What's the point of playing Vanilla Style?

[metalcraze 290]

There has to be some limit stopping players from taking a sniper rifle like M107 and a heavier rocket launcher and running with them forever.

This limit is realistic fatigue want it or not.

Since BIS absolutely needs to let go of the slot system in backpacks and use the weight system instead like ACE does.

It's also silly how I can carry a rifle, have slots full of ammo and also carry a backpack with 2 sniper rifles in it (or full of other stuff) and not ever get tired from running.

.

Eh eh - but CiA plays (or played at least) with AI mods and of course CWR2 and FDF.

Edited May 25, 2012 by metalcraze

[Shatter3D_S0uL 1]

Practice.Before playing with mods that take things further,vanilla style offers you the opportunity to practice and familiarize yourself with the game's gameplay and mechanisms.

[Variable 322]

Eh eh - but CiA plays (or played at least) with AI mods and of course CWR2 and FDF.

That's true but a high percentage of the videos is of vanilla missions, as we play a lot of these. I don't think they are any worse. It all depends on the mission maker anyway, and vanilla has enough content to facilitate for great missions.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That's true but a high percentage of the videos is of vanilla missions, as we play a lot of these. I don't think they are any worse. It all depends on the mission maker anyway, and vanilla has enough content to facilitate for great missions.

That's all fine and dandy while you're playing co-op against dumbo bots and you can afford the luxury of doing all the standard comms, while flying, say, an Apache AH-64 and all other miscellaneous procedure just before you hit your TAB and then click for the kill. Repeat 8 (12) times till all bots are dead.

This.Does.Not.Work.In.Pvp

ACE remedies that, along with many other things, since there wasn't any semblance of balance in vanilla: no flares, Kamov's Vikhr missiles targetting air, TAB+CLICK, point+click and so forth.

Arcade-ish. ;)

[celery 8]

This.Does.Not.Work.In.Pvp

ACE remedies that

I have a lot of experience from pvp tournaments using ACE. They never worked very well because of all the hassle with key config, earplugs, clumsy manual weapon resting, 3 kinds of medicine, unconscious state that basically forced you to disgrace bodies and most of all stamina that makes you kiss Mother Earth some 300 meters after you start moving all the while actual thinking people are out to get you.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I have a lot of experience from pvp tournaments using ACE. They never worked very well because of all the hassle with key config, earplugs, clumsy manual weapon resting, 3 kinds of medicine, unconscious state that basically forced you to disgrace bodies and most of all stamina that makes you kiss Mother Earth some 300 meters after you start moving all the while actual thinking people are out to get you.

You're probably talking DM there. Sure, you need your opponent dead in such circumstances quick & hard; exit bullet wounds, body armour simulation, medications, soft tissue damage (as compared to organ rupture) - what's that, eh? ;)

Try playing Warfare with vanilla, a single player in a TAB-clicking roflcopter using these legit game mechanics can make the whole server go rage-quit. Even TGs TvT maps have always used ACE since Armed Assault 1.

[celery 8]

You're probably talking DM there. Sure, you need your opponent dead in such circumstances quick & hard; exit bullet wounds, body armour simulation, medications, soft tissue damage (as compared to organ rupture) - what's that, eh? ;)

Try playing Warfare with vanilla, a single player using the game mechanics can make the whole server go rage-quit. Even TGs TvT maps have always used ACE since Armed Assault 1.

No, I am talking about large-scale tournaments with 40-100 players playing the same mission.

[[evo] dan 79]

I hope they add the TOH Hinds weapons system with a few tweaks (like fixing the missiles) as it is a much better system then the arma system (no tab lock fire, you actually have to guide them like in ACE) and it is less complicated to use then ACE, although it still does require some skill in order to be able to hit a target from 2km away whilst moving in.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

No, I am talking about large-scale tournaments with 40-100 players playing the same mission.

Those missions being TvT, which is essentially the same thing as DM - quick & hard, 300 metre range engagements on average, couple of air/armour assets - I've played those.

You want to throw out ACE's wound system along with meds and the unconscious state in near-death situations just because you don't want to go around looking at dead bodies and double tapping them, making sure they're truly dead?

That's real war, if I ever saw one - making sure your enemy is DEAD and not relying on railgun projectile ballistics and quick-scoping in vanilla.

[celery 8]

Those missions being TvT, which is essentially the same thing as DM - quick & hard, 300 metre range engagements on average, couple of air/armour assets - I've played those.

You want to throw out ACE's wound system along with meds and the unconscious state in near-death situations just because you don't want to go around looking at dead bodies and double tapping them, making sure they're truly dead?

That's real war, if I ever saw one - making sure your enemy is DEAD and not relying on railgun projectile ballistics and quick-scoping in vanilla.

