AI Improvement

[maddogx 13]

Talking about "new features" with regards to the AI is difficult, because what constitutes an actual feature isn't always clear cut.

Take the throwing of smoke grenades, for example - I'm pretty sure the appropriate behaviour and conditions would simply need to be added to an FSM somewhere. Implement that properly and suddenly the AI are throwing smokes whenever they need to. So would this be a new feature? Not really; although it may seem like it, really it's just an adjustment to their existing behavioral logic.

Edited August 22, 2012 by MadDogX

[Serclaes 0]

When I said new features I mean AI using smoke grenades when injures and stuff like that. For vanilla AI thats new, for ASR AI its old. It isnt a new feature, just never added.

It's a little more complicated than that. For example: should they throw smoke when injured by mortars? Hit by a car? When they have cover and fire superiority?

Where should the smoke go? You see adding the "injured -> throw smoke" is not as simple as that.

[metalcraze 290]

Almost everyone besides you says the opposite, and almost everyone (including you, I suspect), turned down the AI precision config to more realistic values. (By the way, I once shared your opinion before I realized that ACE had somehow glitched out my profile settings.)

I don't know man. Set one AI against you in the editor and start fighting him. Count how many times you will shoot him first.

They can barely handle their recoil, let alone place one-shot kills. If AI is so good at one-shot kills why even snipers can't hit for shit?

Maybe "almost everyone" just puts 2:1 or more AIs against them and then complain? When you have 2 or more soldiers firing at you - chances of them hitting you increase proportionally.

FYI I have 0.9 AI skill (which means precision is the same) and sometimes lower it to 0.75-0.8 when mission has a great numerical enemy advantage (which is kinda imbalanced) - and yeah they tend to kill me sometimes. Oh what a tragedy.

Edited August 22, 2012 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

Just reposting here AI-related bits from Old Bear's trip to Gamescom:

On the question of "AI cheating with grass," Ivan told me that at the moment nothing had changed, they had tried several solutions without success, until now the solutions penalized too much the IA operations, and at the present time, rather than setting up a complex set of AI tweaks with multiple cursors in lieu of single "skill" cursor, BIS is moving towards a system limiting detection modes/perception by AI.

Regarding the 3D editor, there is no progress there because BIS does not have the means for it. All scripters being mobilized for the implementation of PhysX 3, for the animations, the AI and the GUI ... and especially for the integration of all these elements.

In fact, if I understood correctly, BIS made lots of tests that work more or less well. Ivan told me that for example in VBS, they found a way to include objects underground to tunnels, passages ... and it works in VBS, but in Arma3 environment , AI perceives the object hidden in the ground as a barrier and tends to avoid it... which is not the goal .... Furthermore, the IA refuse to engage in tunnels created. So for the moment, no underground objects in Arma3.

[maturin 12]

They can barely handle their recoil, let alone place one-shot kills.

Actually, the one-shot kills are what they excel at. If they knew how to handle recoil, they would be downright deadly. The aren't better than humans; their accuracy suffers from the central ArmA AI problem. They are awful half the time and superhuman the other half, very rarely mimicking human ability. The AI don't get more accurate with time; they don't have to walk rounds onto the target; they are always the same. So when a single bullet from 300m hits you while you are running between bushes, you cry 'unfair.' It's not a shot that a human couldn't have made, but for the AI, it was no more difficult than a shot under optimum conditions. So most players put AI accuracy below human levels to ensure that they don't use their mechanical advantages to score kills in the occasional unexpected and unrealistic situations.

Also, the superhuman spotting skills of the AI in combat (I'm not referring to cheating or looking through objects, just the instantaneous 180 FoV LoS check that they utilize in certain situations) makes them look like aimbots.

If AI is so good at one-shot kills why even snipers can't hit for shit?

Simple. Humans take great advantage of optics, but aren't very good with iron sights. The AI shoot pretty much the same with each, except for spotting and engagement distances. So they seem to proficient with their AKs.

The bottom line is that default AI accuracy is too good for realistic warfare, while human accuracy is usually WAY too good. The AI are never going to benefit from the absolutely massive advantages of basic sentience, so I think trying to balance abilities is a bit of a futile quest. Better to have longer firefights.

