What's the point of playing Vanilla Style?

-Coulum- · December 8, 2010

Okay thanks for clearing that up. I take back what I said about Dayz being included in 1.61. my bad. I love you BI.

PuFu · February 17, 2007

Oh really? my bad! Hallelujah! Thank the heavens! I though I read on armaholic it would be though... I am going to go and check again. If you are right I take back what I said.
Edit

Mmmm no I think you are mistaken Nicholas. read this

unless armaholic isn't reliable, I am pretty sure Dayz is included in the next patch...

read that again, everything and NOT just the title...

"We're more than happy to assist DayZ in any suitable way and considering the mod's popularity we are committed to do some related work in the next Arma 2 update (1.61)."

so guess it is time to take it back.

___________________________

what i don't get about this thread, which title is NOT What is the reason ppl play without ACE mod, but rather why people play vanilla.

there is a bunch of ACE fanatics around here, which i don't really mind as long as they are not trying to impose their personal preferences to others, which, for some fucking weird reason they do (looking at the obvious candidates: metalcraze, maturin and some others who keep coming back to the same shit over and over again, in every other thread).

I said it numerous times before: BIS designed a sandbox, a big Lego game. What you do with is up to any of you.

Now, going back to ACE since this seems to be the main gripe for some (and this is coming from someone who has been developing for ACE1 since kju was lead and trying to keep WGL alive):

ACE is, without any question or doubt, a masterpiece, thanks to many, but mainly to rocko, sickboy, xeno, Q11, zguba and a couple of other great lads.

That said, there are a lot of features that are somewhat forced into the engine, due to, mainly different limitations. One example would be the stamina system: since there is no way to reduce the speed to walking mode, the collapsing approach has been taken.

While for some this sort of limitation might be great, for some is just the opposite (including myself).

Surely, there are some features that would be most than welcome into vanilla, mainly, as many have said agreed on the same before: the weapon resting, the improved weapon systems (i am looking at your handheld AT launchers and TOW rockets) the fatigue system that controls your speed rather than making you black out, and a few of the others.

On the other hand, no matter how much or less time you are spending in front of your monitor playing armchair general, one thing is for certain: arma is a GAME. Some want it to be a MP PvP shooter, some want it to have human like AI, some want it to mimick everything from having to take a piss to having to eat, drink and sleep. No matter, what most want is product in a finished state, that is an improvement over previous titles, and have a few new , lets call them for now, "realistic features".

Then again, knowing the amount of time ACE lads put into their mod first hand, just working on features rather than all the other things that make out a game, some need to understand some of the reasons behind some decisions BIS took, and what is the overall scope of their product. It is similar to saying BIS should make the air vehicles work like in DCS/lock on etc and ground vehicles like in steel beats, all with the same visual and technical fidelity. I have heard this before, especially from people that have no relation to the game industry whatsoever.

For the ACE lovers: as sickboy said it not so long ago, ACE will make its appearance in A3 just as well. Moreso, for people like metalcraze, i am pretty sure they would welcome some helping hands, where helping hands means more than just typing rants on forums, but actually getting involved and spending your own free time building something other will or not enjoy. I always found it funny that the most vocal "realism buffs" are the ones that haven't provided anything for anyone, and they'll most likely never do, except for the frequently mindless posts/thread.

Besides ACE, there are a number of other really great addon out there, from CWR2 to individual content.

To answer the thread title question before i put an end to this long post: because it is, or at least it should be, hassle free.

Edited May 25, 2012 by PuFu

-Coulum- · December 8, 2010

read that again, everything and NOT just the title...

I did read the whole thing but statements like these tricked my poor little brain.

So, I guess it was time for the devs to support another community project and Marek Å panÄ›l has stated himself Dayz will be included into Arma 2 with the next patch, being patch 1.61!

But as I said, my bad, I take it back.

I said it numerous times before: BIS designed a sandbox, a big Lego game. What you do with is up to any of you.
Now, going back to ACE since this seems to be the main gripe for some (and this is coming from someone who has been developing for ACE1 since kju was lead and trying to keep WGL alive):

ACE is, without any question or doubt, a masterpiece, thanks to many, but mainly to rocko, sickboy, xeno, Q11, zguba and a couple of other great lads.

That said, there are a lot of features that are somewhat forced into the engine, due to, mainly different limitations. One example would be the stamina system: since there is no way to reduce the speed to walking mode, the collapsing approach has been taken.

While for some this sort of limitation might be great, for some is just the opposite (including myself).

