The trouble with getting people into Arma

[Tonci87 163]

Interesting Video. The AI has been improved. Animations will hopefully be improved in Arma 3, Soundmods like JSRS are really adding to the athmosphere and maybe BIS will have good SOunds for Arma 3. I guess Arma 3 will be amazing

[mr burns 132]

Underground community? :D

:couch:

[Undeceived 392]

Great video!

[Dwarden 1125]

author of that video has tons of false assumptions or mistaken remarks (some are urban myths) ...

some of his comments shows he also didn't play lot of games (probably quite young too)

he has some good points too ...

[Undeceived 392]

author of that video has tons of false assumptions or mistaken remarks (some are urban myths) ...

This might be the case but in his general assumption he is right (which is a good sign and advertising for Arma).

[Flash Thunder 10]

So new animations, better sound engine and better AI.

New animations check but we still haven't seen them.

Sound engine, still need more information

AI, Ill believe it when I see it.

[froggyluv 2136]

Dunno, I take exception to his blasting the AI as "the worst". Sure its got issues and can be very inconsistent but the caveat of open world, potential 100's to 1000's, unscripted - I feel is really missing. What to compare it too? Scripted AI shooters? IMHO Arma2 AI is really all by itself in almost uncharted territory -sort of like stating Earth's space traveling vehicles are crude and simplistic - may be true but compared to what?!?

[Flash Thunder 10]

Well the mindset of the average gamer would say what he said without knowing the full context of Arma.

Its the only point that's invalid from what I remember in the video.

Mainly the AI should

stop standing in the open

stop running around in circles

take cover when being shot

medics should help revive player faster

Better drivers and better pilots

Can deal with enclosed spaces

I know I only bought Arma 2 because of Coop and AI fights with myself not because of impressive PVP player numbers.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

Dunno, I take exception to his blasting the AI as "the worst". Sure its got issues and can be very inconsistent but the caveat of open world, potential 100's to 1000's, unscripted - I feel is really missing. What to compare it too? Scripted AI shooters? IMHO Arma2 AI is really all by itself in almost uncharted territory -sort of like stating Earth's space traveling vehicles are crude and simplistic - may be true but compared to what?!?

Nailed it.

[Undeceived 392]

Dunno, I take exception to his blasting the AI as "the worst". Sure its got issues and can be very inconsistent but the caveat of open world, potential 100's to 1000's, unscripted - I feel is really missing. What to compare it too? Scripted AI shooters? IMHO Arma2 AI is really all by itself in almost uncharted territory -sort of like stating Earth's space traveling vehicles are crude and simplistic - may be true but compared to what?!?

You're completely right. But the problem is that most people simply don't know the difference between a real AI like Arma offers it and a scripted AI which we can see in many common FPS. So yes, Dwarden is right when he says that there are a lot of false assumptions in the video.

But...

Mainly the AI should

stop standing in the open

stop running around in circles

take cover when being shot

medics should help revive player faster

Better drivers and better pilots

Can deal with enclosed spaces

That is what hits the nail on the head! You never will convince people that there is a main difference between real (A2) and scripted AI when the scripted AI in COD and BF3 won't do things like the ones that Flash Thunder mentioned. For the average FPS player these are signs of a bad and stupid AI - it's a fact (as wrong and bullshittish as it might be)!

And in my opinion it is to 100% related with the topic of this thread: This is one of the troubles with getting people into Arma.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Undeceived

[saltatormortis 12]

and one main thing is too that reality is a dubble eged sword.

on the one side we have the simulation part and on the other we have the felt sense of the reality..

even if the simulation is matching if it dont feel realisic they dont have fun.

and thats the point every player have another sense of reality.. and this is based on the gaming expirience and on the superficial knowledge the gamer earned in his live.

you need an good mix of both to get a player to your game..

[Cripsis 10]

I'm inclined to think the new animations and AI improvements will have a big influence on enticing new players to ARMA3. I was impressed with the ragdoll animations shown at E3, when games are pleasing to the eye it makes the gaming experience even more enjoyable.

[Pummel 10]

I don't think there is anything deep to uncover, I think it's just that the number of people who want a more simulation experience is smaller than the number who want to stuff their face with popcorn and play Call of Orsum or whatever else. It's just taste, and I think the majority prefer the other type of games and the few like Arma. It is just the way it is with gaming, and same goes for film and music and probably lots of other hobbies too. The only important thing, is just how big is gaming as a whole? Because if it's not that big, then your niche might not be big enough for a company to survive. If gaming is gigantic (and it is getting that way these days), then even a niche can be enough to support a company. It's never going to be World of Warcraft popular, but Arma 2 has obviously sold well enough to afford BIS to make a sequel, and that's good enough for me. Hopefully they can keep it going because they are one of the few companies left who haven't sold out and started making disposable games for mindless teenagers - like Bioware did.