[-Coulum- 35]

The ai shooting ability is poorer than a humans. To "test"this simply set up enemies at 300m from an ai, disarm them and make them dostop. Time how long it takes for the ai to kill them all. Now make the ai the player and time yourself. I find that I consistently beat the ai by about 5-10 seconds, especially when using optics. The ai is usually on par with whean using an AK style sight though.

But when things get messy for the player during combat the ai is uneffected, causing us to think they are superhuman.

So all in all ai accuracy needs to be far less static. It should change depending on the situation and gear they have ie.

Should increase when using optics,

should increase as the level of intel(knowsabout) on the target increases

Should decrease while under fire

should decrease in accuracy but increase in speed at shorter distances

should decrease on the move (tactical pace)

+tonnes of other factors I can't think of right now

And I don't know exactly how arma ai handl shooting but I think it is a bit overly complex, and leads to some weird behaviour. Ie. in a big fight where my computer is struggling (10-20fps) the ai seem to fire less but always score one shot kills. Anybody else have this kind of experience?

I don't know much about ai programming but wouldn't the most effecient way to handle ai shooting be like done in ghost recon 1. Essentially the ai will always point directly at you when shooting (but adjusting for bulletdrop), but their dispersion is increased depending on their skill, and condition. I think that this would be a much stabler, consistent and system friendly way of handling ai shooting rather than currently where the ai tries to actually compensate for its own artifical sway, and only fires when it believes it has a good chance of hitting (which can take a while when theres tons of other stuff the computer is trying to calculate simultaneously). Thoughts?

[rye1 21]

I believe the AI one shot kills diminishes realism and the good chance of a firefight rather than a SHOT -> REVIVE -> FIRE scenario. It's just boring. I'd like the AI to actually engage you and get their hits, with a magazine or less, not one round. Then again this could be dependent on suppression or position so.

[maturin 12]

Heavily limited by range and movement, of course. Denying the AI one shot hits in close quarters or optimum shooting conditions is nonsense.

[rye1 21]

For instance when they are crouched. Doing their slow pull around to aim at you then just shoot once. And la-di-da. Why not pull the weapon towards you can spray? Would be better than the firefights where you hear "bang" see "blah was killed" and think, righteo.

[BasileyOne 10]

in nearly each patch, BIS tuned down, partially by newbies whine, but mainly by performance issues, caused by AI overhead to CPU stress :[

point is unless, core parts of AI logic become more scalable[in per/core-basis/dimension terms/meaning], there was not much fun in improving AI, most fun and enjoyed[by me]part of Arma2 :-(

i would love to enjoy power of 8x-12x-16x-32x-cores/streams CPU's, presently available cheaply, but instead would scratch my head to smoke [hysterically]looking how its struggle within one core, slowing to crawl even simplest missions on mid-populated server :-(]

nearly as bad as it is sound resources consumption, btw. at least in my[AMD chip]case.

[-Coulum- 35]

For instance when they are crouched. Doing their slow pull around to aim at you then just shoot once. And la-di-da. Why not pull the weapon towards you can spray? Would be better than the firefights where you hear "bang" see "blah was killed" and think, righteo.

Agreed, but at the same time, if an ai manages to flank around me I want him to drop me like I would him. I wouldn't want him spraying all around the place until I realize someone got around my back and turn around and one shot him. This is why I think the ai needs to balance speed/accuracy/rate of fire, and change that balance based on the situation (ie. range to the enemy, knowledge of the enemy, the danger they are in etc.) Probably would be too complex but the problem now is the ai always manages to be too accurate and slow when they should be inaccarate and fast or vice versa.

[metalcraze 290]

I believe the AI one shot kills diminishes realism and the good chance of a firefight rather than a SHOT -> REVIVE -> FIRE scenario. It's just boring. I'd like the AI to actually engage you and get their hits, with a magazine or less, not one round. Then again this could be dependent on suppression or position so.

One shot AI is a myth - unless of course you sit there in one place all the time.