The pvp is quick and hard because you're going against a players-only enemy force, and they know how to play the game and make you dead. Calling it deathmatch is a very weird statement.

The medicine system and unconscious players made the gameplay just that much more tedious. There is nothing realistic nor gameplay-enhancing in getting shot to the point of unconsciousness and imminent death (=worse off than with vanilla wounding) only to come back to 100% with the use of a bag of morphine and heart drugs. It basically just introduced a gameplay element of scavening a respectable amount of morphine from dead enemies, and more fiddling with the UI when you had to heal someone, end result staying the same with more time wasted on frivolous things.

The pvp experience with ACE was simply tedious, clunky and frustrating.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

The pvp is quick and hard because you're going against a players-only enemy force, and they know how to play the game and make you dead. Calling it deathmatch is a very weird statement.

It is a deathmatch if you're placed into an artificial position of artificial construct and KILL or be KILLED is expected of you within 5 minutes of the start of the game.

The medicine system and unconscious players made the gameplay just that much more tedious. There is nothing realistic nor gameplay-enhancing in getting shot to the point of unconsciousness and imminent death (=worse off than with vanilla wounding) only to come back to 100% with the use of a bag of morphine and heart drugs. It basically just introduced a gameplay element of scavening a respectable amount of morphine from dead enemies, and more fiddling with the UI when you had to heal someone, end result staying the same with more time wasted on frivolous things.

The pvp experience with ACE was simply tedious, clunky and frustrating.

Remove the morphine, you can always leave out the tedious bits, even AT back-blast! What we're dealing with here is CORE gameplay: armour simulation, infantry states (tired, wounded, near-death, unconscious, DEAD) and game balance when it comes to things like TAB-Click.

I don't want to see ArmA 3 the same as Arma 2 had been post-release in terms of online (pvp) balance.

[celery 8]

It is a deathmatch if you're placed into an artificial position of artificial construct and KILL or be KILLED is expected of you within 5 minutes of the start of the game.

What is an artificial position in an artificial construct in the tournaments I was talking about? How can you acquire a location without killing enemies within it and ones that are out to stop you from accomplishing that? Do you deliberately spare enemies that could compromise your mission in coop? Either way, your deathmatch argument (whatever it's meant to argue for/against) is pointless because a deathmatch is where the only victory condition is to have the most kills at the end of the game. Those tournaments were based on holding the most areas on the map by the end of the campaign that consisted of multiple battles over several weekends.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

What is an artificial position in an artificial construct in the tournaments I was talking about? How can you acquire a location without killing enemies within it and ones that are out to stop you from accomplishing that? Do you deliberately spare enemies that could compromise your mission in coop? Either way, your deathmatch argument (whatever it's meant to argue for/against) is pointless because a deathmatch is where the only victory condition is to have the most kills at the end of the game. Those tournaments were based on holding the most areas on the map by the end of the campaign that consisted of multiple battles over several weekends.

This tournament you speak of is in such a minority that it only showed up on weekend nights in the server list and is totally irrelevant to the discussion when viewed through the prism of ACE.

I have nothing more to add, as the numbers seem to speak for themselves: more DayZ (de facto) copies sold in the first two months of its release, as compared to ArmA 2 in its first month. Everything from this point onward is predictable for us PVP folks: graphics and aesthetics get tailored for DayZ crowd and we get left with Armed Assault 1 game mechanics. Step Over action doesn't count as an upgrade.

Business is business, I will adapt to such a loss, if it does indeed happen. :rolleyes:

P.S. The aforementioned mod proves that herpaderps can play ArmA, just not in the way it had been played since OFP, since apparently AD disorders are a benefit in a post-apocalyptic 'zed' world.

[celery 8]

This tournament you speak of is in such a minority that it only showed up on weekend nights in the server list and is totally irrelevant to the discussion when viewed through the prism of ACE.

Whatever you say. My point stands: ACE is in many cases a hindrance to pvp. Removing alt-tab targeting hardly weighs there because an abundance of guided missiles would make a single asset matter too much in any case, hence very few pvp missions designed to entertain the whole server instead of just the pilots leave such weapons in the available vehicles.

[maturin 12]

You work for BIS? Because you sound like a newb whining about the unfair AI.

hassle with key config

So you didn't set up the mod right. Lots of mods have userconfig menus, and ACE's TWO extra keys is nothing compared to the nightmare of the vanilla controls menu that is barely in English.

, earplugs,

So wear them? They show up automatically, and aren't even needed for AT weapons or MGs in quick bursts.

clumsy manual weapon resting,

Um, so don't fucking use it?

