General Flight Model

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I still manage to fly reasonably well on *modified expert with keyboard mouse :cool:

I assume bleeding off speed before landing is an example of the FM that will be changed upon release. :icon_hug:

Edited October 6, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

Yes, trimming is right behavior. Trimm is a tool for corrections and wind effect. FM is here very well done, some to improve like fast strange descend when the speed is above maximum, the rest is very ok or for small corrections. I fly on the expert level and Im very happy with this fm but good quality joystick like hotas of saitek, logitech or thrustmaster is nesessery with Tkoh plus pedals, not 3d stick!

Ähm, I´m not mean trimming, I meant if the rolling/bank to the right is the correct behavior. I can`t imagine that you have that in IRL Bell? helicopter. Sure, as they don`t have the RL counterparts in-game, they can make them how they want it to...

Edited October 6, 2011 by EagleEye[GER]

[zoog 18]

;2033508']Strange indeed. I´m on Expert and light helicopter and need left pedal when raising collective' date=' otherwise it would turn clockwise(as it is the correct behavior).

Don`t know for medium helicopter, as my problem is it that it is heavy rolling to the right when giving collective and I have to give much left cyclic. Yes, trimming helps a bit, though is that the right behavior?[/quote']

Sometimes it seems to reset the difficulty setting. If I restart a mission it's sometimes on trainee level again. Maybe that's what causing these differences. When I set it back to expert again there is of course more pedal input needed.

[royaltyinexile 175]

Sometimes it seems to reset the difficulty setting. If I restart a mission it's sometimes on trainee level again.

It's called noob-detection: we automatically scale it back down. :p

No that's actually not true. :) Are you getting this every time you restart a mission?

Best,

RiE

[buznee 0]

Agreed.

First of all I wanted to congratulate Bohemia Interactive in releasing what can be potentially the best immersed helicopter simulator out. I understand this is a beta and still needs tons of work but I would like to provide some feedback that will help make this sim top notch.

The flight model in general is workable but it definately has a long way to go.

A good place to compare how a helicopter should fly is to fly the dodosim Bell 206 for Flight Simulator X. Very well put together. Tons of work trying to match the same performance charts of the aircraft and getting feedback from many 206 pilots with regards to handling qualities.

What bothers me is that the aircraft in TOH are actually more unstable and difficult to fly then the dodosim bell 206, x-plane, fsx and dcs blackshark aircraft.

Pedal control feels about right. Has good damping and good controllability.

The problem lies in the cyclic and collective. There is not sufficient roll and pitch damping and too much inertia in the longitudinal and lateral directions.

The lateral and longitudinal inertias for the aircraft seem too high. When you put in a control input in a helicopter you should see it immediately in the aircraft response. It seems there is quite a sluggish feel between input and output feedback. Which means that when you fly you have to push the control, hold it, to overcome inertia, wait for aircraft response and anticipate wayyyyy ahead of time the aircraft behavior so that you can put in a correction to stop the roll/pitch rates. This should not be so. Stick to head should feel direct. This makes the aircraft very frustrating to fly with precision. The pilot should be working on putting the aircraft over a point on the ground much more than trying to hold a pitch/roll attitude. If the pilot has a hard enough time holding attitude it is quite frustrating even attempting to hold a point over the ground.

In level flight above 60 kts the aircraft should begin tracking easily in both pitch and roll since the tail surfaces are now weathervaning in the wind. This should make it quite easy to hold an airspeed and altitude. Does not seem to be that way with this current flight model.

Most light twin and medium twin helicopters come with SAS (stability augmentation system) as standard equipment. I highly recommend including this feature in the light twin and medium twin helos in TOH. Usually these size helicopters are considerably easier to fly than the lighter smaller helis. You should be able to hit the trim release and release the controls and the aircraft should hold a perfect track while in level flight. In hover you should be able to hold a pitch/roll attitude by trimming and just work the cyclic to stay over a position on the ground.

Is aircraft steady state power required modeled? It should take quite a bit of power to hover as compared to flying at best rate of climb speed (Vy) it should then require a great deal of power/torque to get anywhere near Vne. Ofcourse this will depend on aircraft gross weight. Is variable weight based on fuel burn modeled?

Collective rigging and torque indications do not seem accurate.

It should take more than 50% collective to get light on wheels in hover. Most helicopters will require pilot at ~75% collective to be in stabilized hover out of ground effect, ofcourse depending on weight this value will vary.

Torque should be instantly changing with collective input. No delay. This is not a power available (engine) variable, the torque is simply measuring the drag on the rotor system. so increasing blade angle is instant, therefore torque measurement is instant. Power available should come in with regards to how quickly the rotor speed catches up to a quick collective change. If the engine response is fast than the rotorspeed should catch up quick. If engine response is slow or you are at the torque limiter or engine limiter, the rotor speed should droop.

