regards Edited June 2, 2012 by KBourne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedra 11 Posted June 2, 2012 Having read the statement I can see how they are bound to the licence agreement with BIS when it comes to using BIS tools to create addons - from that point of view it's kind of sensible. I think though that it is concentrating on the 'big stuff'. There are loads of little addons in Arma that don't do very much but are very useful that people knock together in a short amount of time to fix an immediate problem. Then there are the little replacement configs that are built to change weapon loadouts and the like. I can't see these ever making it to IF under the current agreement. Firstly, the addon maker just isn't going to bother to go through an approval and QA process just for a small config replacement, secondly the IF dev team could very quickly get bogged down approving hundreds of tiny mods/addons!! Not to mention that a config replacement couldn't be tested by the addon maker with the current arrangement. Also it's worth remembering that the guys who make the large addons, probably started by making small addons (maybe just for their clan) - it's going to be hard for the new guys to learn unless they do it in A2 or A3 (or ToH). I would have like to have converted my own addons to IF, but mostly they use CBA which may or may not get ported - we'll have to wait and see. Also, it seems that those who were looking forward getting some units with "authentic WWII German symbology" may be scuppered from the start... "In addition X1Software/Awar will make sure the content contains no cheats or other abusive or non legal content (does not violate other people's rights, e.g. is original content based on original content and not for example ripped off content from Arma; contains no banned symbols and the like)." Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this develops. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicholas 5 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I said that it isn't that hard to get the license How do you know this? Have you gotten a license? Ultimately, this does make the modding process a lot harder, just read what Jedra had to say about it. I believe that because of this, the modding community will not be very large for Iron Front. I can understand that this is caused by an agreement with Bohemia Interactive. I really hope the developers have plans to release lots of DLC to compensate for this. Edited June 2, 2012 by Nicholas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therussiandong 10 Posted June 2, 2012 Part of me wishes I hadn't bought this game yet. Its so buggy already that I don't have the patience anymore now because of this whole modding situation. So let me get this straight.. We can't use the BI Tools in X1's game because the tools belong to BI.. and even if you get the addon done you have to ask for a license? But what the hell does that even mean? What could they possibly give you that makes it work? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phazon 0 Posted June 2, 2012 It probably will make it harder for unexperienced modders, but I think the experienced ones who are interested in Iron Front will take up the opportunity. Its not all bad, take this as an example: You make a new tank. You show it to X1 / AWAR. They think it'd fit perfectly in the game. You might not be very good with doing the configs or even textures but you're a great modeller. You work together with X1 / AWAR and provide them with an excellent new tank model and they help you out with the configs and texture work. The tank gets added in a patch. Everyone downloads the patch and gets to play with your new tank model. You get lots of recognition and praise for it. Everyone wins. I don't think some people will be able to understand, but its just out of X1 / AWAR's hands as they don't own the engine and can't offer the same freedom Bohemia can. However I think this compromise will still lead to a game that will grow with the community's help over time for everyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therussiandong 10 Posted June 2, 2012 But what makes you think they would take the time to do configs/texture for us? Frankly, to me it seems like they don't care much about the mods or addons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) How do you know this? Have you gotten a license? I am not much of a moddeler or a coder my self, but I am very sure if I mail bis with the right intentions that I can get such a license in no time, It would not make any sense when IF development writes it in their statement if Bohemia Interactive is going to turn down every sing sole that asks for one? This means both parties have been talking about it before what can be don and what not. Ultimately, this does make the modding process a lot harder, True but it doesn't make it impossible aether is it? just read what Jedra had to say about it. I believe that because of this, the modding community will not be very large for Iron Front. I can understand that this is caused by an agreement with Bohemia Interactive. I really hope the developers have plans to release lots of DLC to compensate for this. What Jedra is saying might be true, he nails it down a bit more trough the rules and points more onwards the bigger modders ... however I still think that the more serious modders will get an opportunity here, it might be that the smaller modders like config replacement files and such will be left out this time, like said it is not ArmA2 and not Bohemia interactive and it is certainly not IF's engine, IF Development has an agreement with BIS which they need to follow, they also have to follow the law if it come towards releasing explicit content like symbols, the freedom in Iron Front might get tuned down by this but if we look a bit towards where they are coming from its pretty much understandable. Kind regards Edited June 2, 2012 by KBourne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfire257 3 Posted June 2, 2012 Jedra is right on. I'm a smaller modder who mainly makes things for personal/clan use and this makes it very awkward to do such things. If anyone is thinking I make personal things because I'm using dodgy content, I'd like to point out that when I mod, the end goal isn't to release anything - it