[moizeus 1]

Also other reasons is cause this generation of gamers want "Instant Gratification" for their actions. Look at new games like CoD MW, and BF3. Is just a bloodfest of shooting no point in taking your time to do tactical stuff.

[Flash Thunder 10]

Also other reasons is cause this generation of gamers want "Instant Gratification" for their actions. Look at new games like CoD MW, and BF3. Is just a bloodfest of shooting no point in taking your time to do tactical stuff.

Its funny people who say they want to do tactical things, yet when i watch their gameplay I never see anything tactical, never checking corners, watching flanks, marking/spotting high value targets. Nada zilch zippy.

In the end after everything is made more accessible it all comes down to if people have time to play Arma 3 or if they have time to play some multiplayer on a COD/BF/any other arcade FPS. Time is finite most people don't like learning to play a game to have fun, after all its suppose to be fun right? At least I bought Arma 2 to have fun with it rather than to do ultra realistic military skirmishes.

[Banshee 9]

What BIS would really need is a group of UI/UX experts, doing some user research.

This would give BIS an overview of what's wrong with the game and UI in terms of new players not staying long enough with Arma to finally get into the game at a full extend.

It's not about the possible depth of simulation, scripting etc. It's about how easy it is to get into Arma gaming.

The new training in OA allready was a huge step into the right direction. But maybe more fluent movement, better interaction design and less buggy interactions and CQB movement would be a great improvement.

For example: Why is it such a pain in the ass to climb a ladder up? Climbing it down it's even more painfully. It's so hard to find the correct spot that I've seen people giving up to climb it a lot.

Another example: The action menu and the commanding menu. Those needs a huge overhaul in terms of usability. Why do we still have the ability to change our weapon in there? Most people are used to 1,2,3,4 to switch weapons. With a layered menu like the ACE menus, you're actually be able to not have to memorize all the numbers to assign your AI or teammates to certain groups. Or to order them "stop" while still having the ability to use numbers for faster accessability.

Those are just a few examples of strange input requirements.

Another big point, and the most important one: Mods, updates and servers.

As someone new to Arma, it's not obvious, that there are mods out there, and that there are a lot of servers that run mods. It's not obvious, that there is a tool called Six-Updater. It's not obvious to them wich servers run mods and wich don't.

There is no direct and good feedback for players trying to join a server why they're getting kicked out.

They simply get kicked for not having the correct mods or mods at all.

Desired behaviour for this: Include the Six-Updater into Arma, or make it the only way to get Arma and all the updates. Do not use an ingame server browser anymore, but only the Six-Updater.

If people intend to join a server, SU will determine that the server runs mods, it'll ask the player if he wants to install/update the mods to join the server and all that.

Of course SU will need to get more user-friendly and performant to accomplish the task. But the foundation allready is there.

Having a SU-like tool beeing mandantory to start Arma, all the hassle with mods or no mods could be gone. At least from a players perspective. And this will allready be a huge improvement. I think it's the biggest barrier for new players: Find a public server that runs vanilla and get involved.

IF people find a public server that runs vanilla only, they'll not get involved, because the missions that are running on those, are not very self explaining. Let's take a warfare for example: It's not self-explaining, what the next target is, where to get vehicles to get there, where to get other weapons.

Better might be a domination with designated chopper pilots. People will find weapon crates. Then see a chopper and might get in one and get transported somewhere, just to wander around without really knowing what to do.

Most people will get frustrated and stop beeing intrested in a fast period of time. Just imagine: You try to join some servers. After the 6th try you actually don't get kicked without knowing why.

You're on the server and allready frustrated. Now you are finally up for some action. But where is it? Where are all the people? Ah,... cool! Weapons. Let's try those out and shoot a bit at base. Wait, why did I get kicked? Damn.

If people are not allready sick of playing Arma then, they might try to rejoin the server or try to find another one. Good, they're finally on a server, have learnt to not shoot at base. What now? Sitting around for 5 minutes without doing stuff, they allready are bored. Now they get into a vehicle/chopper and try to look around. Just to get their asses whooped by a serveradmin, telling them to get on TS. But they possibly don't know the TS3 adress. Why would they? So they might leave at this point or wait another 5 minutes until finally someone might show up.

But what's then? Boarding a chopper, flying, getting out and possibly following a teammate just to get shot by enemy after a short period of time. What's next? Waiting 2-4 minutes in the dead script, respawning at base and waiting another 5-10 minutes for transport ...

I could continue here, but probably most of you know how this story evolves. You've been trough this yourself.

That's the reason why I don't play on public servers very often. That's why new people get confused and frustrated very quickly.

Try to solve those issues, and you might actually be able to drag more attention and get more players in that play for a longer period of time and buy DLC's and follow-up titles.