3 kinds of medicine, unconscious state that basically forced you to disgrace bodies

Also optional.

and most of all stamina that makes you kiss Mother Earth some 300 meters after you start moving all the while actual thinking people are out to get you.

So don't run with the CoD Javelin+M107 loadout. If you keep your weight under 30kg, you will be able to run almost indefinitely, and far enough for any PvP game.

Enough nitpicking and pretending that personal preference is some big gameplay flaw.

[LeeManatee 4]

You work for BIS? Because you sound like a newb whining about the unfair AI.

So you didn't set up the mod right. Lots of mods have userconfig menus, and ACE's TWO extra keys is nothing compared to the nightmare of the vanilla controls menu that is barely in English.

So wear them? They show up automatically, and aren't even needed for AT weapons or MGs in quick bursts.

Um, so don't fucking use it?

Also optional.

So don't run with the CoD Javelin+M107 loadout. If you keep your weight under 30kg, you will be able to run almost indefinitely, and far enough for any PvP game.

Enough nitpicking and pretending that personal preference is some big gameplay flaw.

i may add only one remark:

clumsy manual weapon resting,

then do it better. ace team atleast tried and implemented it.

you are dev afterall.

[celery 8]

You work for BIS? Because you sound like a newb whining about the unfair AI.

I responded to a post implying that ACE is the solution to vanilla pvp's problems. Furthermore, I elaborated on my views. You however I only see being a dick for no reason.

So you didn't set up the mod right. Lots of mods have userconfig menus, and ACE's TWO extra keys is nothing compared to the nightmare of the vanilla controls menu that is barely in English.

You have to edit an external file and give it your ingame nick and assign keys to actions there. That is a nuisance.

So wear them? They show up automatically, and aren't even needed for AT weapons or MGs in quick bursts.

You missed the point. It's the added feature that introduces the effect of going deaf unless you fiddle with earplugs that in turn invade your eardrums that's the problem. It's a nuisance.

Um, so don't fucking use it?

The recoil gets stupid if you don't set up your bipod that already appears to be in the ready position. It's a nuisance.

Also optional.

Of course it is. How stupid of me, I should have just not used all that medicine.

So don't run with the CoD Javelin+M107 loadout. If you keep your weight under 30kg, you will be able to run almost indefinitely, and far enough for any PvP game.

I was actually relieving myself of any extra grenades, secondary weapons and non-totally essential magazines every time I respawned. The stamina was still a big issue and a nuisance.

Enough nitpicking and pretending that personal preference is some big gameplay flaw.

Once you see the irony, it's already too late. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

then do it better. ace team atleast tried and implemented it.

you are dev afterall.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Arma 2 do that automatically? Your recoil decreases considerably when you lie down with your bipod-equipped weapon. ACE made it manual and with very limited turning angles.

[metalcraze 290]

The irony is that you as a dev strongly oppose new ideas that make sense.

There's only so many times you can buy people with videos showcasing nothing but graphics.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Arma 2 do that automatically? Your recoil decreases considerably when you lie down with your bipod-equipped weapon. ACE made it manual and with very limited turning angles.

You are wrong. Recoil in ACE also gets reduced in lower stances. But does it reduce in vanilla when you put your weapon over wall or a window frame? Of course not.

I'm sorry, this may be harsh and all but to me judging from all the info I read on ArmA3 it looks like the future for the series will be:

"We haven't improved anything in our "military simulation". No wind. No realistic weapon sway, some random convulsions instead. Rockets still fly Unreal Tournament style (even though they didn't in OFP). You can still run with M107 and Jav forever. AT4 can be reloaded. NVGs are like FullHD. BUT LOOK AT TEH GRAPHIX IN ARMA3. And a tacticool pace which looks like a floating camera out of cow doody"

Edited May 25, 2012 by metalcraze

[LeeManatee 4]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Arma 2 do that automatically? Your recoil decreases considerably when you lie down with your bipod-equipped weapon. ACE made it manual and with very limited turning angles.

you are wrong. there is no weapon resting when you are crouching/standing next to window/object.

and not only machineguns, but any kind of rifles

and pressing a button to bipod weapon is kinda usual thing even for mainstream shooters

so i can't get your point entirely.

I was actually relieving myself of any extra grenades, secondary weapons and non-totally essential magazines every time I respawned. The stamina was still a big issue and a nuisance.

download and upade ace2 now and try. stamina issues presented in ace1, but ace2 fatique system is rather forgiving

prejudging things is not really a good idea. saying someth like "ace stamina is horrible" by your old experience without trying ace2 now is the same as saying "arma 2 is extremely buggy" without trying new updates. but hey, it still got lots of stuff to fix.

Edited May 25, 2012 by n7snk

[celery 8]

you are wrong. there is no weapon resting when you are crouching/standing next to window/object.

