3rd person and crosshair - enable by default in MP?

[maddogx 13]

Freestyle/custom isn't necessary because they're all customisable anyway. They're only presets.

Which is precisely the problem.

People joining a veteran server expect veteran difficulty. If I can run a server in "veteran" mode, but set everything to easy and enable most of the comfort features, what's the bloody point of calling it veteran? ;)

[dmarkwick 261]

Ego boost :D

I might suggest that "veteran" be a hard coded option? :)

*edit*

OK, I guess we're back to 4 settings, recruit, normal, veteran, and a final, hardcoded "hardcore" option, for simple browser ID?

Edited August 30, 2011 by DMarkwick

[kernriver 4]

My mind is spinning right now from all the options, but if someone could combine MadDog's and Markwik's suggestions, I think we'd have a winner. :D

With maybe a general consensus that Veteran difficulty is really Veteran, all helpers (or almost all) OFF/non-editable.

[PeterBitt 10]

I believe it should be:

Recruit/Easy

• Map helpers: Default on
  
• 3rdPOV, Crosshairs: Default on
  
• AI difficulty: Default easy, optional
  

Regular/Normal

• Map helpers: Default off, optional
  
• 3rdPOV, Crosshairs: Default off, optional
  
• AI difficulty: Default normal, optional
  

Veteran/Hardcore

• Map helpers: Off
  
• 3rdPOV, Crosshairs: Off
  
• AI difficulty: Hard
  

I think it would make sense to have veteran actually be what it says, not just a name for a harder set of defaults that can basically be changed back to regular. As they say in Germany (paraphrased): "If it says 'Veteran' on the box, there should be 'Veteran' inside."

Anyone wanting the full range of options can simply play regular.

100% agreed.

just give us "mindless realism crowds" a proper veteran mode and i promise much less discussions on 3P, crosshair and stuff.

and as reminder: also we need the difficulty settings of each server clearly visible in the browser.

Edited August 30, 2011 by PeterBitt

[*LK1* 10]

like the 3d view the crosshair is not so arcadish as the people might think. there's a reason to use crosshairs in fps games until we will not have a monitor big like a wall and an avatar big like a real human being. unlike the 3 view the crosshair has not bad collateral conseguences if it's well designed. that's why i wellcome the crosshair even for the highest difficulty level.

[maddogx 13]

like the 3d view the crosshair is not so arcadish as the people might think. there's a reason to use crosshairs in fps games until we will not have a monitor big like a wall and an avatar big like a real human being. unlike the 3 view the crosshair has not bad collateral conseguences if it's well designed. that's why i wellcome the crosshair even for the highest difficulty level.

DMarkwick made that distinction in his post (the one after mine that PB quoted), and it does look like the better solution (slightly paraphrased to avoid confusion):

Recruit/Easy

• Map helpers: Default on
  
• Waypoint helpers: Default on
  
• Tags/identifiers: Default on
  
• Crosshairs: Default on
  
• 3rdPOV: available
  
• AI difficulty: Default easy, optional
  
• Peripheral blobs: Default coloured
  

Regular/Normal

• Map helpers: Partial on, optional
  
• Waypoint helpers: Default on
  
• Tags/identifiers: Default on
  
• Crosshairs: Default on
  
• 3rdPOV: Unavailable by default, but optional
  
• AI difficulty: Default hard, optional
  
• Peripheral blobs: Default uncoloured
  

Veteran/Hardcore

• Map helpers: Off
  
• Waypoint helpers: Off
  
• Tags/identifiers: Off
  
• Crosshairs: Default off, optional
  
• 3rdPOV: Off
  
• AI difficulty: Hard
  
• Peripheral blobs: uncoloured
  

[*LK1* 10]

DMarkwick made that distinction in his post (the one after mine that PB quoted), and it does look like the better solution (slightly paraphrased to avoid confusion):

ye i agree. just wanted to expose the reason of my vote.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Ego boost :D

No, it's more a "know what to expect when you join" kind of thing.

I might suggest that "veteran" be a hard coded option? :)

Like, uhm, I don't know, "Expert"? :D

OK, I guess we're back to 4 settings, recruit, normal, veteran, and a final, hardcoded "hardcore" option, for simple browser ID?

Was wondering when it would come back to that. :p The issue here is public games. Expert is far too difficult to be meaningful to public play due typical lack of communications. But it's still a valuable option when clans close down their server for a private session, without having to mess with difficulty configs every time.