Surely, there are some features that would be most than welcome into vanilla, mainly, as many have said agreed on the same before: the weapon resting, the improved weapon systems (i am looking at your handheld AT launchers and TOW rockets) the fatigue system that controls your speed rather than making you black out, and a few of the others.

On the other hand, no matter how much or less time you are spending in front of your monitor playing armchair general, one thing is for certain: arma is a GAME. Some want it to be a MP PvP shooter, some want it to have human like AI, some want it to mimick everything from having to take a piss to having to eat, drink and sleep. No matter, what most want is product in a finished state, that is an improvement over previous titles, and have a few new , lets call them for now, "realistic features".

Then again, knowing the amount of time ACE lads put into their mod first hand, just working on features rather than all the other things that make out a game, some need to understand some of the reasons behind some decisions BIS took, and what is the overall scope of their product. It is similar to saying BIS should make the air vehicles work like in DCS/lock on etc and ground vehicles like in steel beats, all with the same visual and technical fidelity. I have heart this before, especially from people that have no relation to the game industry whatsoever.

For the ACE lovers: as sickboy said it not so long ago, ACE will make its appearance in A3 just as well. Moreso, for people like metalcraze, i am pretty sure they would welcome some helping hands, where helping hands means more than just typing rants on forums, but actually getting involved and spending your own free time building something other will or not enjoy. I always found it funny that the most vocal "realism buffs" are the ones that haven't provided anything for anyone, and they'll most likely never do, except for the frequently mindless posts/thread.

Besides ACE, there are a number of other really great addon out there, from CWR2 to individual content.

To answer the thread title question before i put an end to this long post: because it is, or at least it should be, hassle free.

agreed

metalcraze · February 1, 2009

there is a bunch of ACE fanatics around here, which i don't really mind as long as they are not trying to impose their personal preferences to others, which, for some fucking weird reason they do (looking at the obvious candidates: metalcraze, maturin and some others who keep coming back to the same shit over and over again, in every other thread).

Well if BF3 players can have something (BF3 floating camera with run'n'gun aka "tacticool pace" (cuz arma is oh so clunky cuz can't run'n'gun), ragdolls (just liek in BF3!), cool animations (just liek in BF3!), cool lighting system (just liek in BF3!)) why can't ArmA players at least have some improvements as well? We now even have guns that fire and kill underwater at 50m which is like lol

I'm such a bad evil guy for wanting the series to move forward, instead of staying in the same place (or worse).

rye1 · January 2, 2010

The whole forum is for personal opinions and therefore preferences, stop the overtly aggressive and uncalled for statements. "Why do people play vanilla?" is a general statement and will attract a mixture of concepts to that specific statement. Maybe those fanatics need a leash, but so does your wording and mannerism. There is a lot of repetition in a majority of threads, it's a fact of forum-going and you'll find it anywhere.

Booster · May 25, 2012

What's the point of playing Vanilla Style?

It's obvious this question was asked merely for effect with no answer expected. Nobody plays vanilla, people either discover mods or quickly move on to other games.

dmarkwick · March 19, 2006

People play vanilla when they first get the game so that they can get a feel for the base gameplay and work out what they like, don't like, or can do better/differently themselves. Previous post to mine got it right.

Even after all this time I'm still disappointed with some attitudes toward gameplay here. To the extent that some people are actually butt-hurt that DayZ exists (or at least is so popular). Other people are complaining that not making ArmA more like ACE is in fact the same as making it more like CoD or some other hate target.

I think the reality is quite obvious to EVERYONE here; that vanilla gameplay represents a stable base for gameplay additions that can then take the game in some other direction. For some reason this evident fact is ignored in favour of attacking other opinions while grandstanding their own.

Makes for a long thread but nothing much is actually happening.

Booster · May 25, 2012

Makes for a long thread but nothing much is actually happening.

What were you expecting to learn here? Vanilla is the pizza base, but everyone believes that their favourite topping tastes best!

dmarkwick · March 19, 2006

What were you expecting to learn here? Vanilla is the pizza base, but everyone believes that their favourite topping tastes best!

Hmm good question - I guess I got busted, I didn't expect to learn anything :)

The thread seems to have changed into a list of ACE features that MUST be implemented to make vanilla worth playing. Thing is, its a line in the sand. Once those features are implemented all that happens is that other features are demanded. There's always something. At some point, the devs draw their own line, and that line will never be enough for some.

As long as the possibility exists for all these improvements, thats all we really need.

neokika · July 15, 2009

Well if BF3 players can have something (BF3 floating camera with run'n'gun aka "tacticool pace" (cuz arma is oh so clunky cuz can't run'n'gun), ragdolls (just liek in BF3!), cool animations (just liek in BF3!), cool lighting system (just liek in BF3!)) why can't ArmA players at least have some improvements as well? We now even have guns that fire and kill underwater at 50m which is like lol

This post has definitely made my day...:p

What a bunch of nonsense...

