The trouble with getting people into Arma

[metalcraze 290]

Uh, what BF3 have you played? Soft Pop-Pops? Sounds more like ArmA to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa2GSE5nMO4&feature=related

pop pop click click pop pop click click

At least BF3's explosions and vehicles sound better, at least IMO.

You mean animals they used for tanks and falling buildings sound better than real tanks and falling buildings? OK.

And, I was mainly talking about COD's AI. But only in regards to their behavior, such as shooting from behind cover, and that nature. AI in MW do run behind cars and buildings.

There's no AI in CoD.

They run behind cars and buildings because script tells them to run there and stay there.

When I played CoDMW I specifically reloaded at one place all the time just to test this out. And all the time bots run exactly behind the same car and to the same corner.

How do you imagine scripting 3d models to do this in a world where you don't have invisible walls 5 meters to your left and right and can come from any direction?

That's why ArmA is forced to use real AI and not a bunch of scripts.

And they actually run away from things like grenades.

Only if there is a script for that - and even then after running away (a few meters) they get back to the exactly the same position. Throw 2 grenades and they will always get killed by the second. But most of the time they don't even run. You will never see a bot running away from a grenade if it's a tight corridor since they can't let you move further with that bot alive as it will break the "immersion" when another bunch of 3d models spawn. Even then I've been a witness to crappy scripting where bots often ran past each other if a player moves too fast ahead (and friendlies move ONLY at the pacing of a player) shooting only if the player stops and the script forcing them into pre-defined cover is allowed to kick in.

Using this little knowledge I was been able to exploit dumb bots to no end.

Every single movement isn't scripted. At least the bots in MW seemed a little more life-like. And at least they did other things than shoot, like, say, threw grenades at you.

ArmA AI throws grenades whenever it can too. It doesn't take any complex programming just like shooting, especially when it's aimbots like in CoD which see you wherever you are. They will always face you and your bros and will always send bullets flying there. CoD's bot shooting isn't even well scripted. When you get killed they keep shooting at your dead body like there's no tomorrow.

And, by the way, Blops (which I hate) had MP bots.

So were they acting totally "lifelike" just like in SP?

You should understand why it's so easy to create an illusion of smart AI using mere scripts within a completely linear corridor where a player can't step left or right from script rails (or even move forwards or backwards unless allowed to by the game) and why it's impossible to do script rails in an open free-approach world where scripts will simply not work.

CoD is like movie actors which do things the same way all the time. It's like a movie which will stay the same all the time but will look cool. CM tried to do what Bohemia did in Derp Rising and failed - so what did they do next? Correct - a CoD clone full with primitive scripted bots called Red River.

Edited January 22, 2012 by metalcraze

[froggyluv 2130]

I think we'd all like a more lifelike CQB experience outta Arma but comparing an open 3d world AI to small, confined, easily controlled levels of most shooters is just a bad idea. Someone mentioned Pacman -expert AI pathfinding is it not? Now take those four colorful ghosts and have em try and hunt you down in a virtual 3d country :D

[Minoza 11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa2GSE5nMO4&feature=related

pop pop click click pop pop click click

You mean animals they used for tanks and falling buildings sound better than real tanks and falling buildings? OK.

...

I'll just comment these:

1. You post beta footage as a proof of pop pop sounds. Seriously?

I also think BF3 gunfights sound a lot better then what vanilla Arma 2 offers, mainly cause of good sound engine, sounds itself could be better, but even those roaring lions sound better then vanilla Arma 2 guns and explosions (well, most of them)

2. It's a thing of perception, if it sounds convincing, it doesn't matter how it was achieved. I fail to see why recorded sound would instantly sound better only because it's "original"...

Also, since vanilla Arma sounds are so good compared to BF3, how come a well known mod like JSRS sounds much closer to BF3 then to Arma 2? The thing with you metalcraze, is, you often take on (lol) the games like BF, yet I got a feeling that you haven't even bothered to play them and see what others are talking about. It's not that bad game at all, you should try it, it's fun.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Minoza

[maturin 12]

1. You post beta footage as a proof of pop pop sounds. Seriously?

You think they change their sound samples in-between beta and release? Seriously?

