AI Improvement

[Kuskov 1]

It would be great if the AI could be improved to use breaching equipment and tactics like the AI in SWAT 4. No other game even compares to the immersive feeling of breaching and clearing rooms with the AI in SWAT 4.

[rye1 21]

It would be great if the AI could be improved to use breaching equipment and tactics like the AI in SWAT 4. No other game even compares to the immersive feeling of breaching and clearing rooms with the AI in SWAT 4.

How would you make AI use it? ARMA is a big environment, it's not a few rooms and a door.

To be honest SWAT 4 is horrid for AI and horrid for immersion. Only someone with a vague idea of CQB says that it's good. :o It's nearly as worse as RVS.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think you mean airsofters:yay:

Yeah well airsofters, paintballers, COD/BF3 players, the average Arma player - same ability just different toys right;)...

Hey wait... I play airsoft and arma...

Yup, first doors and windows need stance/battle nodes from both inside and out. I've seen recent code that allows the AI to at least know it's inside of a structure (Das Attorney?) which is a huge improvement but we also need a primary master room node thats responsible for who is the room as well as whos directly outside of it to offer up smarter behaviors. For example if your squad of 4 is in the living room and an enemy is knownabout in the room directly North -take appropriate positions and action. If a room is clear of enemies the master room node would know this and send the team forward/backward/defensive or offensive window or door positions. Master room nodes could be counted so that a team of 12+ AI would only send a 3-4 man fireteam into a building with relative amount of rooms (nodes) while the rest take productive positions around the house.

The last thing is that all AI that are known to be indoors need to have a new set of behaviours under the Tab of Imminent Threat, in which they scan more frequently, move faster,adjust angles quicker and use appropriate stances. CQB would be majorly upgraded if these changes can make it in.

Yes, very good explanation of what would really help the ai function better indoors. The only thing I have to say is, if there were a CQB behaviour that made ai move faster adjust angles quicker etc, why would this be a bad thing to implement both inside and outdoors?

Edit: On top of this we also need a bullet counter similar to TPWCAS in that if an AI is attacking/defending from a window or door, huge volumes of fire from say a BMP should enact a Retreat behavior either to room cover/go upstairs or even exit via another door. That way we wont see AI acting stupid by looking cool at said opening all the while standing and getting murdered due to their inability to retreat or at least get a good posture/stance change.

Most of the stuff in this thread i would love to see but I know doesn't really stand a chance of being in arma 3. This is one of the few thing I really want BIS to do though and refuse to give up hope on until A3 is out. A more efficient/performance friendly/polished version of tpwcas suppress would be fantastic. Making ai choose stance and cover based on voluume of incoming fire as well as decreasing skill based on volume of incoming fire would greatly improve the dynamics of a firefight vs. the ai, increase length of firefights and survivability of the ai etc. Please BIS, I beg you look into this.

Some seriously good ideas in this thread, but what could and will be transferred - no idea and unlikely to say the least.

On release, I doubt much of anything in this thread will have been done. Depending on how well the game is recieved and the state of the community at that time, I think that there is a good chance that some things will be tested in betas and added in patches prior to release however.

To be honest SWAT 4 is horrid for AI and horrid for immersion. Only someone with a vague idea of CQB says that it's good. It's nearly as worse as RVS.

Yes indeed but I think it is still definitely better than what we got now. RVS too.

But like you said, it is not exactly possible with the huge envirnment, unlimited possibilities and large number of unique buildings.

Edited February 23, 2013 by -Coulum-

[Kuskov 1]

How would you make AI use it? ARMA is a big environment, it's not a few rooms and a door.

If you take into account all of the different SWAT 4 mod maps there is actually more variation in rooms then there is in all of the different Arma houses and buildings, and on top of that all the rooms in SWAT 4 are fully furnished.

To be honest SWAT 4 is horrid for AI and horrid for immersion. Only someone with a vague idea of CQB says that it's good. :o It's nearly as worse as RVS.

Really? can you please post some footage from another game showing better AI breaching and room clearing tactics, I'd be very interested to see it.

[rye1 21]

True they have a mixture of rooms and they are fully furnished. They are pros to a "CQB only" game. In ARMA you have your typical box, L-shape and even irregular rooms too though I would argue and agree with any argument that they're not "fully" furnished. But yet again they're based off Afghan/Iraq standard that may not be as furnished as we could express from our point of view.

Another game, no. But you can play SWAT 4 and watch all the AI fails.

The only thing that made it interesting for me was the SSF mod. It fixed a lot of retarded AI issues but it's still very much apparent.