Maybe a better idea is the four difficulty options set in stone, with an added "custom" difficulty where nothing is locked down? For me, what is allowed to adjust in Veteran, is too forgiving.

Don't forget there will likely be TAKOH FM related difficulties as well in Arma3.

[*LK1* 10]

edit.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[djfluffwug 10]

Shouldn't this be in the Wishlist and Ideas thread?

Plus there is a very similar thread that was posted about nearly the same thing.

Edited August 31, 2011 by djfluffwug

[.kju 3244]

they're all customisable anyway

wrong

---

People you forget there is also mercenary.

It is unlikely that BI will drop it.

---

Crosshair and 3rd should be active by default. Like it is now.

However server admins should be able to change the default to what they prefer.

[dmarkwick 261]

wrong

??? I can customise my settings in all the modes.

People you forget there is also mercenary.

It is unlikely that BI will drop it.

I don't see a Mercenary settings preset in my GUI. I see recruit, normal, veteran & expert.

Crosshair and 3rd should be active by default. Like it is now.

However server admins should be able to change the default to what they prefer.

For every difficulty mode? That seems to be the main gripe, we're trying to hammer out more appropriate default settings for each mode.

[maddogx 13]

PvPScene, the point was to merge veteran and expert mode into one, so that we have three easily distinguishable difficulty modes that everyone can relate to: easy, normal and hard. I've never seen much sense in having more than three, not in Arma nor any other game. Ask someone new to Arma what they think the difference between "veteran" and "expert" is, they probably couldn't even tell you which is the higher difficulty level without actually looking at the list. It's counter-intuitive.

As for the fact that admins can change the settings, that's all well and good until a player wants to find a server that actually suits his preferences. We're arguing to make the system more transparent to everyone, so that you don't have to connect to a server, pick a slot, download the mission, load up the map and join the game in order to finally find out whether or not crosshairs and 3rd person are deactivated.

[.kju 3244]

Mercenary is called Expert in the textual form.

By default Recruit, Regular, Veteran and Mercenary have different settings.

You can check them here:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/server.armaprofile#Arrowhead

As BI wanted to have the differences, yes Veteran and Mercenary are very different,

BI has made 4 settings. The settings and to have four sounds sensible to me.

You can refer to Mercenary/Expert as hardcore mode. Everything disabled and

highest AI skill levels. Most prominent kill messages and weapon cursor off.

As said again the problem is the missing ability to change the default difficulty in MP.

Edited August 31, 2011 by .kju [PvPscene]

[maddogx 13]

Admittedly, I wasn't aware that expert mode is quite so locked down until I saw that overview. In that case you are right: the main problem is the inability to change the default difficulty.

Still, one other thing I would advocate to change is the default setting of 3rd person view on veteran to off.

As for having 3 or 4 different difficulty modes, I'd still say three is enough - but that's just personal preference. From the perspective of a newcomer wanting to get right into the "hardcore" side of Arma3 however, having both "expert" and "veteran" servers in the list must be confusing. Neither word inherently implies a higher difficulty level to the other. Add to that the fact that 3rd person is enabled by default on veteran and the confusion is complete. So again, I say: 3rdPOV off by default on veteran.

Also, in order to cater to the hardcore community, I think expert level servers should be highlighted on the server list, aswell as filterable. ("Show only expert servers", "Do not show expert servers", "Show all") :)

Edited August 31, 2011 by MadDogX

[.kju 3244]

CIT #14703: The create game dialog does not show default difficulty on a dedicated server

CIT #14140: Make it possible to change the default difficulty for a DS

CIT #6406: MP DS difficulty settings cannot be fully overwritten

CIT #23971: Disable 3rd person view in Veteran difficulty by default

CIT #23972: Rename Expert/Mercenary difficulty to Hardcore

CIT #23973: Add additional server filter: difficulty

[maddogx 13]

Sweet, thanks. :)

[Herbal Influence 10]

No-third-view is like cutting a lot of environmental awarenes from the game.

It should never be called "more hard" or "more realistic".

3rd view sure adds unrealistic elements too but environmental awarenes is the most important thing for an inf soldier.

"Tunnel view", as you can call No-third-view, is that unrealistic that nobody ever would go into war that way.

Not even leave the house.

He would be a most easy target for any sleepy taxidriver.