They gathered those sounds through expensive trips to firing ranges and purchases of sound libraries weeks before beta was released. It's a playable beta, an advertisement for the game, with full flashiness and graphics. They definitely didn't fit a whole bunch of placeholder sounds into their complicated, detailed sound engine.

BF3 gun sounds are a lot of click, click, pop, just like CoD. Sure, Dice has an amazing engine, but their samples are at the same time Hollywoodified and also toned down for a nice and easy game. Sure, vanilla ArmA audio sucks, but if you ever had the same volume of fire in ArmA (with JSRS installed) as you have in an average CoD firefight, you would go deaf.

[Minoza 11]

They haven't changed the sound samples, but they did change the settings for those samples. Make a pop go loud and you have something new.

[antoineflemming 14]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa2GSE5nMO4&feature=related

pop pop click click pop pop click click

Sorry, that doesn't sound like animals to me, simply convinces me even more of how much better the FB2 sound system and samples are than that of ArmA2. No "soft-pops" there.

Here's a video for you:

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Sounds pretty loud to me. Maybe you need to just turn your speakers up. Oh, and by the way, gunshots do sound like loud pops from distance.

Here's another comparing BF3's sounds to MW3's sounds. Once again, not "soft".

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And Minoza is right, if it takes some extra effects to make gun sounds actually sound right, then that's what it takes. That's what it takes to make them sound different in different environments. Heck, at LEAST they actually try. Even some of the MW3 sounds actually sound better than the ArmA sounds.

Edited January 22, 2012 by antoineflemming

[Flogger23m 2]

I think most of us can agree that the default ArmA 2 sounds vary. From mediocre (AKM) to garbage (mounted PKT/PKM on the MI-8). Which I always found odd, because the default portable PKM sounds decent. I know the RPM, barrel length might be different for the mounted versions, though I honestly do not know. But I do know that any gun shot sound would be better than the one it has by default.

Thankfully, sound mods make ArmA 2 sound so much better. One thing ArmA 3 should take from BF3 are the animations. Slapping the side of a M240 looks silly, and loading a Carl Gustav from the front as if it were an RPG-7 does to. Adding realistic reloading lengths would be nice to. The abnormally quick reload times for the anti tank weapons make the infantry artificially good against armor in the ArmA series. It is ugly and brings up realism issues. There are so many good animators out there for first person weapon animations you would think BIS would hire one already. :p

The following animation is over done to look flashy, but you can see how smooth it looks:

If ArmA 3 could have animations like that (aside from being flashy) it would add to the immersion more.

I would also like a better campaign. I never played Flashpoint, but if the campaign is as good as you all say, I would like to play such a campaign in ArmA 3.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Flogger23m

[katipo66 94]

Yep, even BF2 weapons sound superior to Arma, its been said they use trickery etc but who cares, other than that i actually like Arma default sounds except for the weapons and the footsteps on concrete/asphalt?

One thing i do like when watching them BF3 videos is the HQ radio communications...

I would also like a better campaign. I never played Flashpoint, but if the campaign is as good as you all say, I would like to play such a campaign in ArmA 3.

As long as they leave out the cheesy hollywood b grade voice acting from red harvest :D

Edited January 22, 2012 by Katipo66

[Flogger23m 2]

Yep, even BF2 weapons sound superior to Arma, its been said they use trickery etc but who cares, other than that i actually like Arma default sounds except for the weapons and the footsteps on concrete/asphalt?

One thing i do like when watching them BF3 videos is the HQ radio communications...

As long as they leave out the cheesy hollywood b grade voice acting from red harvest :D

Arrowhead was much better in this department. ArmA 2's voice acting was horrible to the point where it became distracting. They don't need professionals, but they should sound somewhat convincing. If they can not get good voice actors they might as well cut out the "story sequences" and just make a campaign that follows a conflict, portraying various units. For example, a rifle squad, then the next mission you play as a Stinger team, ect.