is simply to learn. Most of it isn't of presentable quality! :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icewindo 29 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) ...You only need a license of bis for free use of O2 to release Free addons for iron front you don't need nothing more. common can you guys read a bit before hustling in to conclusions? they are not shutting the door flat to your face, the only thing you need to do is contact bis and ask for a personal license. point.... ... They are shutting the door flat my in our face, maybe even more... If every adddon, let it be a new skin, a config change, a new weapon or a new fieldtoilet needs to be approved and signed by the IF devs for it to be able to be loaded by the game this will seriously cut down the number of mods for this game and many modders won't start at all because of the barriers put up. And who's not to say an addon won't be signed by the devs because it doesn't fit their type. This is ridiculous and I'm just glad I don't have enough time to get back into addon creation anyway. Jedra is right on. I'm a smaller modder who mainly makes things for personal/clan use and this makes it very awkward to do such things.If anyone is thinking I make personal things because I'm using dodgy content, I'd like to point out that when I mod, the end goal isn't to release anything - it is simply to learn. Most of it isn't of presentable quality! :D Full agree there. Edited June 2, 2012 by Icewindo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) They are shutting the door flat my in our face, maybe even more... Nope they don't you are only feeling that way because they aren't that flexible as Bohemia interactive is, and you surely don't take in account that they have also rules to follow! You only see it from the modders side :) now I am going to say that the ones that react like this are very selfish, You do know they don't ow you nothing except of a working game yes? If every adddon, let it be a new skin, a config change, a new weapon or a new fieldtoilet needs to be approved and signed by the IF devs for it to be able to be loaded by the game this will seriously cut down the number of mods for this game and many modders won't start at all because of the barriers put up. Those that want to mod will step over that barrier, and I bet they will! Iron front is a good game aether with modding or without mods .. And who's not to say an addon won't be signed by the devs because it doesn't fit their type. This is ridiculous and I'm just glad I don't have enough time to get back into addon creation anyway. And they have the right to do so whether you like it or not, they have laws to follow and they have a strict agreement with bis and thats that, very sad for those that can not comply to this but thats how it is whining is not going to help .... kind regards Edited June 2, 2012 by KBourne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
terox 316 Posted June 2, 2012 Maybe this approach is a good thing, for a while the entire Iron Front community will be able to play with one n other, without the hassle of finding and then loading 3rd party content. There are a lot of non ArmA players arriving on the scene that havent a clue about the hassles caused by addons. and then when more information comes to light, it may very well be that some of the decent addons are incorporated into IF Could be an excellent way for quality control. No point in second guessing what the outcome will be, simply wait and see and enjoy the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr burns 132 Posted June 2, 2012 @KBourne: You maintain a very tight defensive grid on this matter, does it shoot down ICBM's too? :o Throwing in two quick examples of fun i couldn´t have because of restrictions: -Paintball in WW2 -RO2 voices merged with DSAI (only for personal use) Pzf-chicken ammo? Not gonna happen either, all the fun stuff... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skadog 0 Posted June 2, 2012 Using an ArmA engine, is almost implying a friendly attitude towards modification.. (this is one factor that draws me towards a game purchase.) I'm not terribly worried about it at this point, however a couple of patches in and we'll see for sure.. :j: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icewindo 29 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Nope they don't you are only feeling that way because they aren't that flexible as Bohemia interactive is, and you surely don't take in account that they have also rules to follow! You only see it from the modders side :) now I am going to say that the ones that react like this are very selfish, You do know they don't ow you nothing except of a working game yes? A working game... this I have yet to see with the mission stoppers and whatnot... Those that want to mod will step over that barrier, and I bet they will! Iron front is a good game aether with modding or without mods .. Imho there'll only be a marginal amount of modders left after this. Maybe they'll top the activity of the TOH modding forums but that's not hard to do. And they have the right to do so whether you like it or not, they have laws to follow and they have a strict agreement with bis and thats that, very sad for those that can not comply to this but thats how it is whining is not going to help .... kind regards They could have told the community just maybe ABIT earlier than after release about their strict modding policy. Before the release there were only positive replies on possible modding. (quick, Iron Front devs, edit your past posts!) You also missed my point here. Not accepting an addon because the devs don't like it's style has nothing to do with following laws and licenses. ... Throwing in two quick examples of fun i couldn´t have because of restrictions: -Paintball in WW2 -RO2 voices merged with DSAI (only for personal use) Pzf-chicken ammo? Not gonna happen either, all the fun stuff... My brother in mind :) Edited June 2, 2012 by Icewindo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) @KBourne: You maintain a very tight defensive grid on this matter, does it shoot down ICBM's too? :o No I maintain a very understanding and tight grid on this matter thats totally something different -> which don't needs any ICBM's :P is it because I don't align with the common