Is this more real?:

Sure you can compensate using tunnelview (that is No-3rd-view): Steadily nervously letting your head circle around. But that does not only use two more keys to press <alt> <mouse>, but does secondly look alike unnatural.

I found this video and use it as an exemplary:

http://vimeo.com/10315725

At any time it is possible to shoot this guys from behind and from aside.

Only the unrealitic foreseeable "cleanliness" of the battlefield makes it possible to be "successful".

for keeping the freedom in the game and setting defaults that allow newbies to love and understand this most complex game.

Ok, I was again a bit provocative. I am ready to get hit for it. I know the majority of keyboard rapers here don't share my POV.

But I DO see the nipples of my girlfriend coming from behind my back while I am typing this. I see them already when she is quite behind my back.

If I draw a straight line from shoulders end to shoulders end: One nipple passes - I see it ... it's a 180 degree-view or even more.

Am I a strange person? Sure. But I can assure you, before you started playing tons of hours with No-third-view i.e. tunnelview mode, you could do it too! ;-)

Evolution wanted it so. So that we can take notice of dangerous animals while hunting in the woods ... or our demanding girlfriends.

Well, if you don't see her approaching from behind that's why you sometimes stay on the PC the whole night instead of having sex with her? ;-)

But to put a bit more oil into that fire: The poll above shows a little less people for 3rd view. You know why? Because more "hardcore" gamers are to a larger number part of the forums than less addicted gamers ... ;-)

My vote:

Freedom for hardcore gamers! Let them do/modify with BIS games whatever they like ... like inserting a 30-day-respawn-period "because it is more real".

But default settings should be "friendly" i.e. showing the beauty of the landscape, houses and vehicles .... that is: 3rd view on!

BIS, you did it all exactly well, you offer the freedom of choice and the more realistic and comfortable default settings.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Herbal Influence

[Atkins 10]

There is no way a game can create a totally realistic experience (at least without some 3d helmet or whatnot). So there has to be compromises when implementing stuff.

Both 1st and 3rd person view simulate the realistic viewpoint from their perspective and have their upsides and downsides. The key question here is that when you compare the bad sides of the both angles, which is more troublesome? And does the upsides outweigh the downsides?

3rd person view might give you the ability to get a better field of view but it also gives you abilities like seeing over obstacles or behind a corner which effectively are cheats. Combining crosshair and 3rd person view gives u the ability to lay down in high grass and shoot without problem ppl that can't even see you. In my opinion the downsides of 3rd person view are far more worse compared to the 1st person view when it comes to mp online gaming.

The 3rd person mode and crosshair should only be enabled in the recruit difficulty. There is no place for them in PvP mp games. However if server owner chooses to enable them, so be it, but mark in the server name so ppl know what they get when they join.

Also in sp mode you should ofc be able to choose how ever you want to play. But in mp the solution is not to enable both "cheats" and let the players decide cos both "cheats" give so much advantage that if you don't enable them, you are effectively few steps behind to those that use them.

[Herbal Influence 10]

There is no way a game can create a totally realistic experience (at least without some 3d helmet or whatnot). So there has to be compromises when implementing stuff.

Both 1st and 3rd person view simulate the realistic viewpoint from their perspective and have their upsides and downsides. The key question here is that when you compare the bad sides of the both angles, which is more troublesome? And does the upsides outweigh the downsides?

3rd person view might give you the ability to get a better field of view but it also gives you abilities like seeing over obstacles or behind a corner which effectively are cheats. Combining crosshair and 3rd person view gives u the ability to lay down in high grass and shoot without problem ppl that can't even see you. In my opinion the downsides of 3rd person view are far more worse compared to the 1st person view when it comes to mp online gaming.

Ok. Exactly here we differ: I consider the lack of environmental awareness an extreme and unrealistic and DEADLY disadvantage. No real soldier would ever go into a combat with blinds - see video above. None. Because it's deadly.

The 3rd person mode and crosshair should only be enabled in the recruit difficulty. There is no place for them in PvP mp games. However if server owner chooses to enable them, so be it, but mark in the server name so ppl know what they get when they join.

I would consider it more important to mark a server that shifts away from the standard settings. So if it is set on "expert"-mode cogamers should be warned, especially not to frustrate newgamers which we all want to get fascinated by BIS games?

(Whereas I assume that expert-mode is nowadays without 3rd view? I only play veteran, sorry.)