That is not the kind of thing I was talking about. The added feature that your machine gun with its bipod firmly on the ground sprays all over the place until you press a weapon resting key is an annoyance in pvp games. The context, as I believe, is still the effect ACE has on pvp gameplay. I'm sure it's totally awesome in coop where you're not in so much of a hurry and danger.

[LeeManatee 4]

That is not the kind of thing I was talking about. The added feature that your machine gun with its bipod firmly on the ground sprays all over the place until you press a weapon resting key is an annoyance in pvp games. The context, as I believe, is still the effect ACE has on pvp gameplay. I'm sure it's totally awesome in coop where you're not in so much of a hurry and danger.

excuse me, but even in casual shooters like day of defeat sourse or red orchestra you press key to bipod a weapon, even if you are on ground, and people alright with it.

if you don't have animation for bipoding and weapon model is always with bipod on, thats the problem of model, but not the problem of realisation of feature in ace mod.

[celery 8]

excuse me

As I said, it - among the other things I listed - made the pvp experience in the ACE using tournament all the more tedious. Please accept or ignore the fact that I am of that opinion, and do not lecture me.

[-Coulum- 35]

That is not the kind of thing I was talking about. The added feature that your machine gun with its bipod firmly on the ground sprays all over the place until you press a weapon resting key is an annoyance in pvp games.

You automatically deploy a bipod in vanilla? I didn't thinks so but its been a while since i have played vanilla. As far as I knew though you simply get the smae degree of recoil as you would with a normal weapon.

Its seems that several of the things you think makes ace bad for pvp are actually the exact cause people want ace to be implemented in the vanilla game.

clumsy manual weapon resting,

Yes it is clumsy. Thats why we want BI to implement it in the base game and make it not clumsy.

They never worked very well because of all the hassle with key config,

If ace were part of the vanilla game this wouldn't be a problem.

and most of all stamina that makes you kiss Mother Earth some 300 meters after you start moving all the while actual thinking people are out to get you

I personally find the stamina system annoying to... but it is better than what's in vanilla... which is why many people think arma 3 should implement its own stamina system that is even better than ace's (and is realistic unlike vanilla).

There is nothing realistic nor gameplay-enhancing in getting shot to the point of unconsciousness and imminent death (=worse off than with vanilla wounding) only to come back to 100% with the use of a bag of morphine and heart drugs.

I have to agree with this though. Although I love the detail ace has taken and the variance in wounds, I find it far to forgiving and I find the medical system a joke. ACE2, the ultimate realism mod, where you can get shot up with infinite amount of morphine, epinephrine and even bullets and still be combat effective... DAPMAN's first aid or even vanilla, although not as complex, represent the combat effectiveness of someon who has been shot far better in my opinion.

Enough nitpicking and pretending that personal preference is some big gameplay flaw.

This is what I think everyone here is forgetting and needs to keep in mind. I personally would love for arma to be ultrarealistic and include many ace features, but there are others who don't feel this way and we must respect that. I know I would hate it if Arma 3 was totally focused on dayz... many people seem to think the same about ace.

That being said I think there are some features from a variety of mods that can be added or improved upon in vanilla that almost everyone can agree on.

Better Ai

Proper Weapon Resting

Better sounds

Better particle effects

I wan to add wind on there but apparently many think that that's to complex...

Let BI work on those universal issues, and then make it easier to mod new things in, that way everyone will be happy playing with there personal variant of the game. It is unfortunate that we as a community can't agree on one particular play style for arma but it is perfectly reasonable and expected and we must respect that.

Edited May 25, 2012 by -Coulum-

[LeeManatee 4]

As I said, it - among the other things I listed - made the pvp experience in the ACE using tournament all the more tedious. Please accept or ignore the fact that I am of that opinion, and do not lecture me.

ace wounding system can be disabled when you create a mission, so this may solve your "tvt tournament issue" fatique system was improved looong time ago, and the weapon resting is just fine. if BI will come up with something better - awesome.

so far:

wounding and drag animation was introduced in ace1 mod.

was introduced later in arma 2

backpacks were introduced in ace 1 mod and werent dependable on character models

were introduced after arma 2 relise with DLC. (pmc if my memory serves me well)

chemlights were introduced in ace2 mod

were introduced for arma 3

so we should wait more and more for new features to get implemented and for ace team to add it again and again?

also a question: what exacly you are responsible for as dev?

Edited May 25, 2012 by n7snk

[celery 8]

You automatically deploy a bipod in vanilla? I didn't thinks so but its been a while since i have played vanilla. As far as I knew though you simply get the smae degree of recoil as you would with a normal weapon.

Comparing AK-74 and RPK-74 with no mods is the best way to check it out in practise.