For instance when they are crouched. Doing their slow pull around to aim at you then just shoot once. And la-di-da. Why not pull the weapon towards you can spray? Would be better than the firefights where you hear "bang" see "blah was killed" and think, righteo.

But it's entirely your fault! Why are you letting AI aim at you and shoot you by sitting in one place? AI is doing it completely right. I'm doing just that in firefights. Why spook an enemy with a spray when I can just one shot him? In PvP it's much MUCH worse - players always line up their shots otherwise the human enemy will get away or get alerted to their position too early. And human enemies shoot much much better than AI.

Man seriously stop complaining, learn to play. Grow some balls. This is not Call of Duty: Carebear Warfare with bots praying and spraying so the action will look "cool".

Edited August 27, 2012 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

Nah I didn't mean it like that Coulum, I just meant use more rounds. In a PVP you don't fire once when you are close, you fire multiple times and sometimes even confirm the dead is DEAD by shooting the body. Sometimes you miss quite a bit, recoil springs in and rounds hit above or around. To the AI this only happens when you're moving and they can't calculate the lead. I'd just prefer a more random encounter than same old. I'd like the AI to actually go for glory and fire off a magazine. :D

Metal craze, play something other than Recruit difficulty. Play more than just in editor and you will see that the AI one shot is infact quite the opposite to a myth. It happens, so shut up talking crap. And then you go on to state something is my fault, as in the way I play is the problem to this AI issue. Absolute stupidity, you either don't understand English or chose to ignore what you read. Proof by the obvious: "Why are you letting the AI aim at you and shoot you sitting in one place?" in which was referenced from... Metal craze's own head and thoughts, nothing to do with what I stated, I did not state me being in one place, I stated what the AI do when reacting upon you; especially if they are crouched or static.

They do the slow turn, slowly pulling their weapon around. Yes it does happen and I see it often especially when they apparently lose track of you or are fixated with another target. From 100 meters out I'm fine with them taking their time to line up shots, if they are in fireteam I expect them to fire as one and more rounds to come my way; just like a PVP. In some situations also the AI shoot better than humans, for example when they see you through the tiniest piece of bush and can engage but you can't see them for jack without thermals: That is terminator AI vision right there. You obviously think in black or white Metal craze, you know nothing of grey, you just want to argue the way you see it and not anyone else, you can't even reason. That said I'll ignore your reply and further replies for as long as I can.

[themaster303 22]

Nah I didn't mean it like that Coulum, I just meant use more rounds. In a PVP you don't fire once when you are close, you fire multiple times and sometimes even confirm the dead is DEAD by shooting the body. Sometimes you miss quite a bit, recoil springs in and rounds hit above or around. To the AI this only happens when you're moving and they can't calculate the lead. I'd just prefer a more random encounter than same old. I'd like the AI to actually go for glory and fire off a magazine. :D

Metal craze, play something other than Recruit difficulty. Play more than just in editor and you will see that the AI one shot is infact quite the opposite to a myth. It happens, so shut up talking crap. And then you go on to state something is my fault, as in the way I play is the problem to this AI issue. Absolute stupidity, you either don't understand English or chose to ignore what you read. Proof by the obvious: "Why are you letting the AI aim at you and shoot you sitting in one place?" in which was referenced from... Metal craze's own head and thoughts, nothing to do with what I stated, I did not state me being in one place, I stated what the AI do when reacting upon you; especially if they are crouched or static.

They do the slow turn, slowly pulling their weapon around. Yes it does happen and I see it often especially when they apparently lose track of you or are fixated with another target. From 100 meters out I'm fine with them taking their time to line up shots, if they are in fireteam I expect them to fire as one and more rounds to come my way; just like a PVP. In some situations also the AI shoot better than humans, for example when they see you through the tiniest piece of bush and can engage but you can't see them for jack without thermals: That is terminator AI vision right there. You obviously think in black or white Metal craze, you know nothing of grey, you just want to argue the way you see it and not anyone else, you can't even reason. That said I'll ignore your reply and further replies for as long as I can.