Get over it man, just because there are improvements in certain areas doesn't mean they are copying other games, or trying to attract certain players. I'm loving the new features including those you mentioned, does that make me a BF3 lover? Even if I never played it? C'mon...

If you think it's getting "worse" like you say, just move on, play Arma 2 with ACE2.

kingnl · July 23, 2005

This post has definitely made my day...:p
What a bunch of nonsense...

Get over it man, just because there are improvements in certain areas doesn't mean they are copying other games, or trying to attract certain players. I'm loving the new features including those you mentioned, does that make me a BF3 lover? Even if I never played it? C'mon...

If you think it's getting "worse" like you say, just move on, play Arma 2 with ACE2.

Then you'll also like the new trees BIS are copying from BF3.

(check from 0:30 in the video)

I don't think BIS is copying from BF3. They are just implementing new additions that are standard for the industry now. Every game has ragdolls nowadays. The floating camera is probably just a toned down setting of headblob. It's still WIP and i'm sure we can choose our own sensitivity for headblob again. The lightning system is much better then in BF3. You dont even have a sun in BF3. It's just part of the skybox, just like the clouds are part of the skybox. BIS lightning is nothing like BF3 lightning. BIS lightning is much better.

I think the new lightning system in arma3 is amazing. How the light really changes depending on the weather condition or whether the sun is hiding behind an actual volumetric cloud.

OT: I still enjoy playing ARMA2CO vanilla. You read that correctly, vanilla. The game is good enough for me in vanilla and I'm sure that with all the additions A3 will get, A3 vanilla will be enjoyable to. It feels authentic, it is fun to play and I don't really miss something. They have added enough for ARMA2CO to be fun to play.

Nicholas · July 31, 2008

Then you'll also like the new trees BIS are copying from BF3.

(check from 0:30 in the video).

Haha, this made my day. I remember I tried to do the same thing when I first played on that map!

wipman · August 16, 2003

Hi, the vanilla playing don't have the compatibility problems that using mods/addons have; i'd never used the ACE mod on the ArmA or ArmA2 for the complexity of it's installation and some of it's features, overdone IMO; i'd used player side addons that improved the game's performance or look and that's all, but i was only able of play in MP on servers that had those very few known addons or servers that allowed you to enter with anything. In other words... F hackers/cheaters holes were was hard to have fun because of those suckers SOTB.

The use of big mods brought the segregation to the MP as in the 1939's germany... "you're not one of us...!? then get outta 'ere...!!", and there isn't a solution for this other than "be one of 'em" or bann this segregation from the game's MP.

With the vanilla game you can play with everyone anywhere. Let's C ya

antoineflemming · April 27, 2011

Hi, the vanilla playing don't have the compatibility problems that using mods/addons have; i'd never used the ACE mod on the ArmA or ArmA2 for the complexity of it's installation and some of it's features, overdone IMO; i'd used player side addons that improved the game's performance or look and that's all, but i was only able of play in MP on servers that had those very few known addons or servers that allowed you to enter with anything. In other words... F hackers/cheaters holes were was hard to have fun because of those suckers SOTB.
The use of big mods brought the segregation to the MP as in the 1939's germany... "you're not one of us...!? then get outta 'ere...!!", and there isn't a solution for this other than "be one of 'em" or bann this segregation from the game's MP.

With the vanilla game you can play with everyone anywhere. Let's C ya

So, what, BIS should get rid of mods/addons?

minimalaco · December 8, 2009

Arma2 + Comunity modding = EPIC WIN

Arma2 Vanilla = Boring

appears that the community does the work that developers should do. and I do not just my opinion. is that 99.9% of the people I know think so.

froggyluv · June 19, 2006

Arma2 + Comunity modding = EPIC WIN
Arma2 Vanilla = Boring

.

Maybe so but Arma 3 vanilla looks anything but boring. Hell, I'd trade my Arma 2 + All Da Mods for Arma 3 right now.

Minoza · August 17, 2009

Then you'll also like the new trees BIS are copying from BF3.

(check from 0:30 in the video)
I don't think BIS is copying from BF3. They are just implementing new additions that are standard for the industry now. Every game has ragdolls nowadays. The floating camera is probably just a toned down setting of headblob. It's still WIP and i'm sure we can choose our own sensitivity for headblob again. The lightning system is much better then in BF3. You dont even have a sun in BF3. It's just part of the skybox, just like the clouds are part of the skybox. BIS lightning is nothing like BF3 lightning. BIS lightning is much better.

