AI Improvement

[maturin 12]

Can GPU pathfinding be seamlessly integrated with the very complex majority of AI functions that will always remain on the CPU? Or is it just good for fast, fluid AI that doesn't actually have a brain to make decisions about tactics, orders, formations, moral, etc?

[Serclaes 0]

A graphics card is extremely good at calculating stuff.

One of the big problems right now is to have multi layered maps. If you have the example of a road network it's rather easy: one layer for actual roads, one layer for modifiers (small road to highway) and one layer for traffic speed. Now Imagine there are roads crisscrossing like 0.25m apart, forming a grid with 0.25mx0.25m squares. the intersections are called nodes. Right now the AI in arma can prefer roads to terrain, prefer cover to open field, avoid areas under fire, circle around moving(or destroyed) objects (requires constant update of grid) and select apropriate ways for its size (infantry, tank) or way to move (plane/helicopter). Maybe something else I forgot.

Each is one layer added to the node. But now you could choose: Want to stay stealthy and covered => compute a layer favorising woods, depressions etc to move. Want a good firing position? It's a little more tricky since it requires view but you could to that.

Now you have to find the best way along the nodes, which is very expensive by itself. But If you had a lot of processors one could create situation based layers that modify nodes accordingly and then calculate a lot of ways and sort them out in the end.

So to answer you question, I think you could put off a lot on the GPU. But basic tactics would have to remain "random" as they are now or stay on the CPU. At least that is my hopefully educated guess.

Edit: Maybe easier to understand this: Finding a stealthy way is for GPU, determining whether to be stealthy or not for CPU.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Serclaes

[Scoggs 1]

A graphics card is extremely good at calculating stuff.

One of the big problems right now is to have multi layered maps. If you have the example of a road network it's rather easy: one layer for actual roads, one layer for modifiers (small road to highway) and one layer for traffic speed. Now Imagine there are roads crisscrossing like 0.25m apart, forming a grid with 0.25mx0.25m squares. the intersections are called nodes. Right now the AI in arma can prefer roads to terrain, prefer cover to open field, avoid areas under fire, circle around moving(or destroyed) objects (requires constant update of grid) and select apropriate ways for its size (infantry, tank) or way to move (plane/helicopter). Maybe something else I forgot.

Each is one layer added to the node. But now you could choose: Want to stay stealthy and covered => compute a layer favorising woods, depressions etc to move. Want a good firing position? It's a little more tricky since it requires view but you could to that.

Now you have to find the best way along the nodes, which is very expensive by itself. But If you had a lot of processors one could create situation based layers that modify nodes accordingly and then calculate a lot of ways and sort them out in the end.

So to answer you question, I think you could put off a lot on the GPU. But basic tactics would have to remain "random" as they are now or stay on the CPU. At least that is my hopefully educated guess.

Edit: Maybe easier to understand this: Finding a stealthy way is for GPU, determining whether to be stealthy or not for CPU.

Well I think spreading the two in between the gpu and cpu would help a lot. Another great thing about GPU's is that they are so powerfull when it comes to parallel processing. Maybe could help with more complex ai or more ai in general. Or both.

At the same time I have no idea what I am talking about.

That and you can make server core based pc's nowadays that have gpu slots. Some EVGA bpard does that.

I think if they could find a way to use the cuda cores with ai our gameplay would be massively changed.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Scoggs

[atony 1]

I'm sure the ai will improve slightly but mods will improve them even more

[wipman 1]

Hi, an improvement that i hope to see... is make the AI choose the right weapon for the right target, no more RPG on infantry unless it be a Thermo Baric Round on an objective inside a hard cover (with a roof), also no more main weapon to handgun swap when they reach the 10m range of a target; they should first eliminate the close visual threats and then swap to the handgun if they "guess" that there could be more threads. I also wish that they follow SRT entry & cleaning tactics inside buildings, with close formations and checking the fire sectors, they should use the grenade launchers againist soft targets like jeep alike vehicles and light armoured APCs, shoot at critical points (each vehicle is different) and be capable of coordinate with other friendly units that could join the party if they're arround; if i see you men going to there... i gonna take my men and go for the other side, using the Tac-Coms when i should, hand signals or voice.