Drag coefficient needs to be increased as well. It seems way too easy to get up to speed and overspeed the aircraft in level flight without even getting close to the torque limit.

Not sure if this is related to the flight model or not but why does the aircraft cockpit view randomly buffet / shake in flight. Does not seem realistic. If this is supposed to be simulating turbulence or helicopter vibrations its not very convincing. I would remove this for now until you can make this look more believable. It is quite aggrevating.

All in all though. Thanks so much for putting something like this out there! I am very excited to be able to fly at tree top level and have wonderful scenery to look at as well as being able to walk out of the aircraft.

On another note, the current options menu for controls etc seem to have lots of leftovers from ARMA. I would try to seperate this game as much as possible from that. There are too many control assignments, half of which are not very useful. I would recommend consolidating all of the view controls between vehicles and infantry etc into one easy to understand set of assignments. Try to tweak the model with the default control settings for a standard usb joystick and have those settings as your default. It is a bit frustrating to have to mess with sensitivities, dead zones, etc to make the aircraft flyable.

If you guys get the flight model right and work out the bugs with regards to the mission/scripting/triggers, I think you will have a great product that will appeal to a wide range of audience.

Thanks for listening.

[zoog 18]

It's called noob-detection: we automatically scale it back down. :p

No that's actually not true. :) Are you getting this every time you restart a mission?

Best,

RiE

:D

I can't seem to replicate it anymore. It stays on expert when restarting or resuming a mission. I'm sure it was on trainee a few times while I always play on expert. I'll keep an eye on it to see if it happens again and let you know if it does.

[hollywoody 10]

when Flying the Hughs 500 i get the same issues..taking to long to desend with collective all the way down. Also the collective is so sensitive that if I give it just a tad of collective the ship just jumps off the ground. is there anyway to adjust this (other than what is in controller options) to smooth this out? I have already taken out sensitivity within controller options and this did nothing. thanks

[kludger 10]

when Flying the Hughs 500 i get the same issues..taking to long to desend with collective all the way down. Also the collective is so sensitive that if I give it just a tad of collective the ship just jumps off the ground. is there anyway to adjust this (other than what is in controller options) to smooth this out? I have already taken out sensitivity within controller options and this did nothing. thanks

Yeah I am also experiencing the same problem, overall the controls feel good, but seeing the same collective issues reported, light helicopter not descending with 0 collective, and on trying to set it down smoothly I am getting the same bunny hop behavior hard to find a smooth settled attitude at < 5 feet off the ground, maybe it is the ground effect simulation or something.

I've tried reducing sensitivity curve and 0 deadzone on my Saitek X52 and the numbers look good in the controls window but still hard to land without bunny hop or dropping it down too fast.

[Chris CDN 10]

Yeah I am also experiencing the same problem, overall the controls feel good, but seeing the same collective issues reported, light helicopter not descending with 0 collective, and on trying to set it down smoothly I am getting the same bunny hop behavior hard to find a smooth settled attitude at < 5 feet off the ground, maybe it is the ground effect simulation or something.

I've tried reducing sensitivity curve and 0 deadzone on my Saitek X52 and the numbers look good in the controls window but still hard to land without bunny hop or dropping it down too fast.

I don't think adjusting the sensitivity on your collective will actually do anything. A power setting should just be a power setting, if that makes any sense. The cyclic on the other hand, should have the sensitivity turned all the way to the top if you want (close to) realistic inputs.

IMO the "bunny hop" you experience is still from the exaggerated ground effect and shouldn't be an issue with your control set up.

[whiskeytango 11]

Just my 2c (I'm not a real pilot)

That ground effect is driving me insane. I like flying and really enjoy the flight model in general except the way the helicopter some how goes up when 1 ft off the ground. I practiced landing on a helipad in Expert mode and right now I have to aim for a few feet infront of it so when I bounce up I land on the pad. To fight it I often smash into the ground a little hard. I realise this has probably been discussed to death already. T

Track IR should be free to look around and zoom in on the controls. I feel like it's too constrained right now. I have trouble looking out my door window properly. Am I too tall?

It seems that gravity is too weak sometimes. This problem was in Arma as well.

I'm also looking forward to seeing the detail level of Seattle non lite. Right now the textures are low res and objects mission - flying around ARMA 2 has a huge level of ground detail but I guess there's no code heavy flight model to deal with.

[_YoYo_ 10]

Just my 2c (I'm not a real pilot)

Track IR should be free to look around and zoom in on the controls. I feel like it's too constrained right now. I have trouble looking out my door window properly. Am I too tall?

All pilots are to tall in MD500.

Edited October 6, 2011 by _YoYo_

[whiskeytango 11]

Ah cool. Thanks for the photo.