Sorry but SWAT does not promote "room clearing tactics". It promotes running into a room and shooting things though the AI do handle it better than ARMA, they stack and they split.

Will we have breaching equipment in ARMA 3?

Probably not. I'd say it wasn't needed.

Will we have a shotgun that can breach or C4 on the doorknob like SWAT 4?

Again probably not.

Will the AI be able to use this?

Heck no! I couldn't see them using it efficiently, the same way as I cannot see them clearing buildings proficiently. They're AI!

Edited February 23, 2013 by Rye

[Kuskov 1]

Will we have breaching equipment in ARMA 3?

Probably not. I'd say it wasn't needed.

C'mon Rye, you know we need this -

GCPH5Gz_z7g

[rye1 21]

Door catapults, my dreams come true.

[froggyluv 2136]

The only thing I have to say is, if there were a CQB behaviour that made ai move faster adjust angles quicker etc, why would this be a bad thing to implement both inside and outdoors?

I'm not sure those "quick" type behaviours would be ideal in say a mid to long range gun battle across a field or in the woods but for CQB...most definitely. I was thinking DAC style zones areas attributed to the map to steer AI into these behavious as well as a full alternate order system to force your AI (under player command) to switch to CQB mode.

@kuskov: LMAO -it's needed if not only for the LOL's. How anyone can not love that series is beyond me :)

[rye1 21]

@kuskov: LMAO -it's needed if not only for the LOL's. How anyone can not love that series is beyond me :)

1. Crappy dispersion aiming where one step can mean the difference between hitting the side of a door and the side of a barn.

2. "Breach, bang and clear". WHAT?!

3. *AI shot five times in head - lives* It must be the fact he's wearing body armour... on his chest.

4. The hostages screams. "ARHAGHAHR" "ARHGAHHR".

5. The slow ass loading.

6. The server system, oh lord, kill me please.

7. The melee button... OK maybe not, that was so epic.

I can go on.

[froggyluv 2136]

1. Crappy dispersion aiming where one step can mean the difference between hitting the side of a door and the side of a barn.

2. "Breach, bang and clear". WHAT?!

3. *AI shot five times in head - lives* It must be the fact he's wearing body armour... on his chest.

4. The hostages screams. "ARHAGHAHR" "ARHGAHHR".

5. The slow ass loading.

6. The server system, oh lord, kill me please.

7. The melee button... OK maybe not, that was so epic.

I can go on.

Bah! Trivialities! And yet you still play it...;)

[rye1 21]

It's the only way I can be super pro SWAT.

Clearin' rooms, yo.

[froggyluv 2136]

..or you could join the POPO in real life Dread :j:

Not sure how Nesta would feel boutt that tho. Sure Swat has its flaws but its also a very dated game -had the mindless idiots who swallow every COD/BF's actually supported this genre -twould be straight up shotta fo life named Swat 6.

[Kuskov 1]

I'll agree SWAT 4 AI isn't by any means perfect, but it's a hell of an improvement over ARMA AI's CQC capabilities so I think it serves as a good yardstick to compare with.

[rye1 21]

had the mindless idiots

It still has. People still play it MP. Even worse - vanilla MP.

Tsst. Tsst. Mario Bros would be a good yardstick.

A tonne of games one-up ARMA in "CQB" sense.

I want CQB mod. Cry. Cry.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Rye

[fragmachine 12]

I think that breaching techinques won't be necessary as BIS mentioned somewhere that buildings will be open by default.

[Minoza 11]

I think that breaching techinques won't be necessary as BIS mentioned somewhere that buildings will be open by default.

Don't you dare to say that we don't need something in Arma! After all, it must have all the things for it shall be the ultimate simulator of everything! Plus you can breach already open doors with explosives too, don't you know that? Doh...

Arma 2 has pretty good approach to this issue IMO, instead of wasting explosives on breaching doors only, just flatten the whole building to the ground. It's easier, and it's more fun.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Minoza

[rye1 21]

Down with Doors... and Whole Buildings Society at your service.

No, no. It is fun in SWAT come on! You're one meter off the doorway. C4 set. Boom! You burst in.

[fragmachine 12]

Don't you dare to say that we don't need something in Arma! After all, it must have all the things for it shall be the ultimate simulator of everything! Plus you can breach already open doors with explosives too, don't you know that? Doh...

Arma 2 has pretty good approach to this issue IMO, instead of wasting explosives on breaching doors only, just flatten the whole building to the ground. It's easier, and it's more fun.