And maybe make two campaigns, or one from both perspectives.

[NoRailgunner 0]

How do you know how each weapon sound if you don't have heard it in real and in different locations/terrain + conditions?

Isn't it that games are primarily made to entertain and to appeal the masses and their expectations?

Imho its too expensive and time consuming for game devs/publishers to record all the real sounds and implement them properly into their project/game. Guess that more than 70% of players expect something like they have seen + heard in movies anyway.

[Clarkey1 10]

One thing i do like when watching them BF3 videos is the HQ radio communications...

Yeah, I'm sure everyone knows it already, but the radio communications sound so flat and robotic in ArmA. From all the footage I've seen of firefights I have never heard soldiers speak like this. BF3 comms have a more human quality to them. I know, "but BF doesn't have as many variations as ArmA". It still needs more improvement and hopefully the changes between A2 and OA are a good sign that they will do even more work in this department. From people I know who didn't really get into ArmA the static (and borderline annoying) comms were a major turn off.

tl;dr

AI radio speech needs to sound alot more casual and fluent to give it a more human (realistic) quality. Soldiers don't speak like robots!

my two cents.

[feralcircus 2]

Someone mentioned Pacman -expert AI pathfinding is it not? Now take those four colorful ghosts and have em try and hunt you down in a virtual 3d country :D

I likened COD and games like that to Packman simply because every mission is practically the same but within a different shaped confined maze like Castle Wolfenstein.

[Flash Thunder 10]

I can't tell you how many times me and my friend died from laughter when we hear Coops say

MY FUCKIN LEG!

or the asian guy say reaper four sounds like weepa foa.

and don't get me started on the kid from trial by fire. *shudders*

CAPTAIN SHAFTOE

[katipo66 94]

Imho its too expensive and time consuming for game devs/publishers to record all the real sounds and implement them properly into their project/game.

Maybe worth effort? LordJarhead managed to improve the weapon sound 100 fold imo all on his own in his free time... for me his MOD makes the game much more enjoyable, id sacrifice reality for believability if going on BIS's AK74 (my pet hate) sound being realistic?

[Flash Thunder 10]

Maybe worth effort? LordJarhead managed to improve the weapon sound 100 fold imo all on his own in his free time... for me his MOD makes the game much more enjoyable, id sacrifice reality for believability if going on BIS's AK74 (my pet hate) sound being realistic?

Mods have done phenomenal work to this game without the budgets and the time that BIS has since its their job. I would be happy if the sound effects were on the level of ACE 2, they don't need to be over the top Hollywood but it would be nice to have the sounds different when in tight spaces, echoes in the distance, proper ricochets on different surface types, proper noise levels on larger caliber/explosive weapons (deafening effect) etc, also make it so the rocket sounds don't sound like shiiiiiiiiit. ;)

[Libertine 1]

I think most of us can agree that the default ArmA 2 sounds vary.

Well I've been complaining about A.I. and other stuff, so i should at least pipe in here to point out that IMO Arma 2 has some great sound effects. The movement sound effects are wonderful IMO, the breathing sounds seem perfect as well and footstep sounds are among the best i've ever heard, although a little loud with my headphone setup. Having made footstep sounds, I've looked into a lot of different games to find nice ones. The fact that there is a delay between when you see an explosion and hear it is phenomenal. I know that was on my OFP patch wishlist. The distances that you can hear things is nice too, neither of those are featured shared by other games, at least that im aware of. I also like the 203 grenade explosion sound.

As i understand it, BF3s sound designers focused not so much on improving the effects themselves, but on how the sounds interacted with the environment around them.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Libertine

[antoineflemming 14]

Well I've been complaining about A.I. and other stuff, so i should at least pipe in here to point out that IMO Arma 2 has some great sound effects. The movement sound effects are wonderful IMO, the breathing sounds seem perfect as well and footstep sounds are among the best i've ever heard, although a little loud with my headphone setup. Having made footstep sounds, I've looked into a lot of different games to find nice ones. The fact that there is a delay between when you see an explosion and hear it is phenomenal. I know that was on my OFP patch wishlist. The distances that you can hear things is nice too, neither of those are featured shared by other games, at least that im aware of. I also like the 203 grenade explosion sound.

