Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[antoineflemming 14]

Which is where you miss the point. There is no distinction in Arma.

1) Mocap animations can be edited later anyway, you don't know

2) Mocap actors wear spandex and carry plastic rifles. They do not perform moves with combat load.

3) Mocap animations can be sped up or slowed down.

Stop assuming people who disagree with you are ignorant.

The difference between arma and other games is visual smoothing in 3pp and there is no fake 1pp. In Arma you are seeing the raw output.

Lack of animation interrupt used to be a pain, it was partially fixed in A2, but not quite there yet.

Edit: I asked you for game examples, since you keep bringing up "other games". You can name specific animation systems that are better in specific ways but none of them could allow for the 1st person/3rd person synergy we currently have without delaying the movements in 1pp and giving you motion sickness.

The proposed superior "other game" simply does not exist.

That does not mean Arma2 cannot be improved but it does mean you are comparing apples to oranges every time you bring up those FPS games.

I understand that ArmA is all the same. 1st person is third person. There's no distinction. What you fail to understand is that whenever anyone mentions some other game's animations, they are talking about that game's "third person" animations. THAT is comparing apples to apples. Let me ask you. Does BIS have mocap actors animating in full combat load? I am talking about the animations themselves, not the movement system. I am not assuming anyone is ignorant by the way. My main problem with ArmA2's animations and animation system is that they aren't fluid, like real human movement. Human movement isn't like sliding around, but it's pretty fluid. Many others can attest to the clunkiness of arma's animation system. That's my main issue. And others can also tell you that the animations in ArmA2 are not the way real soldiers move with combat loads. But, you know what, it doesn't matter anyway, because BIS has said they changed the animations and animation system, so I am satisfied. Too bad if you have a problem with their decision to change the animation system. I am satisfied just looking at the difference between ArmA2's freefall animation and that of ArmA3.

[hoak 0]

Does anyone found any video shows weapon canting is reconciled in ArmA 3 for lean/peak stances?

:confused:

[dmarkwick 261]

Does anyone found any video shows weapon canting is reconciled in ArmA 3 for lean/peak stances?

:confused:

Do you mean whether the sight is leaned to match the weapon? Not in as far as I have seen.

[spotter001 82]

it would be useful to have something like the cover system from the Ghost Recon Future Soldier. of course, from the 1st person's view.

[PuFu 4598]

Do you mean whether the sight is leaned to match the weapon? Not in as far as I have seen.

lean in most games, arma included is a one axis rotation, instead of being a rotatio + sideways translation. no matter, weapon should be kept in a steaight position and should't rotate with the arms/body, at least NOT to the same degree.

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:54 ----------

it would be useful to have something like the cover system from the Ghost Recon Future Soldier. of course, from the 1st person's view.

...except NOT

[chortles 263]

...except NOT

I won't dismiss spotter's suggestion so pithily, but I will rather use these:

#1: SMK Animations mod in ARMA 2 and RO2 already achieved "1st person sticky cover".

#2: Despite my having played GRFS, I'm not aware of anything that GRFS did to differentiate itself from other third-person shooters with a sticky cover mechanic in terms of this.

[kilroy the nerd 14]

Red Orchestra 2's cover system is gunderful. You can blind fire (actually blindly, without 3rd person), peak out.

Come to think of it, the SMK modification for ArmA 2 has most of this, only it doesn't seem to automatically adjust to your cover where RO2 does.

[chortles 263]

In fairness, SMK Animations was an attempt to implement a sticky cover mechanic where one did not previously exist nor was the engine designed to support sticking to cover like so.

[hoak 0]

Do you mean whether the sight is leaned to match the weapon? Not in as far as I have seen.

Not exactly; as I point out in the OT and first several posts in this thread, and PuFu adds:

lean in most games, arma included is a one axis rotation, instead of being a rotatio + sideways translation. no matter, weapon should be kept in a steaight position and should't rotate with the arms/body, at least NOT to the same degree.

Proper weapon handling (and habit) will keep most trained Operators from laterally tipping or canting their weapon when aiming -- but that's only half the story... If we were to literally 'lean' and tip at the waist to a radical 45° angle as depicted in so many games (and as discussed in the OT that's not particularly realistic), the world does not tip or skew to a 45° angle because this is not how we see; your brain requires proprioception cues like the G's you pull in a plane or on a motorcycle banked at this angle for this to happen.

Summarily: the world does not tip (ever), and guns are not canted in any but the most radical fire positions...

:eek:

Edited August 31, 2012 by Hoak

[dmarkwick 261]

Not exactly; as I point out in the OT and first several posts in this thread, and PuFu adds:

Proper weapon handling (and habit) will keep most trained Operators from laterally tipping or canting their weapon when aiming -- but that's only half the story... If we were to literally 'lean' and tip at the waist to a radical 45° angle as depicted in so many games (and as discussed in the OT that's not particularly realistic), the world does not tip or skew to a 45° angle because this is not how we see; your brain requires proprioception cues like the G's you pull in a plane or on a motorcycle banked at this angle for this to happen.