One shot AI is a myth - i can second that !!

do a video and upload it to youtube, where you get shot all the time by one-shot AI, so we can judge your claim of one-shoot AI.

otherwise i have to say, you are "talking crap" and you should shut up. (your words against matal craze!! not mine)

i expect soon a video from you...

greetz

masty

[rye1 21]

I didn't say all the time, I said sometimes and mainly when they are crouched or static. Don't stir words. When you are PVP fighting you may come across the same event but mainly you get hit and shot again, you get more than just one round as they want to confirm a kill. If they are close in PVP then you have more than one round fired and that's what makes it feel like a true fight, do you want a true fight? One that gets your heart pumping instead of one-shot-kill, OK let's search out the shooter. Instead of one burst from an MG then he changes position randomly. The sufficient evidence is that does happen and others have stated before on these forums. And if ARMA's AI want improving it's in the way they engage us and create that immersion of a firefight, through said possibilities stated by users here; that is productive, as opposite to this conversation of which is subjective.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Don't try to set all AI settings to 1 or UltraAI=1 that is imo just good to test AI on its highest + unrealistic skill level. Similar if you would set AI to the lowest setting.... ;)

[ProfTournesol 956]

in nearly each patch, BIS tuned down, partially by newbies whine, but mainly by performance issues, caused by AI overhead to CPU stress :

Source ? i didn't notice this at all. If you mean weapon accuracy, this isn't related to AI routines, but weapons config.

Edited August 27, 2012 by ProfTournesol

[-Coulum- 35]

One shot AI is a myth - i can second that !!

I can relate to Rye on this one. I have been "one shotted" several times although it is in no way a common occurrence. I find that it only seems to happen when there are lots of other things going on (ai, scripts etc.). Here's a vid that I recorded totally by chance.

I wasn't actually trying to reproduce this which is why it is so quick and sudden, but it proves that although rare, it is possible.

And human enemies shoot much much better than AI.

I am actually having second thoughts on that opinion. I used to believe that, but I had based that on ai shooting with ACE. I forgot that ACE changed ai skills. Testing in vanilla, I can say that the ai shooting of stationary targets is actually quite good, on par and possibly even better than a human in certain aspects. Even at 300-400 they can get a kill in only a matter of seconds. Of course I have to feed them artificial intelligence about the target, in order to get them to engage at those ranges, but I don't think that would effect their shooting ability. Here's my shooting, which I don't in any way consider above average...

Vs. the Ai shooting (at the default .66 skill level)

Decide for yourself which one is better but I would conclude that the ai is equal or perhaps even better than a human when it comes to shooting stationary targets. That being said, When it comes to moving infantry targets, they are absolutely horrible.

All in all though, it is my belief that human and ai shooting needs to be harder/less accurate, in order to maintain the challenge and realism of the game while playing against them.

In some situations also the AI shoot better than humans, for example when they see you through the tiniest piece of bush and can engage but you can't see them for jack without thermals: That is terminator AI vision right there.

Yep, these kind of things do happen, but I believe it is a problem with the bush more than with the actual ai. Basically the model of the bush you see, and the viewblock that prevents the ai from seeing are different. Leads to these types of incidents. Ai also seem to like to see + shoot through the edges of bushes because of it.

Whether it is the Ai or the bush, the fact still remains that it leads to unrealistic feats by the Ai. Hopefully all the bushes, trees, objects etc. in Arma 3 are done right the first time.

One thing I find, concerning Ai and bushes, is that when an ai sees an enemy run behind a bush, and decides to try and fire through the bush (No cheating since a human can do this as well), the precision of the ai's shooting is far to high. A human would just shoot randomly in the bush, but instead an ai shoots with pin-point accuracy at where he predicts you are. This is not cheating per say, but It also isn't very realistic, and leads to, as Rye so aptly put it, "terminator ai". Here's an example of what I mean.

It is hard to see because of the scope, but the enemy runs across the ai's view (between the two bushes). Seeing this the ai predicts the enemies movement behind the bush and with pinpoint accuracy, takes out the target. This is not exactly "humanlike". Furthermore, how exactly was the ai able to confirm the kill when the enemy was out of sight?...

Of course everything is effected by performance. I upped my graphical setting, and this situation turns out very differently.