Ok, so for fun before you and your squad will get in the building, close the doors you wish to use C4 on, detonate it and watch whole building collapse but doors standing in front of you - in a blaze of glory ;)

[Kuskov 1]

Getting the AI to place breaching charges something similar to this would be great -

XnnTABb76yU

[rye1 21]

"But this works for the doors in the video because the buildings are community made and designed to be destroyed."

Heh.

[Kuskov 1]

"But this works for the doors in the video because the buildings are community made and designed to be destroyed."

Heh.

Why can't we use community made content in ARMA 3?

[fragmachine 12]

Why can't we use community made content in ARMA 3?

AFAIR ArmA 3 is being developed with a mind on it. So still theres possibility in it, at least coming out from community.

That video shows and proofs breaching is possible with the engine. Hope so the AI improvements.

[chrisb 196]

Getting the AI to place breaching charges something similar to this would be great -

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

I like that Kuskov, and you put it on video. Really good to see a short worth while test, thanks for putting it up.

I get told a lot that this or that doesn’t work, or the ai can’t do it. But that’s usually from players that simply haven’t explored the game to its fullest. MBG buildings, the one there in your video (I think), are really good buildings, as are Aplion and others, even some ported from arma work o.k. AI can use buildings quite effectively, many buildings in A2 itself also work really well, its testing to find what works and where.

O.k. we all know its not what we would really like to see, entry, movement through etc, but its as good as we will get from this series, for now and possibly on release of A3.

I hope to see some new ai abilities in A3, but I think we will be disappointed with what we get. I think it will be more cosmetic improvements, movement being the main one, but enhanced movement of what already exists, if using certain mod/addons, will be just smoother and better.

Some of the mod’s made already for ai, have set a high standard, tactics wise, GL4 in particular, but also SLX and Zeus which sort of followed on from SLX. There are a couple of other mod/addons, but they deal more with movement/collision etc. The mod’s mentioned did the best they could with buildings, GL4 mainly, maybe part of Zeus too, but they were done with an overall view, i.e. get the ai to at least use buildings.

Now, either by luck or intention, it stretched a little beyond just that, ai will not only use buildings but will tend to pick places within a building to look out, this happens all the time and is shown in numerous tests I have on video, in-fact 90% of the time they will find reasonable places within a building to position themselves, not perfect but pretty good.

Following on from that, they will stay within the building and engage the enemy from their position, provided the position is considered a good one, doing so whilst at the same time using good stances, again tests made on video. Obviously they move out or to another part of the building or another building totally, if they need to better their position.

Many players don’t see this, because they simply don’t build missions that include this type of behaviour, i.e. use the mod/addons required, design the mission, place units/groups correctly etc, or even choose the right mission setting. Now that’s not a fault of the game at the moment, that’s all possible now due to talented mod makers.

Should we get the ai to use the tactics we would really like to see in A3, unfortunately there will still be players, that just won’t see it.

Much is already out there and its really quite encouraging to see, but BIS don’t seem to think ai warrants that much attention, it does, it is by far the most important side of the game.

The problem is, the standard achieved by some of these mod/addon makers, may never be equalled by BIS. We need the type of talents that made the ones mentioned. Maybe that talent is there already in BIS, in the form of new people or ex mod makers, but I have a feeling too much of it is being put to the wrong use, i.e. underwater world.

Before they decided to get into the underwater world, it may have been better to concentrate on the ai first. Then perhaps, the entries into/moving through buildings, that we really do need, may have been achieved, instead of getting us all wet..

I’m sure its possible with more work concentrated on ai, its not that far off, surely..

[rye1 21]

Why can't we use community made content in ARMA 3?

It was implying doors weren't made to be destroyed in vanilla, I'm not implying the community can't make their own but it would be nice if doors were separate that way from the full structure. Direct explosive entry to a door leads to a partial structure collapse... half the building just goes BOOM!

[metalcraze 290]

there has been ZERO AI improvement in ArmA3 so far... And in fact it became worse in some way

AI still can't use crouch stance to engage, preferring to stand in the open like an idiot - and forget about AI using stance adjustments

AI still does not react to incoming/suppression fire, ignoring passing bullets completely

AI still has ridiculously slow reactions - at one point in the video you can see iranian soldier taking about 2 seconds to turn and face the player

AI also seems to ignore cover, running like a headless chicken through a village making it an extremely vulnerable target - whereas in ArmA2 it would've been a slow, cautious approach with stacking to walls thanks to an improvement in one of latest betas

Likewise I never seen them using smoke and I bet they have needed grenades in the inventory