On a future conflic, i would spect every faction to have a good air support, recovery vehicles, CAS and Arti support aside Med-Evac and of course reinforcements and Evac; with this you could ambush the AI and retreat leaving a FAC team on the AO and when their recovery vehicles or the reinforcements arrive... then call for your own CAS and Arti to bury those damn dirty AIs on virtual lead and then call back the grunts that'd stopped that contingent. This would be an improvement over the actual AI, IMO; but's very hard to get. Let's C ya

[DomZ 15]

Infantry should get out of view of targets that they cannot fight effectively. For example, infantry without AT weapons should get out of visual sight of armoured vehicles. This could be more generally applied to any type of unit that cannot effectively engage another. This is more critical at close range in close environments. It would also be affected by the engagement range of weapons at long range.

Making AI infantry being able to fight and hide in buildings, or vehicles hide in sheds would make this work much more effectively.

[-Coulum- 35]

Infantry should get out of view of targets that they cannot fight effectively. For example, infantry without AT weapons should get out of visual sight of armoured vehicles. This could be more generally applied to any type of unit that cannot effectively engage another. This is more critical at close range in close environments. It would also be affected by the engagement range of weapons at long range.

Making AI infantry being able to fight and hide in buildings, or vehicles hide in sheds would make this work much more effectively.

AI being able to stay out of sight of a given enemy would be absolutely fantastic. Doesn't matter if it is armour infantry or air, this is the ai's biggest problem when it comes to survivability. And telling them when to do so (when they aren't properly equipped/outnumbered/under heavy fire etc.) probably wouldn't be that much of a problem - even mods could do that. Its just telling them how that's the problem - not only would it be difficult, but it could potentially be extremely system intensive.

I'm really looking forward to testing out the ai's new configs in arma 3, especially their spotting ability and aiming ability. My hope is that they are both more dynamic and the latter is more dependant on the former. I also hope BIS eliminate/decrease the additional knows-about ai automatically gain about your location when you kill/wound one of there squad mates (currently its usually enough to kill you within a couple seconds if you aren't near some hard cover). I am tired of ambushing armour from dense concealment only to be absolutely annihilated by the dismounting crew as soon as their feet hit the ground.

[jake_krieger 10]

Just intergrate everything the latest ASR AI mod does to ARMA 2 and im happy !

[Vigil Vindex 64]

Just intergrate everything the latest ASR AI mod does to ARMA 2 and im happy !

^^ This! I think I will be disappointed if Arma 3 does not at least match or exceed the good AI mods available for Arma 2. ASRAI, TPWCAS with LOS and the old Zeus all seem to have brought something that was missing from the AI.

[fragmachine 12]

If ArmA games are infantry-centric - or better word - focused - then they should really focus on improving CQB, infiltrating buildings, moving thorought urbanised areas and AI understanding dangers the urbanised area can cause. I think that revamped animations can help alot with infantry moving in buidlings.

[DeclaredEvol 10]

I request sort of a Squad based Path Finding skill in Buildings... sort of like how they operate in Formations but more CQB Savvy. I loved seeing this photo, and thinking this think was going to choke up a bit in the close range combat area.

[fragmachine 12]

Well there's still a hope as BIS said they improving AI, revamping animations etc... In some interview i heard an question about AI making better use of buildings etc.

I think its this vid(6.50):

WARNING: contains an evasive answer!

[.Taffy 10]

Thanks for posting that video fragmachine, it contained a point that I had been trying to recall for some time where it was that I had heard/read it. Around the time you refer to Jay says that they've reduced the amount of times the AI recalculates their cover position, improving performance and stopping them constantly shifting about. I guess what remains to be seen is wether this creates the appearance of smarter AI moving a little more fluidly or turns them all into sitting ducks, waiting around in poor cover to be shot.