I think the new lightning system in arma3 is amazing. How the light really changes depending on the weather condition or whether the sun is hiding behind an actual volumetric cloud.

OT: I still enjoy playing ARMA2CO vanilla. You read that correctly, vanilla. The game is good enough for me in vanilla and I'm sure that with all the additions A3 will get, A3 vanilla will be enjoyable to. It feels authentic, it is fun to play and I don't really miss something. They have added enough for ARMA2CO to be fun to play.

Why would you want to comment lighting in BF3 when you obviously have no idea what it's like? Basically, a BIS dev already confirmed they would like to implement lighting system like in BF3, but you seem to be ahead of it already.

metalcraze · February 1, 2009

Maybe so but Arma 3 vanilla looks anything but boring. Hell, I'd trade my Arma 2 + All Da Mods for Arma 3 right now.

It looks? It looks like graphics got improved - true that. BIS didn't show a single gameplay improvement thus far.

Or are we talking about graphics determining if the game is less boring?

PuFu · February 17, 2007

Why would you want to comment lighting in BF3 when you obviously have no idea what it's like? Basically, a BIS dev already confirmed they would like to implement lighting system like in BF3, but you seem to be ahead of it already.

please refrain from talking about stuff you know very little about, just by watching some youtube videos. deffered lighting is not available just in BF3. Same goes for the baked light in the scene. The main difference is that while in BF3 there are no moving lights such as sun or moon, A3 has both.

Frostbyte3 while from a technological POV it's a pretty nice engine, does not bring many improvements to the table, especially when comparing with UE2 (or the upcoming UE3) or cryengine2.

They are using a lot of post processing filters to achieve the final results (not as if that is a bad thing).

It looks? It looks like graphics got improved - true that. BIS didn't show a single gameplay improvement thus far.
Or are we talking about graphics determining if the game is less boring?

They are showing their engine new technology and improvements. Lighting is one of those. You keep coming back saying that BIS didn't show you ACE gameplay in A3. Have some patience and stop spamming the same shit in all the threads.

froggyluv · June 19, 2006

It looks? It looks like graphics got improved - true that. BIS didn't show a single gameplay improvement thus far.
Or are we talking about graphics determining if the game is less boring?

Whats 'moar fun' or less boring is purely subjective and I see no point in creating an argument out of it. Smoother animations, Physx enabled vehicles, scuba and ragdoll I attribute to both graphics and gameplay. Of course I also want to know whats happening with any AI improvements and hopefully we'll get some (any) info at E3.

Minoza · August 17, 2009

please refrain from talking about stuff you know very little about, just by watching some youtube videos. deffered lighting is not available just in BF3. Same goes for the baked light in the scene. The main difference is that while in BF3 there are no moving lights such as sun or moon, A3 has both.
Frostbyte3 while from a technological POV it's a pretty nice engine, does not bring many improvements to the table, especially when comparing with UE2 (or the upcoming UE3) or cryengine2.

They are using a lot of post processing filters to achieve the final results (not as if that is a bad thing).

They are showing their engine new technology and improvements. Lighting is one of those. You keep coming back saying that BIS didn't show you ACE gameplay in A3. Have some patience and stop spamming the same shit in all the threads.

Another pointless rant, just like your usual comments.

You might wanna check this out:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5011/nvidiaea-posts-battlefield-3-graphics-tech-talk

Also, yeah, they use deferred lighting, and actually have a functional real-time radiosity solution, as well as pre-baked terrain, not sure about terrain solution. My guess would be World Machine in combination with some sculpting tool or maybe even their own generator. There's another demo where you can see radiosity in action:

I don't see a point of having dynamic sun and moon in scenarios like those in BF3, that doesn't make sense, but that doesn't mean engine is not capable of it... Dynamic lights are being used in BF3, as well as particles, which both can cast and receive light and shadows (check the first video for that).

Btw. Latest Crysis 2 SDK brings in fun stuff, but their real time global illumination solution is a comedy compared to BF3's. Neither is comparable to the real GI solution though.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Minoza

PuFu · February 17, 2007

Another pointless rant, just like your usual comments.

hmm, pointless you say.

You might wanna check this out:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5011/nvidiaea-posts-battlefield-3-graphics-tech-talk

yeah, i have seen those when back when they hit the web. What is your point again?