Summarily: the world does not tip (ever), and guns are not canted in any but the most radical fire positions...

:eek:

Ah I see :)

Yes the world does not tip - unless you are rolling or are in an aircraft. It reveals a game engine limitation - that particles do not rotate in the world. I'm sure that's not the reason tilting world view is not implemented, I'm just suggesting there's possibly game engine optimisations that might depend on the world view not tilting.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Something that slightly bothers me from Arma3's work at smoothing out the animations is that in the process the look of the player pounding the pavement is gone.What I mean is the way when running that it looks like your really seeing the weight of the character with each step as the camera bounces on ground.I am not speaking of sway which I use very little of.In A3 it seems to glide and loses this great effect.Its still there though toned down a large amount.

To be honest I really like Arma2's animations when outside.Its just when you enter indoor areas that it becomes super clunky.How is this in Arma3?I see no videos to show whats up.......:j:

EDIT<<<this is why I was gonna post originally.Can anything be done about the shooting from rooftops feeling impossible.When in Zargsbad and on a roof I find that I must get so close to the edge to fire my weapon that I lose all advantage and instead fire from prone on even ground with enemy preferentially.The fact that you have to go so close to edge to get muzzle to point down leaves you a sitting duck for return fire.Now in perfect world I could see the actual 3D model of weapon and the ability to tilt it up or down to allow roof shots but that seems like a very hard task to model when the weapon is connected to the body as in the Arma series.Maybe when prone the angle that the muzzle can shoot effectively gets lowered slightly?

Edited August 31, 2012 by Wolfstriked

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

In fairness, SMK Animations was an attempt to implement a sticky cover mechanic where one did not previously exist nor was the engine designed to support sticking to cover like so.

In fact, if the current SMK animations in ArmA III succeed, "sticky cover" or "back-to-wall" could be later added in an expansion, or a patch. Everyone, observe the following footage,

OTDDwKQncEY

Notice 11:05 - quality is top-notch, flawless in operation and utility, only way Pliskin could get a bigger boner right now is by having dedicated weapon/equipment bindings on the number row keys, which are currently being occupied by AI command interface. *GRR*

P.S. I laugh at all the dreamers of superficial features and impractical adaptations. What we have here is enough for CQB, provided we get proper dedicated weapon keys for easy transition/swapping.

I think the long wish lists are a case of "IT'S A SIMULATOR, MAEK OL THE THINGZ DEVZ". :D

Edited August 31, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Madeon 6]

I noticed Rocketbox Libraries have 3d models and animations available for usage in simulations, games,etc. One of the animations is a soldier taking cover against a wall. I don't know whether or not it would be useful for arma 3.

yqxq8FBaR-k&feature=plcp

[smookie 11]

Not needed. Problem with animations above is that they are not ArmA friendly in terms of WYSITPIWYGIFPV (What you see in third person is what you get in first person view). Taking cover will probably not be part of vanilla but I have data and materials to make it should there be interest after the release.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Yeah, Smookie has it sorted in concept, only thing we can argue now is detail and the (subjective) speed of certain animations. Smookie, what about further CQB goodness in terms dedicated weapon/equipment mappings on the number row? I bet you and a 2D artist could rework the entire weapons selection mechanic in two days, simply because you're so awesome and you have the right concepts in your head. :icon_twisted:

[Madeon 6]

Taking cover will probably not be part of vanilla but I have data and materials to make it should there be interest after the release.

Yes I'm interested!

BTW I was looking at all the different animations on the Rocketbox Libraries website and none of them look anywhere near as good as the Arma3 animations, except for one. The one that I did like is called P01 run fast 01 out and can be found by scrolling through the animations list near the bottom of the page -

http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/index.php/cchd-combat-180-m.html

What I like about that particular animation is that the man doesn't come to a sudden halt when he stops running, he sort of slows down then stops, and it looks really nice. Is it possible to do something like this for Arma3?

[smookie 11]

like this? Then answer is no - at the moment there is too much problem with collision detection and lack of control (= clunkiness) that its a no-go.

@weapon selection - well, yes, we would probably be able to but its not our department and hence i cannot do anything about the way things will develop (there other factors that need to be considered)

Edited September 1, 2012 by Smookie

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

@weapon selection - well, yes, we would probably be able to but its not our department and hence i cannot do anything about the way things will develop (there other factors that need to be considered)

YEEEEEEEEESSSS! Please refer the appropriate staff to the Controls & Interface thread if you are in contact with them. :icon_mrgreen:

This "custom" dynamic stance system is a needed complexity for competitive CQB gameplay, but imagine if you mistap the F key weapons cycle and you don't get to fire that M203 nade shot from that awesome position of concealment, until you cycle F again "-> Grenades -> Smoke grenades -> Satchels -> Semi/single -> Burst/full -> M203/GP-25". The obsolete scroll list and F-cycle controls become a redundant complexity and CQB/Cover dynamics won't change that much.