[REDFORActual 10]

Great news the AI are being smartened.

[CriminalMinds 10]

Could you please prove your argument? Where's the news? Have I missed something?

Edited February 21, 2013 by CriminalMinds

[rye1 22]

I request sort of a Squad based Path Finding skill in Buildings... sort of like how they operate in Formations but more CQB Savvy. I loved seeing this photo, and thinking this think was going to choke up a bit in the close range combat area.

I kind of talked about this in PM with someone earlier. I would like them to be able to follow my movement, or me take control of the AI and make them do something. It would be great if you could then link that in with a timer, a specific point or object like a doorway for example in CQB. Unfortunately it can't be done currently, and changing aspects about them doesn't seem to work because the AI just 'ignore it'. I get what you mean though, forgetting formations and going for entry techniques in CQB. They are kind of like 'formations' but also not!

[chortles 263]

Thanks for posting that video fragmachine, it contained a point that I had been trying to recall for some time where it was that I had heard/read it. Around the time you refer to Jay says that they've reduced the amount of times the AI recalculates their cover position, improving performance and stopping them constantly shifting about. I guess what remains to be seen is wether this creates the appearance of smarter AI moving a little more fluidly or turns them all into sitting ducks, waiting around in poor cover to be shot.

If I recall correctly, he mentioned during E3 that during development of PMC the devs had found that on Zargabad the AI was evaluating everything (even stuff that at first glance a trained soldier might know was inappropriate) as cover, thus slowing down the decision-making process/actions and them seeming to act/move extremely slowly.

The issue I have for AI and entry techniques is the matter of how to handle breaches, which in shooters other than Rainbow Six were (come MW2) mostly scripted sequences... painfully obviously so, and Warfighter the worst of all for first giving one hope that it might be different in the form of the different breaching methods, only for every door to be vulnerable to a breacher's kick... which is also faster than any other breaching method.

[rye1 22]

The issue I have for AI and entry techniques is the matter of how to handle breaches, which in shooters other than Rainbow Six were (come MW2) mostly scripted sequences... painfully obviously so, and Warfighter the worst of all for first giving one hope that it might be different in the form of the different breaching methods, only for every door to be vulnerable to a breacher's kick... which is also faster than any other breaching method.

That is a natural concern but currently how do they handle doors? They don't. They just walk through them, I've seen AI walk through walls. Breaching methods on the other hand is a different issue, opening a door shouldn't be hard for the AI. I don't think we'll see any need for actual breaching - the use of any kind of explosive ordnance, breaching equipment or anything. At best I think we'd just see the door open randomly!

[OChristie 0]

As far as I know the AI has had a massive improvement, it is starting to do a bit of the hard work!

[DeclaredEvol 10]

Whether or not the game gets into details like Entry tactics, I am not really bothered by that anymore. I know the game will still lack that quality, but I think the AI should definitely run through a few algorithms before directly walking into a room. I watch them walking into rooms with their guard down and getting shot dead... but in other cases... once it clears into a room... it should certainly find a corner to sit in or giving the possibility for the AI stand or peek into a window. ALSO, most importantly the AI should cover door ways. Simply by adding a small invisible Object Position at the door giving the AI a place to watch for enemies. Path finding is mostly to do with simple Vectors, and a bunch of Flow Control logic. The Programmers should certainly take my word for it, this can improve the game dramatically. And if it isn't included in the release of ArmA 3, I'll freaking do it.

It's quite a turn off seeing AI walk into rooms mindlessly like Rye said, and this is absolutely a nightmare to see in ArmA 3. I really could not imagine such a good looking game, having AI that STILL does that lol

Edited February 22, 2013 by DeclaredEvol

[ProfTournesol 956]

Whether or not the game gets into details like Entry tactics, I am not really bothered by that anymore. I know the game will still lack that quality, but I think the AI should definitely run through a few algorithms before directly walking into a room. I watch them walking into rooms with their guard down and getting shot dead... but in other cases... once it clears into a room... it should certainly find a corner to sit in. Instead of standing in the middle of the room playing Idle animations. This and making the AI stand or peek into a window. IMPORTANT, and this is ALL they truly have to do. And it would seriously make the towns and cities more effective places to make missions.