Also, yeah, they use deferred lighting, and actually have a functional real-time radiosity solution, as well as pre-baked terrain, not sure about terrain solution. My guess would be World Machine in combination with some sculpting tool or maybe even their own generator. There's another demo where you can see radiosity in action:

the radiosity solution you talk about is afaik, available only for static lights. This is by no means GI. Here, i might be wrong though.

I don't see a point of having dynamic sun and moon in scenarios like those in BF3, that doesn't make sense, but that doesn't mean engine is not capable of it... Dynamic lights are being used in BF3, as well as particles, which both can cast and receive light and shadows (check the first video for that).

I don't see the point in having dynamic sun and moon unless you are able to change the time of play, which you can't. The engine "should" be capable of it, but that was not the point i was trying to make.

BIS said that deffered shading is high on their list, and not that they wanna bring BF3 lighting solution in A3. There is a subtle difference here.

Just last week, i had a run down through autodesk Beast at the office, for a possible project. So i guess i know i have a pretty good idea about RT GI/raytracing in game engines, don't you think?

Btw. Latest Crysis 2 SDK brings in fun stuff, but their real time global illumination solution is a comedy compared to BF3's. Neither is comparable to the real GI solution though.

There is no real GI solution possible in game engines yet. Not even Enlighten (used for BF3) does it to the extent i think of when i say GI (rendering engines such as Vray, Brazil, MentalRay, RenderMan etc etc).

I didn't have the opportunity to touch anything besides said beast and gile though...

from Enlighten FAQ:

Enlighten performs a precompute on the static geometry in the scene. Once this is completed the scene can be re-lit, re-textured and re-coloured dynamically. Typical precompute times are 1-2 minutes per system. The precompute can be distributed across multiple nodes.

Enlighten handles indirect lighting only, and does not deal with the shadowing of direct lighting. It can therefore be used alongside your current shadowing pipeline.

Dynamic objects pick up radiosity so naturally fit into their world. They do not contribute to radiosity, though than can be simulated if necessary.

If you need a precompute, and dynamic objects do not contribute to radiosity, the solution is only a faked/baked GI, not RT GI as you advertised it. Again, not that there is anything wrong with this middleground for RT rendering engines such as game engines...

But i think we are getting way oftopic here will all the technical details...

Edited May 27, 2012 by PuFu

HomerPepsi · July 30, 2010

Regarding OP:

OFP CWC - Played mostly vanilla because I lived on a farm and only had a 28k modem. Only after 2003 (when I got cable) did I really get into the mods.

OFP Resistance - Played Vanilla for same reason

ArmA, ArmA 2, ArmA 2: OA - Played through the campaigns in vanilla, then added mods as they became available.

ArmA 3 - I definitely intend to play it vanilla at release, obviously as mod selection is thin during the initial weeks.

I just hope the campaign is more along the lines of CWC. Glorious, glorious CWC. Why is it's style/story so hard to top?

Minoza · August 17, 2009

hmm, pointless you say.
yeah, i have seen those when back when they hit the web. What is your point again?

the radiosity solution you talk about is afaik, available only for static lights. This is by no means GI. Here, i might be wrong though.

I don't see the point in having dynamic sun and moon unless you are able to change the time of play, which you can't. The engine "should" be capable of it, but that was not the point i was trying to make.

BIS said that deffered shading is high on their list, and not that they wanna bring BF3 lighting solution in A3. There is a subtle difference here.

Just last week, i had a run down through autodesk Beast at the office, for a possible project. So i guess i know i have a pretty good idea about RT GI/raytracing in game engines, don't you think?

There is no real GI solution possible in game engines yet. Not even Enlighten (used for BF3) does it to the extent i think of when i say GI (rendering engines such as Vray, Brazil, MentalRay, RenderMan etc etc).

I didn't have the opportunity to touch anything besides said beast and gile though...

from Enlighten FAQ:

If you need a precompute, and dynamic objects do not contribute to radiosity, the solution is only a faked/baked GI, not RT GI as you advertised it. Again, not that there is anything wrong with this middleground for RT rendering engines such as game engines...

But i think we are getting way oftopic here will all the technical details...

That's why I didn't go into details and said "BIS wishes BF3 like lighting system". I might have formed my sentence in a wrong way. Guy I answered to stated that Arma 3 lighting solution is superior to BF3's, which simply isn't true. When I was talking about real GI solutions, I didn't even have games in mind, I was thinking more V-Ray like and the rest you already mentioned. Regarding dynamic GI, you can see it in the second video I posted, near end if I'm not mistaken.

Beast? In our office, we use our own solutions. :yay:

Btw. only reason I replied is because you claimed I have no idea what I'm talking about, which is wrong since that's the stuff I'm working on every day, it's my job.