As i understand it, BF3s sound designers focused not so much on improving the effects themselves, but on how the sounds interacted with the environment around them.

I think you're right about the BF3 sound focus.

[katipo66 94]

footstep sounds are among the best i've ever heard

Except for the footstep sound on concrete/asphalt, maybe its just me but it doesn't sound 'natural'?

[froggyluv 2130]

I think the footsteps overall sound very good albeit, they sound like the action is happening at 'ear level' rather then below you. But thats just nitpicky :D

[Flogger23m 2]

Well I've been complaining about A.I. and other stuff, so i should at least pipe in here to point out that IMO Arma 2 has some great sound effects. The movement sound effects are wonderful IMO, the breathing sounds seem perfect as well and footstep sounds are among the best i've ever heard, although a little loud with my headphone setup. Having made footstep sounds, I've looked into a lot of different games to find nice ones. The fact that there is a delay between when you see an explosion and hear it is phenomenal. I know that was on my OFP patch wishlist. The distances that you can hear things is nice too, neither of those are featured shared by other games, at least that im aware of. I also like the 203 grenade explosion sound.

As i understand it, BF3s sound designers focused not so much on improving the effects themselves, but on how the sounds interacted with the environment around them.

I'll disagree. Again, some are decent, some are pretty bad. Listen to the sound of the mini guns on the UH-1Y. They sound awful. The sounds in ACE 2 are much better.

If all of the sounds can be brought up to ACE's quality, then that would be good enough for me.

Sounds and animations can go a long way into making ArmA feel much more immersible as well as capturing more players.

[maturin 12]

id sacrifice reality for believability if going on BIS's AK74 (my pet hate) sound being realistic?

It's not realistic. Maybe they recorded a real AK74 with a cellphone from five miles away, but it's not realistic.

The AK74 destroys your hearing. It's a major problem in the Russian army right now. It does not sound like a chopstick being snapped in half.

But really, the worst of ArmA's sounds are the result of cheap sound libraries and one-size-fits all sample choices. When BIS put effort into it, they can come up with some good stuff, like the sonic cracks, even if their aesthetic choices (pure sounds, no echo or reverb) don't satisfy many of us.

But the only difference between sound in ArmA and sound in other games is budget.

[maddogx 13]

The AK74 destroys your hearing.

When I read something like this, my first reaction is: "That's all fine and dandy, but I would prefer if the game didn't actually render me deaf just for the sake of realism."

:p

But yeah, one thing that needs pointing out is that the fact that sound samples were recorded live doesn't automatically make their subsequent representation in a game "more realistic". A lot depends on how the sound is presented in the game - in the case of the AK74, they obviously can't make it excessively loud so as to "destroy" the players hearing - but in a good sound engine one could at least emulate the loudness, for example using increased reverb, increasing the bass (so it feels louder) and perhaps even lowering other sounds ("drowning them out").

As I understand it, the RV engine currently does none of the above, so after all the trouble of recording and subsequent editing, even a live-recorded sample sounds like crap. Mods like ACE have actually gone to the trouble of scripting certain effects in order to improve realism, but this is merely a workaround. The sound engine simply needs improving.

Edited January 24, 2012 by MadDogX

[katipo66 94]

It would be great if they could update the sound with something better in a patch, i only care so much as i usually mostly only play Opfor these days and not all servers allow sound mods... and hearing the default is now no longer an option for me, i literally hate it with a passion :D

[Tonci87 163]

It would be great if they could update the sound with something better in a patch, i only care so much as i usually mostly only play Opfor these days and not all servers allow sound mods... and hearing the default is now no longer an option for me, i literally hate it with a passion :D

Yeah me too, thats why I use JSRS

[Cripsis 10]

I think this guy makes a lot of comments very relevant to this thread topic.

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