Yep, specific routines are definitely needed for urban / in house fights.

[-Coulum- 35]

That is a natural concern but currently how do they handle doors? They don't. They just walk through them, I've seen AI walk through walls. Breaching methods on the other hand is a different issue, opening a door shouldn't be hard for the AI. I don't think we'll see any need for actual breaching - the use of any kind of explosive ordnance, breaching equipment or anything. At best I think we'd just see the door open randomly!

Whether or not the game gets into details like Entry tactics, I am not really bothered by that anymore. I know the game will still lack that quality, but I think the AI should definitely run through a few algorithms before directly walking into a room. I watch them walking into rooms with their guard down and getting shot dead... but in other cases... once it clears into a room... it should certainly find a corner to sit in. Instead of standing in the middle of the room playing Idle animations. This and making the AI stand or peek into a window. IMPORTANT, and this is ALL they truly have to do. And it would seriously make the towns and cities more effective places to make missions.

Yeah before they can learn any sort of entry procedures they first need to be able to recognize a door for what it is. same for windows and corners. I would be happy to see ai with the CQ ability of a 10 year old playing with nerf guns. I think for now real tactics and procedures are kind of out of the question until the ai at least know the basic parts of a room and how they can be used (ie. leaning/shooting out a door/window) to help them live longer or kill the enemy.

The faster rotation speed of the ai in arma 3 should make them more deadly in CQB at least, even if they are still stupid.

[froggyluv 2136]

Yup, first doors and windows need stance/battle nodes from both inside and out. I've seen recent code that allows the AI to at least know it's inside of a structure (Das Attorney?) which is a huge improvement but we also need a primary master room node thats responsible for who is the room as well as whos directly outside of it to offer up smarter behaviors. For example if your squad of 4 is in the living room and an enemy is knownabout in the room directly North -take appropriate positions and action. If a room is clear of enemies the master room node would know this and send the team forward/backward/defensive or offensive window or door positions. Master room nodes could be counted so that a team of 12+ AI would only send a 3-4 man fireteam into a building with relative amount of rooms (nodes) while the rest take productive positions around the house.

The last thing is that all AI that are known to be indoors need to have a new set of behaviours under the Tab of Imminent Threat, in which they scan more frequently, move faster,adjust angles quicker and use appropriate stances. CQB would be majorly upgraded if these changes can make it in.

Edit: On top of this we also need a bullet counter similar to TPWCAS in that if an AI is attacking/defending from a window or door, huge volumes of fire from say a BMP should enact a Retreat behavior either to room cover/go upstairs or even exit via another door. That way we wont see AI acting stupid by looking cool at said opening all the while standing and getting murdered due to their inability to retreat or at least get a good posture/stance change.

Edited February 22, 2013 by froggyluv

[fragmachine 12]

If ai dont react well indoors because of reasons mentioned by JC - i hope that redefining how AI take into cover etc will help them to act smarter in buildings, but for now i really cant see how it would help (beside overall gameplay). Just imagine how urban takes&holds would be improwed.

[rye1 22]

I would be happy to see ai with the CQ ability of a 10 year old playing with nerf guns..

I think you mean airsofters.

I agree, "entry techniques" aren't a way to go either. You can only "teach" a few basic entries to AI of which they could productively use.

Some seriously good ideas in this thread, but what could and will be transferred - no idea and unlikely to say the least.

If ai dont react well indoors because of reasons mentioned by JC - i hope that redefining how AI take into cover etc will help them to act smarter in buildings, but for now i really cant see how it would help (beside overall gameplay). Just imagine how urban takes&holds would be improwed.

Aslong as they don't try take cover when I'm their immediate threat, at about the distance where I could lick their nose. :o