[liquidpinky 11]

I do find myself more comfortable sitting on the right hand side of the cockpit though, side I drive on also.

The ability to take control of whatever side you are sitting on is a godsend.

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

Anyone have a thought on this one?:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2033508&postcount=20

Is that behavior normal for the medium helicopter? (I don`t mean the trimming itself)

Edited October 7, 2011 by EagleEye[GER]

[Chris CDN 10]

;2034131']Anyone have a thought on this one?:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2033508&postcount=20

Is that behavior normal for the medium helicopter? (I don`t mean the trimming itself)

That is not the correct behaviour. Collective changes in any helicopter will not cause roll. (Technically it will cause a little bit, but you'd never really notice it.)

[ocramweb 0]

@Chris I think he is talking about Yaw

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2033508&postcount=20

now talking about anti torque pedal in game I find them far too light, I mean that the anti torque rotor is not as effective as it should be

and on the second hand, the torque induced yaw effect is too light as well i.m.o.

Edited October 7, 2011 by ocramweb

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

@Chris I think he is talking about Yaw

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2033508&postcount=20

No no, I meant that roll to the right for the medium heli. Chris answer is what I looked for.:)

[Chris CDN 10]

Don't worry too much about the anti-torque issues. The pedals do need more authority, but the fact that you don't have to overcompensate for torque is a good thing. There are lots of helicopters out there that have a built in assist (mechanically) to help reduce pilot workload.

[RodrigoMF_BR 10]

I liked in general of FM, at expert mode.

I like to have more pedals necessity and a longer collective course.

For a Beta are much promessing...

The tendency for left bank isn´t gyroscopic precession ?

[RaptorGasserUAV 10]

Hi Guys,

As a preface to my comments on TKOH, I think it would be valuable to outline my experience and lessons learned from a great deal of experience with Helicopter Simulation. I have from the start, flying FS9 heli's taken a non teleological approach towards understanding the factors that both enhance and limit the experience of simulated helicopter flight.

I have thousands of hours flying heli's on the sim, (and also 32 hours fullsize: 21 in the Schweitzer 300 and 11 in a R22), from the early days of FS9 with dodosim - to X-Plane 9 and of course DCS Black Shark.

Considering that the pleasure of Helicopter flight is the ability to manipulate a machine in all axis' with skill and precision I have taken a very strict approach to find the most authentic experience. At first I was extremely stubborn and pedantic about absolute accuracy in the physics and flight model department believeing that was the absolute key to heli simulation (and that in itself was elusive and unsatisfying in the early days until X-Plane V8 and onwards started bringing accurate heli flight models to the table. MSF9 for example did not have Torque Reaction implimented and it took some skilled developers to bring Dodosim and then a couple of (free) helis over at Hovercontrol.com)

But even with a highly accurate flight model I found it required a lot more concentration and energy to acheive less consistent and accurate maneuvering of the type that came easily when flying the real thing, such as a stable hover with smooth, balanced hover taxiing to flying by the numbers; and this is the single biggest limitation faced by sims: The relative lack of situational awareness resulting from zero depth perception, the loss of periferal vision and the kinematic "seat of the pants" attitude awareness resulting from receiving all of your spatial positional information through a static 2D screen - and further more complicating the process by having to also manually manipulate your viewing angle in order to collect the spatial information you would otherwise have "in reality" and which to overcome is a huge challenge, and *almost* worth sacrificing realism with "shortcuts" such as sacrilegious "auto hover" capabilities to make up for the uneven playing field heli simmers are on...

Now of course Head Tracking tools, such as Free Track and Trackir help improve your awareness significantly and are very much worth the time and energy to make one up! I only made one up when I got DCS Black Shark and besides the shark being a heavy bird I have great satisfaction flying to the numbers and in trim, with excellent situational awareness from having a head tracker - and I must also concede that although the physics and flight models for the reputable X-Plane helis are far more advanced than Microsofts rotary winged attempts, there are still inaccuracies such as the over aggressive loss of ETL when decelerating through the threshhold etc. (and I own all the payware ones, such as the Bell206, BK117, AW139, H500D etc)

Now to the actual point, from playing the Beta (using the logitech G940 system, and so far I have not succeeded with getting Freetrack running yet) My opinion is that the flight models are progressing in the right direction and am confident that come release they will be polished. My main issue has been to do with bad visability when performing confined area maneuvers and slinging - (of course without the use of freetrack at this point) I would liketo make a suggestion that the Anti Torque Pedal lower windows in the 412 be enlarged significantly so as to be able to have reference points below eye level, as the dash is pretty high and hard to look over to pick good reference points.