critique? :rolleyes: I think I said already that I do understand the disappointment but that will not change the fact that they have a modding policy which we need to abide by willing or not willing :) A working game... this I have yet to see with the mission stoppers and whatnot... Do bear in mind that this matter does not concern every gamer and might only be inflicted upon some users of this game, which they are trying to fix :) They could have told the community just maybe ABIT earlier than after release about their strict modding policy. Before the release there were only positive replies on possible modding. (quick, Iron Front devs, edit your past posts!) Dear Iron Front Fans We have to apologize for our incorrect statements about being able to provide exactly the same possibilities and process of community modding for Iron Front as Arma does. There has been a misunderstanding on our side until very recently about our agreement with Bohemia Interactive on the possibilities and limitations. Iron Front will allow modding, but there are limits and certain things to keep in mind. This is to not violate both our agreement with Bohemia Interactive and the license a modder accepts when he is using the BI tools suite. I understand from this quoting that they had a misunderstanding between them and Bohenia Interactive where they thought that the same possibilities for modding could be delivered like with ArmA2, sadly this isn't case. Where they also need to adapt. Mistakes happen... You also missed my point here. Not accepting an addon because the devs don't like it's style has nothing to do with following laws and licenses. They have all the right to Implement such a rule, however they never stated that they will not accept addons which they personally don't like. Not that it not might happen but the main reason of the rule as such has been applied because they want to be able to screen the content for banned symbols and that it doesn't contain explicit forbidden content. You can't expect because you or others want to see it differently that they will comply ... Kind regards Edited June 2, 2012 by KBourne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gossamersolid 155 Posted June 2, 2012 I understand from this quoting that they had a misunderstanding between them and Bohenia Interactive and the IF development team where they thought that the same possibilities for modding could be delivered like with ArmA2, sadly this isnt so and they need to adapt and so need the user. Mistakes happen... Not mistakes like this when I paid $29.99 They should offer refunds then because they led everybody to believe that it'd be open to modding like A2, then turned around and stuck a digital dick in our digital assholes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Not mistakes like this when I paid $29.99 And now you are broke? If you really have gotten the game only for modding then I would assume that you would put some more effort in to your hobby then only complain about 29.99 dollars common, Is there not anyway that you would possible be able to mod in Iron front or are you just following the rest of the pack? They should offer refunds then because they led everybody to believe that it'd be open to modding like A2, Yeah right where in the enclosed selling license is there stated that it will be included ??? where ! Then turned around and stuck a digital dick in our digital assholes. Yeah solid copy :rolleyes: Edited June 2, 2012 by KBourne Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
max power 21 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Let us not forget that the license BI supplies the A2 Tool Suite clearly states that they may only be used to create content for BI's games. This may have something to do with the situation. 2. Limited Use of License: [...] The licensor also specifically prohibits the use of the Software for other purpose than designing, developing, testing, and producing non-commercial game content for computer games developed by the Licensor only. 3. End User's Obligations: [...] B.You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: [...] (iv) Commercially exploit or allow a 3rd party commercially exploit game content you created using the Software, including but not limited to use by military organizations for computer aided training or commercially released game content; So it looks like IF DLC doesn't fall under the scope of the BI Tools 2 license. So, if you give the addon or mod to them, and they adapt it, possibly it falls under the scope of their agreement with BI instead. Edited June 2, 2012 by Max Power Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gossamersolid 155 Posted June 2, 2012 I don't care about BI Tools usage, I care about being able to run my own addons (such as config changes). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
max power 21 Posted June 2, 2012 You can't do that without the packing tools ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KEVINMGXP 20 Posted June 2, 2012 You can't do that without the packing tools ;) I was thinking the same just now, not only that I wonder :rolleyes: ... oh never mind I am going to leave it at that :p lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
runforrest 10 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) ... I care about being able to run my own addons ... exactly I run hundreds of small addons, mostly fixes (GDT,Proper;Truemods etc... i have kind of my very own Warmod running) without those i dont play ArmA. Some of those would also be great and NEEDED in IF. But i dont think they will make it into this game. I hope future proves me wrong. On the other hand its great for PvP gameplay to have all servers on the same "addon-status", BUT im not very interested in PvP with the ArmA engine because the grafics are not very consistent among all clients (u cant force same grafic settings on all clients - which makes fair gameplay impossible) + the main big problem of grass clutter not being rendered at greater distances. Edited June 2, 2012 by RunForrest cut misleading quote out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gossamersolid 155 Posted June 2, 2012 You can't do that without the packing tools ;) CPBO/Eliteness/other dePBO programs aren't BITools soooo... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