[froggyluv 2136]

@Banshee: Great post and +1 all around and pretty much sums up the MP experience for many I believe.

Also if Servers could add a "desired personality meter' such as:

Criminally Verbose----Insistent Gabbers-----Chronically Extroverts------Excessive Radio Talk Discouraged----At Least Say Hello-----Monk's Stoicism Realized-------Aspergers is Fun-----STFU-GTFO!

Nothing worse then finally making into a decent server only to find old maids in the library for quiet reading time ambience :bored:

Edited February 6, 2012 by froggyluv

[NoRailgunner 0]

Some players only join + play on servers which are populated eg 30+ or 50+.

Some players expecting missions that are simple, fast-paced and have some sort of instant-gratification.

Some players expecting missions that are trying to portray real combat situations with limited/no respawns.

Some players expecting missions that have the best from both mission types above.

Some players don't expect anything they just want to have fun with run'n'gun, make some big explosions and don't care about teamplay or mission plans.

Some players only like to test or train something.

Maybe somekind "MP training missions" could help new players to practice basic and later advanced stuff together? Lets say 2-12 people in one MP training course?

[xeno 234]

IF people find a public server that runs vanilla only, they'll not get involved, because the missions that are running on those, are not very self explaining.

Don't forget that all the missions on public (and also on closed) servers are not made by BIS which means that the people who make those missions are just doing all that in their spare time.

Priority is not holding the players hand and constantly tell him what to do but shipping around the many MP hurdles of the engine and have a mission that works from start to end (oth opening the map and reading the notes is just one click away...).

Plus, there are no BIS servers but all servers are payed by individual groups.

Xeno

[tacticalnuggets 24]

I think the obvious answer exists in the automatic mod downloading thread. Almost all my friends play MP unless its a single player only game. Its an absolute nightmare for them to join an arma2 server, and most are empty. They think the game has the potential to be amazing but absolutely hate the multiplayer system. Its pretty obvious, in my mind, that the way to fix this game is by fixing multiplayer capabilities.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think the obvious answer exists in the automatic mod downloading thread. Almost all my friends play MP unless its a single player only game. Its an absolute nightmare for them to join an arma2 server, and most are empty. They think the game has the potential to be amazing but absolutely hate the multiplayer system. Its pretty obvious, in my mind, that the way to fix this game is by fixing multiplayer capabilities.

Yes the mod handling definitely needs a workover (as well as the UI IMO). It's been mentioned many times that a dynamic mod handling feature would help a LOT of people navigate the servers (me included). ArmA's main strength is also it's main weakness.

I've suggested before (possibly in this very thread) that auto mod downloading and ingame mod shuffling would be a most welcome addition. The game needs to be able to work out which mix of mods is required, and switch off the ones that are not required. As it currently stands this means a game reboot, with a manual removal/inclusion of mods, before finding out whether you were successful in your mixing skills :)

If the game could auto handle this, and also have a "silent reboot" feature where the game *apparently* stays online while it does all this, the headache of mod management becomes one of merely finding them if auto-download is not enabled for that server. I think it could work.

[[evo] dan 79]

+1 to ^

[SPC.Spets 21]

the only truth and short version is, most people(gamers) wants to shoot, run, and respawn over and over, to shoot run kill and die. and also people wants scores and k/d

When you see on some gamers forums talking about games like COD or BF3 they talk about realism, and recoil, and shit like that, then you mention Arma2 and they say, wow, that is too much of realism lol

This is a game/sim for people who loves it, and understand it. I think it haves to like you from the beginning, otherwise it never going to be your game/sim because form the start Arma2 is alittle bit frustrating, difficult, hardcore, also harwdware demanding. You should ask your friends why they dont like, why did they quit Arma2

EDIT: and dont get me wrong, I play COD4 and BF3 a lot too!

Edited February 8, 2012 by SpetS15

[tacticalnuggets 24]

the only truth and short version is, most people(gamers) wants to shoot, run, and respawn over and over, to shoot run kill and die. and also people wants scores and k/d

When you see on some gamers forums talking about games like COD or BF3 they talk about realism, and recoil, and shit like that, then you mention Arma2 and they say, wow, that is too much of realism lol

This is a game/sim for people who loves it, and understand it. I think it haves to like you from the beginning, otherwise it never going to be your game/sim because form the start Arma2 is alittle bit frustrating, difficult, hardcore, also harwdware demanding. You should ask your friends why they dont like, why did they quit Arma2

EDIT: and dont get me wrong, I play COD4 and BF3 a lot too!

I just dont think this is true. There are plenty of mods that missions that have all the things you have mentioned. The problem is accessing them. Too many people I talked to say they have trouble playing this game because its realistic but lacks people to enjoy it with online.

[SPC.Spets 21]

What I mean is most of the players wants games like COD, MW2-3 or BF3, just respawn and start shooting, a fast paced game, you know