Your anims and dedicated weapons key maps go hand-in-hand for PvP.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[wiggie 24]

From the Eighteen minute Infantry Gameplay Video that has been linked in a previous post, I must say that I am really, really impressed by the new animations in ArmA III. Movement, stance transitions, leaning, everything is fast, fluent and appears easy to use, which is really what the game needs. The sticky cover thing isn't really needed either I don't think. As has already been mentioned, the problem with sticky or context sensative cover, is that you lose control of your character to a degree. Christ, we've all been there in Gears of War when you lock down behind a barricade, and then get flanked, find yourself super glued to the wall and end up getting blown into sausage meat because you can't get out of the enemies sights. Here is why it isn't really needed, and in the simplest of terms.

Whenever me and my team are playing ArmA II, and we cross open ground to a hard point, we peel off when we hit the wall in either direction, covering left, right, behind us, exactly as you see real soldiers doing, keeping 360 security. When you are looking along the wall, towards your nearest corner, you are positioned exactly as you would be in real life, as if you had your shoulder braced against it. Now, when I move towards a corner that I intent to shoot around, I don't point my gun at the wall and pop out. Instead, I move up to the corner, my weapon parallel to the piece of cover I'm using. As I come to the corner itself, I turn in an L like pattern around the wall, hugging it as tightly as possible, this, serves two main purposes;

Firstly, it ensures I stay tight to the wall, as we all know that pointing your gun at a wall in ArmA II without STMovement, can cause you to be pushed back to that the barrel is not clipping the building. It also ensures at the same time, that my muzzle clears the cover, so that I don't waste rounds shooting the cover I'm in, and thus, supressing myself.

Secondly, it means that as I come out from cover, no matter how quickly or slowly I do this, I get to scan the area in front of me, being able to see targets to my side that might engage me at an angle. Thus, I can deal with them first, keeping myself shielded from any others. If I faced the wall and strafed out, sure, I might see the guy down the road, but I might not see his buddy across the street on the right of my screen.

Anyhow, this looks similar and feels much like popping out of cover in a game such as Gears of War. Sure, its clunky as hell, even with Smookie's outstanding movement mod (which I do use), but ArmA III appears to have a much smoother feel to it, which should improve the feature further.

To me, I don't need sticky cover. I need options to get in and out of cover, such as vaulting over walls at speed, sliding into low cover to break the Line of Sight and climbing over tall fences. I also need ways to get from cover-to-cover more effectively. I've already seen the normal and what appears to be a higher, fast crawl. So long as there is a low crawl in there, that keeps the character as flat as possible, I'm a happy man.

I'm sorry if I've annoyed anyone with this post. Its not my intent to try to "School" or belittle anybody. I've not got any military expirience, I'm just a Tactical Gamer, PCB Technician and Aspiring Games Designer. But to me, modern (and future) warfare is too fast and dynamic nowadays to really encompass locking into a piece of cover. Taking cover is always -the- number one priority in combat, but lest we forget, ArmA's AI is so dynamic that battles shift at any moment, and its nice to be able to adjust your position without anything slowing you down.

Great work so far Smookie, honestly, I cannot wait to build myself an obstacle course in the Editor and start moving around.

Thanks for reading everybody.

[Tonci87 163]

Why not just put the command system on the numpad and free the number keys for weapon selection and other stuff?

[Madeon 6]

like this? Then answer is no - at the moment there is too much problem with collision detection and lack of control (= clunkiness) that its a no-go.

That's unfortunate because the animation in the video you posted looks amazing, but oh well it's not something we absolutely need, arma 3's still going to be the best game ever.

[maturin 12]

Why not just put the command system on the numpad and free the number keys for weapon selection and other stuff?

Because then I can't move while issuing commands and might as well have a console radial menu.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Why not just put the command system on the numpad and free the number keys for weapon selection and other stuff?

Apologies for off-topic:

If you're interested in this genuinely, please read the whole Controls & Interface thread (Started 25th of Aug, 16 pages total). We have considered it and numpad isn't practical and would be a downgrade from the current responsiveness of the 3-5, 7-2 scheme. Automatic number row key function toggle is another solution: when you select a unit with F1-F12, weapon selection is disabled on the number row and you get your current AI command mechanics.

But perhaps BIS have something better in the works to resolve the AI command-weapons selection interface problem. WASD and number row keys are a prime real estate area of the keyboard. :icon_mrgreen:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?139228-Controls-Scheme-amp-User-Interface-Feedback

Edited September 2, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Tonci87 163]

Apologies for off-topic:

If you're interested in this genuinely, please read the whole Controls & Interface thread (Started 25th of Aug, 16 pages total). We have considered it and numpad isn't practical and would be a downgrade from the current responsiveness of the 3-5, 7-2 scheme. Automatic number row key function toggle is another solution: when you select a unit with F1-F12, weapon selection is disabled on the number row and you get your current AI command mechanics.

But perhaps BIS have something better in the works to resolve the AI command-weapons selection interface problem. WASD and number row keys are a prime real estate area of the keyboard. :icon_mrgreen:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?139228-Controls-Scheme-amp-User-Interface-Feedback

Now THAT is a good idea!

[Minoza 11]

Now THAT is a good idea!

+1 I like this idea, was just gonna recommend it but then I saw Iroquois already did.