Also in sp mode you should ofc be able to choose how ever you want to play. But in mp the solution is not to enable both "cheats" and let the players decide cos both "cheats" give so much advantage that if you don't enable them, you are effectively few steps behind to those that use them.

The latter I don't understand: I constantly change between the views during a game. If it's possible for all, it's not at all a cheat, it's a feature.

+1 for "no crosshair"

+1 for same effects for all in a mp-game

+1 for the obligation to mark "tunnelview" if you open a server with that :)

[PuFu 4600]

What would be needed:

1. Server browser to specify:

a) the difficulty settings used

b) the individual settings such as Crosshairs and 3d View

2. Ability to change the default difficulty used by the server (without the need to change it at the start of every mission)

3. Disallow 3rd person and crosshair in existing mercenary/expert difficulty level

4. Add additional server browser difficulty filter

Sure you can compensate using tunnelview (that is No-3rd-view): Steadily nervously letting your head circle around. But that does not only use two more keys to press <alt> <mouse>, but does secondly look alike unnatural.

Some of us use TrackIr for that. Fewer use 3 monitor setups to enlarge the FOV, allowing peripheral vision in 1st person mode. There are way besides 3rd person view to limit the tunnel view as you call it.

I am not for removing the 3rd person view, far from it. I use myself when i create missions, or wanna test an addon etc.

That said, while i understand that certain things needs to be easier for newcomers to grasp this game, i want certain things for my server as an admin, as well as a player. The list is above, including links towards CIT tickets (thanks to kju)

Edited September 13, 2011 by PuFu

[jw custom 56]

That said, while i understand that certain things needs to be easier for newcomers to grasp this game, i want certain things for my server as an admin, as well as a player.

Well some people have been around for a long time and they prefere 3r person view, you don't have to be a 'nub' to play with 3rd person view.

As it is now server admins can disable/enable what they want.

[Atkins 10]

The latter I don't understand: I constantly change between the views during a game. If it's possible for all, it's not at all a cheat, it's a feature.:)

Usually those that want to play the game with more immersion (alas not having a magic camera up in the sky on top of your avatar) are told that well you can always turn the 3rd person off. That can't be done if you are playing PvP game and want to be in the same starting line as others. 3rd person might increase ur FOV but it also gives u superhuman abilities that are basically cheats. Ofc it is a matter of an opinion how to account which cons weigh more. I certainly do not agree with you on this matter. Slightly limited view (then IRL) vs cheats is basically the options here.

I think you underestimate the vision that 1st person mode has. It is not that bad, and imo (and for others) the small reduction in view of field is better then magical abilities to see where you could in no way see in real life either. Same goes for the magical icon in the screen telling u where u are aiming exactly.

But by all means let ppl use the 3rd per. in editor, sp and even coop (I doubt bots care) and ofc in mp where server owners so choose to, just let it not be the default setting.

[PuFu 4600]

Well some people have been around for a long time and they prefere 3r person view, you don't have to be a 'nub' to play with 3rd person view.

well, that couldn't have been farther from the point i was trying to make (that everyone using 3rd is a 'nub').

That said, more information about the difficulty options right in the server browser, or allowing to set a default difficulty setting for a server will not change to worse the MP community, on the contrary.

I am all for options and transparency in the end, and i am against removing 3rd altogether like some have suggested in this very thread.

[-=seany=- 5]

But by all means let ppl use the 3rd per. in editor, sp and even coop (I doubt bots care) and ofc in mp where server owners so choose to, just let it not be the default setting.

How many times does it have to be said that the server owner should know what difficulty they want there server to use? Do you think they run PVP and online servers with 3rd and crosshairs by accident? Changing the default setting wont change how people play the game.... (This is also the reason why some idiots think it would be a good idea to remove 3rd from the game, to force people to play how they want...I mean really...)

If servers have 3rd enabled....its because (OMG shock!) They WANT IT ON!

:rolleyes:

Just leave it alone FFS. Changing the default difficulty will not make people play the game the way you want it to be played..I mean come on... just think about it...

Why don't all you who have such a boner for ultra realism just start your own server with the rules you want?

Ps this isn't an attack on you, it's to all who share the same opinion in this thread.

Pps. the Default setting (as with any computer program) should be what most people use. Most people use third and cross-hairs..so nothing needs changing.

Edited September 13, 2011 by -=seany=-