The ai went from super human to brainless, simply due to a couple less FPS.

If you mean weapon accuracy, this isn't related to AI rountines, but weapons config.

Weapon accuracy is not related to Ai routines, but I have the feeling that the Ai's accuracy is actually very dependant on the CPU. I get the impression that the Ai actually has to think in order to aim/shoot. Take a look at this vid of a wounded, low skill ai aiming.

Notice how the Ai seems to actually be trying to compensate for his sway, by timing his shots and only shooting when the crosshairs near the target. This means that even low level ai are still quite accurate, but just have a reduced rate of fire - because even with all the swaying, the ai only shoots when they have a good chance of hitting.

This leads me to believe that ai shooting is not a simple matter of the Ai pointing at an enemy and having random dispersion/sway, determine whether the bullet hits its mark, but rather that the ai is actively calculating its aim, and deciding when the best time to shoot. I don't know, but it seems like Ai shooting is actually an Ai routine, which would mean that the capability and load on the CPU would have an effect on their accuracy and rate of fire.

Last thing I would like to point out about the ai shooting/spotting, which is very frequent, unlike the above rarely occurring issues, is the Ai's ability to pinpoint a shooter the moment he takes a shot in the Ai's FOV despite camoflauge, partial-concealment, scene complexity etc. The time it takes to spot the enemy should be based on these factors and it shouldn't be pinpoint precise.

Anyhow, lots of food for thought on the Ai.

Edited August 27, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Madeon 6]

I've noticed a lot of guard towers in the Arma3 screenshots and videos, I hope the AI will be able to fight properly from inside of them.

[maturin 12]

The only way to fight properly from a guard tower is to die, unless you have total fire superiority and support.

I hope BI adds pop-up routines for cover usage, and that would get the job done.

[Opticalsnare 12]

The biggest most annoying thing to me with the AI is the rate of fire issues. For example tanks with M240 or M2 seem to fire at a much slower rate of fire than instructed to do so via config regardless, yet a stryker with a M2 is unaffected its like same weapon, same ammo, differnt vehicle, but differnt fire rate wtf..

Its like yea the tanks have arrived to back us up with thier single shot shit machine guns.... pop pop pop pop pop :confused:

[.Taffy 10]

The only way to fight properly from a guard tower is to die, unless you have total fire superiority and support.

I hope BI adds pop-up routines for cover usage, and that would get the job done.

I really hope the AI is at least able to use Smookies new animations if told to do so. Then it would be interesting to see what Robalo and tpw make of them when they port their mods over.

[Madeon 6]

I hope BI adds pop-up routines for cover usage

Pop-up routines would be totally awesome, they would be perfect for when the AI is standing behind guard tower walls, or walls in villages, or behind windows.

[froggyluv 2130]

Pop-up routines would be totally awesome, they would be perfect for when the AI is standing behind guard tower walls, or walls in villages, or behind windows.

As long its not all the time becoming predictive whack-a-mole....I'm all for it.

Funny, on that Patrol mission of ACR - we had a guy suppressed behind one of those broken walls and my whole squads was in a semi circle facing him -when he started popping up from the walls then dropping back down spraying fire. He wasn't hitting anyone but I couldnt believe it so I just watched him from his periphery -next thing you know, he had gone prone, taken a corner and shot me in the face -was awesome :)

Of course I'm sure it had something to do with the ASR/TWC Suppress/LOS combo :rolleyes:

[Madeon 6]

As long its not all the time becoming predictive whack-a-mole....I'm all for it.

Funny, on that Patrol mission of ACR - we had a guy suppressed behind one of those broken walls and my whole squads was in a semi circle facing him -when he started popping up from the walls then dropping back down spraying fire. He wasn't hitting anyone but I couldnt believe it so I just watched him from his periphery -next thing you know, he had gone prone, taken a corner and shot me in the face -was awesome :)

Of course I'm sure it had something to do with the ASR/TWC Suppress/LOS combo :rolleyes:

Did you happen to record it froggy, I'd love to watch it because it's exactly the way I'd like the AI to behave in my missions.