SO with all that said and done, I must take my hat off to Bohemia Interactive for the way in which they developed TKOH, their openness to the community, and I am personally very excited about the future for this platform! And also I am excited to finally see we are getting the high fidelity ground detail that is essential to help Heli Simmers keep their bearings!

[_YoYo_ 10]

@RaptorGasserUAV

Nice opinion, thanks for kind words for BIS too.

[OMAC 254]

Autotrim is enabled by default for Trainee, and disabled for Expert. This is great. However, starting in preview build 84444, there was a huge change in how mouse movement controls the heli on Expert. Since then (including the beta), mouse movement on Expert has greatly reduced effect on heli attitude, requiring excessive use of the WASDXC keys, including near constant use of W to maintain speed. A dev once wrote on these forums that he only uses the keys for control, and the mouse for head motion. I find that impossible, and only use Left-Alt for freelook, with "Freelook interaction" disabled. *

Having autotrim disabled on Expert greatly increases difficulty, so I do not at all understand why mouse control was seriously degraded as well. On Trainee, the mouse can be used with great success to fly the heli, of course in conjunction with the keys.

I realize that manual trim can be used to correct for persistent undesired attitude changes, but that is not very feasible in difficult Expert flying, like the time trials. Even with manual trim engaged, the mouse is nearly useless.

Flying with the mouse + keys IS MUCH MORE FUN than using just the keys! Is it recommended to greatly increase mouse sensitivity when playing on Expert? I brought up this issue in the preview forum after 84444 came out.

*I don't understand the freelook interaction control. What is the difference between disabled and default off? I guess with "default off" you can use a key to enable it in-game?

Edited October 8, 2011 by OMAC

[OMAC 254]

After extensive testing, I am quite psyched about the flight models for light and medium helis. Trainee is quite easy and lots of fun, and Expert is much more challenging, and even more fun. I don't think Expert should be tweaked all that much, I generally think BIS has nailed it. Obviously heli responsiveness to control input is vital, and I think that's basically right on.

Overall, the only "problem" I have run into is the fluctuations in FPS caused by CPU-limited drawing of objects - when doing very intense banks and other maneuvers that require object redrawing, frame rates can go way down just when you need them to be as high as possible.

It is painful having to decrease object detail and object view distance, but that is necessary to get stable FPS. I've found that FPS is really only a problem in very intense flying, like in the Time Trials - the ultimate test. I recommend also disabling PiP for the trials - you won't have time to look in the mirror anyway. As Liquidpinky and others have noted, even core i7s with >4 GHz can be slow if object detail/view dist. are set too high.

So, what needs careful examination and optimization is CPU/GPU usage, and how to make FPS as stable as possible when playing. Even when FPS is in the mid to low 20's, the game is very playable, but sudden, temporary drops caused by object redrawing can be annoying.

Video settings used in A2 CO/RNF are simply not viable with ToH on the same computer - serious tweaking is necessary.

I also think that the controls should be simplified, and all the A2 stuff should be made more secondary to the heli controls that matter for most users.

The music, challenge missions, heli modelling, environment, and overall game design are works of art. Just FN awesome. Whoa.

I am not absolutely sure that the Gold Times are achievable/realistic on Expert with kb/mouse. Has anyone at BIS actually done that? If so, MAN, they are good. I've beaten bronze times for all trials on Expert!

I also want to thank BIS for making the transparent map viewable with the G key by default. A big improvement from the preview.

Also, soft, flushable CTDs are still a big issue on my system. It is interesting to note that NVIDIA has said that the next WHQL 285 series driver will have fixes that address the TDR problems - maybe this will help. Perhaps AToC=7 is causing the problem again?

One or more ToH benchmark scenarios would be very useful to test your video settings; at least one should be in the middle of downtown Seattle with the skyscrapers, and involve several very hard banks, dips, etc. Exterior and interior views, with horizon visible, should be included.

The manual that comes with the beta and describes basic heli operation using the keys is great. It is interesting to note that collective (analog) +/- are not bound by default, and the manual describes using Q/Z for collective. That is fine, but I long ago gave up Q/Z for the analog controls, which work great (I bind collective + to left shift, and collective - to left Windows key; Q/Z can still be used, but I haven't used them yet with this beta).

I think BIS has hit the ball out of the park with this beta.

Edited October 10, 2011 by OMAC

[4 IN 1 0]

This topic have me wondering how far or close the FM of both mid and light class is compare to their RL counterpart, and how differently the handling is comparing turbine ship and a piston ship.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

well, a porsch and a honda civic are both cars, they both operate on the basic principals and follow the same physics laws. sure one might have better performance than the other but they drive the same way just like comparing helicopters. so piston and turbine is pretty much the same thing except for the different components required to make them operational, mainly the engine with pistons and a carburetor for piston engine and a turbine for turbine engines.

Edited October 12, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast