Thoughts on using enemy uniforms

[fincuan 0]

And you know that from?

Sauce, nao.

He's entirely right. The .50 cal issue is a myth that's just extremely widespread.

If in doubt it's really easy to google up the Geneva conventions and protocols, which do not actually touch this issue though, or the much more relevant Hague conventions. Neither of those prohibit the use of .50 cal against humans.

[bradp191 10]

I'm pretty sure the Hague Convention says something about not using weapons or ammunition that cause horrific wounds or unnecessary suffering. I don't believe .50 cal is ever referenced specifically. Those conventions are all deliberately vague so that everyone can still do whatever they want, but they get to feel better about it. My battalion's JAG officer told us that you can use any weapon the government gives you. This is getting rather off-topic, however.

Regarding the use of enemy uniforms and civilian clothing, that is why the "Tier 1" designation exists according to one of my friends in MARSOC. As I understand it, they don't have to wear uniforms and such, but they also enjoy a little less protection in case of capture. They're not supposed to be classified as spies, though.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think it's a requirement that both sides have to have signed up to the Geneva convention for it to have any enforceable effect.

[b101_uk 10]

Do I sence sarcasm?

:p

Anyways, I meant using .50 caliber ammunition against people. No one even follows that rule. :L

It depends on what you’re using it for and the type of round and if it’s direct or indirect targeting of a person and or the threat to you in NOT taking the shot.

i.e. firing direct at a person is somewhat different to aiming at a vehicle and just so happening to also hit a person inside, likewise using a built specifically designed to kill people is different from using ones designed stop vehicles etc, likewise if not shooting someone would result in your imminent death due to close proximity regardless of the bullet type is different to being 1km+ away and in little imminent danger.

It comes down to causing superfluous injury contra to article 35, 1 & 2:

“1. In any armed conflict, the right of the Parties to the conflict to choose methods or means of warfare is not unlimitedâ€

“2 It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.â€

And article 36:

“In the study, development, acquisition or adoption of a new weapon, means or method of warfare, a High Contracting Party is under an obligation to determine whether its employment would, in some or all circumstances, be prohibited by this Protocol or by any other rule of international law applicable to the High Contracting Party.â€

[bradp191 10]

"Superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering" is completely subjective, though. Like I said, it's deliberately vague. When you get right down to it, none of that shit really matters.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

Well, atleast I got sauce.

Even if the use of .50 is not allowed its still used widely :L.

Now ontopic, civilian uniforms are a must if the storyline is about specops.

That said, I don't like the cheesy Tier 1 super special forces style, the OFP style of being a grunt is more of my interest.

[b101_uk 10]

"Superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering" is completely subjective, though. Like I said, it's deliberately vague. When you get right down to it, none of that shit really matters.

It’s not really that vague, using an anti-material rifle, with AM specific rounds (some AP, incendiary, explosive, penetrator, etc) on people directly rather than on “material†would be a breach as even by their own naming are for the anti-material roll.

Killing someone who is in or behind “material†like in APC or even a soft skin vehicle which is the target it’s self is an entirely different matter.

The above is in part why dumdum’s don’t appear on the battlefield and are specifically legislated against going back to 1899 and why exploding projectiles of < 400 grams are legislated against in the anti personnel projectile roll

Edited September 10, 2011 by b101_uk
edit of: impart - in part!

[HyperU2 11]

It’s not really that vague, using an anti-material rifle, with AM specific rounds (some AP, incendiary, explosive, penetrator, etc) on people directly rather than on “material†would be a breach as even by their own naming are for the anti-material roll.

Killing someone who is in or behind “material†like in APC or even a soft skin vehicle which is the target it’s self is an entirely different matter.

The above is in part why dumdum’s don’t appear on the battlefield and are specifically legislated against going back to 1899 and why exploding projectiles of < 400 grams are legislated against in the anti personnel projectile roll

Except for the 40mm, 30mm and 25mm. Etc.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Back ontopic guys, the thread isn't about Geneva convention policies on ammunition. It's uniforms.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

Back ontopic guys, the thread isn't about Geneva convention policies on ammunition. It's uniforms.

Really? I thought the title was "Arch derails a thread with the Geneva Convention."

Might have to get my eyes checked.... :p

Now ontopic, I highly approve of using enemy and civilian uniforms but the way you change into them right now is terrible. A few seconds and BAM new uniform + all your previous gear on it.

[That guy 10]

i hope the uniform switch feature has to be added into a mission via a module or other scripted activator, and not in the game by defualt.

if its optional then i really dont care too much how its implemented, as its up to the mission designer to make the most of (or abuse the crap out of) the feature.

if its ON ALL THE TIME, then we have got a serious problem, and it needs be be regulated as heavily as every one else on this thread has pointed out.

same goes for in mission weapon attachment swapping. it works for RPG type missions or mods, but for a realistic and authentic mission or scenario, weapon modding need to be relegated to in between missions in briefing screens, or disallowed all together.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

That guy has never took an optic/laser/whatever of a firearm.

Its not really that hard, just don't make it instant.

[Nicholas 5]

There should be a time limit being near an enemy AI where he/they will get suspicious of you, then realize you are enemy and attack. This would not happen if you just run/walk past them all. Only if you are near an AI for a certain amount of time.

How would he get suspicious of you? Only if he maybe approached you and you couldn't speak their language. But if you keep your distance, nothing to worry about.

I also don't believe it will be available all the time, like many of you believe. It was probably a module used only in a few missions. It wouldn't work in multiplayer anyways. Common sense people.

[bradp191 10]

I don't think switching uniforms should work that well. You tend to know the people in your unit. Once you've been operating with the same people for a while, you can identify them by the way they stand in their gear, the way they hold their weapons, the way they walk. Not fitting into that isn't enough to shoot someone, but it's certainly enough to walk up and see who they are.

[rye1 21]

No matter the rules it shall continue to be exploited, this is a high risk maneuvre and one that has dire consequences, hence why only the best and only the most well-planned and reliable operations that need this form of disguise get to use these types of tactics.

They have translators in Arma as it is now, maybe this is where they will truely shine.

One thing that was funny about the video was that they didn't notice his weapon...

'Hey, where'd you get the UMP?'

'I killed one *high five*'.

Modders can do a lot with this stuff. =) It'll be great fun.

[maturin 12]

Yeah, I think people in the same squad should recognize an impostor under a certain distance.

Meanwhile, suspicious behavior like running or crawling should have a high chance of giving you away as people scrutinize you. But the biggest factor should be distance and alert state.

I think it could be balanced fairly well with only a few variables.

[Haystack15 10]

I think this is a good idea. But the only down side is I don't feel like getting yelled at when I killed my teammate accidentally.

btw, grenades always do that for me. So I'm all for the Idea!

[HyperU2 11]

I guess it could be more than just your own unit though, didn't the Iranian special forces dress up as contractors and kidnap/execute 3 US soldiers in Iraq? Shit happens.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16826151/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/soldiers-killed-karbala-were-first-abducted/#.Tmw8ldTS-70

BAGHDAD, Iraq — In perhaps the boldest and most sophisticated attack in four years of warfare, four U.S. soldiers later found dead were first abducted from a compound by militants speaking English, wearing U.S. uniforms and carrying American weapons — and did not die at the compound as the military first reported.

Edited September 11, 2011 by HyperU2

[Minoza 11]

Don't know if someone mentioned it, but it's likely that enemy will notice bullet holes on your uniform... I find it funny how he shot him like 5-6 times in the video yet uniform didn't have any marks on it. Some sort of procedural damage through textures is needed, just like with vehicles. Well, at least that, if not even something better/more accurate.

[coder4crack 10]

another thing to consider... how will players be notified that the naked body they hid has been found after stealing his clothes? will there be notification in the first place? maybe via enemy radio chatter?

Edited September 11, 2011 by coder4crack

[Alex72 1]

Like many things in the ARMA series we have a lot of options to use, and thats bloody cool. Being able to change uniform can be used by them who want/need it for their missions/campaigns, and those who think its ridiculous have total freedom to skip it completely - apart from the stock campaign i guess, but that just a bunch of mission among (soon enough) thousands. ;)

I think it will be a great addition when doing some special SF missions. Just hope as well its not too easy.

[onlyrazor 11]

It would be cool if, instead of the "Hide Body" system, a body movement option (kind of like in DX: Human Revolution) would be used to drag the body far away and get rid of it. Then again, bodies weigh a lot.

[jw custom 56]

and those who think its ridiculous have total freedom to skip it completely

Yes if we have the ability to disable it script wise :)

[b00ce 160]

Or a module that enables it, perhaps?

[maturin 12]

One problem I just realized is stealing uniforms and vehicles.

Currently, a Russian soldier hidden inside an Abrams is instantly identified as a Russian tank commander and the tank is viewed as a threat.'

This must be updated, or the crew of an Abrams will be able to take the uniform of the first enemy they kill, climb back into the tank, and then drive to Tehran unnoticed.