Caring about the Player

[kylania 568]

Radial menus suck because they take your weapon off target for something simply pressing two-three keys can do for you. However you need to remember numbers which seems to be people's main problem with the system - they can't seem remember 10 numbers and want pretty pictures to click on instead.

[twisted 128]

This is why an improved ingame user interface is sorely needed. The contextual Action menu is unreliable and twitchy, and as you say the number menu system is almost entirely trial & error. It's good, when you play all the time you can rmember number sequences and that's fine, but don't play for a couple of weeks and you're back to hunt & peck.

The ingame user interface ought to be a fluid intuitive system that allows for rapid use, I often don't use the commands simply because I'm in a big hurry and I know that it will be several seconds of scrabbling about being immobile and inobservant, when the reality is I should have just shouted the command. Some ingame UI needs to be developed that allows for rapid navigation. Whether that's done by rose, menu drop-downs, command pad or whatever.

this makes so much sense. but that'd be a huge paradigm shift for BIS and while it is very necessary they'd have to take a risk, and anything they chose would spark so much craziness on these forums.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Who says you need to click on it? There could be a cursor movable with your movement / other keys (up/down/left/right).

And yes, moving while giving commands would be hindered, but this is same with the numbers now if you ask me. Before i give commands in ArmA its always good to get into cover or lay down anyway.

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

Many views expressed in this thread are about the complexity of the user interface and how to make it more user friendly. I think, a built-in, ready-to-use voice acvtivation system would be a good way to achieve this. By the way, it may also be good in terms of marketing: "No need to memorize a multitude of key stroke combinations to control this game - just tell your squad what to do!"

[paragraphic l 2]

If you think it can be done differently and better, show us your GUI designs.

I love how me saying that I believe it could be done better, translates in that I can do it better. But don't worry about me having said that I've lots of GUI wireframes made for ArmA in the past, none has proved to fully show the potential of the engine so far and it's just graphics nothing coded or whatever.

That is why I said an GUI-Expert, thanks though that you thought of me in that reference. :)

[maddogx 13]

)rStrangelove;1984597']Who says you need to click on it? There could be a cursor movable with your movement / other keys (up/down/left/right).

This.

I think the current context-sensitive menu thing (spacebar by default) could be enhanced with a rose' date=' or perhaps some other way. It doesn't necessarily have to cover [i']all[/i] the options provided by the number system, but I think with 4 options per rose (up/down/left/right) and 2-3 levels of depth depending on the option, we could already cover the most important stuff.

Using two different menus may be the best option. Put the main one on the spacebar - this would have the move, attack, get-in and watch/defend options on it, with the default option being dependent on whatever you're looking at (context sensitive).

Then have a second one on some other button, with non context-sensitive stuff like formation, stance (stand/crouched/prone/copy), behaviour (safe/alert/danger/stealth ?), status (ready/injured/under fire/whatever).

Or something like that.

[dmarkwick 261]

This.

I think the current context-sensitive menu thing (spacebar by default) could be enhanced with a rose, or perhaps some other way. It doesn't necessarily have to cover all the options provided by the number system, but I think with 4 options per rose (up/down/left/right) and 2-3 levels of depth depending on the option, we could already cover the most important stuff.

Using two different menus may be the best option. Put the main one on the spacebar - this would have the move, attack, get-in and watch/defend options on it, with the default option being dependent on whatever you're looking at (context sensitive).

Then have a second one on some other button, with non context-sensitive stuff like formation, stance (stand/crouched/prone/copy), behaviour (safe/alert/danger/stealth ?), status (ready/injured/under fire/whatever).

Or something like that.

My favoured option right now (without having mocked it up to actually see) is a 12 segment radial. The usual number of commands/subcommands is usually 10 or less right? And if you include maybe some method of quick-selection for most used commands, plus a backtrack option, then 12 might be a good number to go with. Plus, it's a clock, and everyone already knows clocks. It automatically is set up for directional commands to then instantly display a directional clock. Or it can simply drop down to 8 segments for a compass radial.

When I say radial, it doesn't need to be actually circular, I've seen, somewhere, a nicely designed radial that is shaped into a more square shape.

But anyway, it solves your two-button problem if the 12 o'clock is set as a list of contextual/quick commands.

Edited July 19, 2011 by DMarkwick

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Using two different menus may be the best option.

Yeah, i think so too.

IMO in ArmA you only have 2 basic situations when commands come into play:

1. Emergency reaction

- you didnt see it coming

- you have very limited time to give commands otherwise you die / have heavy casualities

2. Getting ready for a planned situation

- you know what the plan is

- you have all the time in the world micromanaging stuff

These are the 2 different GUIs we'd need i guess. In both menus you only find what you need / what makes sense for the situation.

So for 1.:

1.1. - Go silent

- Hold fire (default), Defend, Fire at will, ....

- Stay low (default), Take cover, Scan horizon, ....

- Silent mode (default),

1.2. - Go loud

- Fire at will (default), Defend, ...

- Danger (default), Take cover, Alert ...

- Formation: Line (default), Staggered column, column, ...

For 2.: (all of the stuff we have now)

What is special about my example is that by using the menu cursor / clicking on the GUI you can choose whether you give single commands or a whole set of commands at once.

So in case you just choose GO LOUD, all the default commands set up underneath would come into play: your squad would open up fire, hit the ground / run around the squad center to get into line formation all at once.

No need to micromanaging stuff when you find yourself suddenly inside the killzone of a bunker.

In case you have more time you move your cursor deeper into the menu, that way you can just issue GO LOUD / TAKE COVER command and nothing else.

That would be a good thing i think. The defaults can be setup by you at the beginning of the mission ingame or (better) in a special tab on the briefing screen.

[dmarkwick 261]

this makes so much sense. but that'd be a huge paradigm shift for BIS and while it is very necessary they'd have to take a risk, and anything they chose would spark so much craziness on these forums.

It needn't be any kind of shift, exactly the same system can be utilised, but presented in a new way. If the GUI were opened up more, the community would do it I'm sure.

[KEVINMGXP 20]

What Arma needs to do is first make players toss all preconceived notions overboard, and then teach them how to be good at the game. One shot one kill, enemies remember where you went, silencers don´t mean you´re noiseless, tanks should be killed from behind, you´re not superman but your team is, etc.

A basic in warrior philosophy. I dunno! Teach them the rifleman´s creed, the army values or something. Any way to pump them up for playing the game RIGHT, instead of trying to play it like CoD and failing.

This + whatever number you want to put here, this is what I strongly agree with and thats where this thread needs to be focussed on not UI or what ever game play change. Make it more pure game play feutered tutorials for example.

The game will ask you after installation if this is your first ArmAverse experiance ( ofcourse some dumb asses will press yes while it is not the truth ) but dispite of that if the player is smart and it is their first time they will press "yes it is my first time" a highlight will pop up that it will be recomended to play the tutorial feutered campaign first to introduce them in the complex word of the ArmAverse and will be needed. Do you want to participate this course or not? or "No i already purshased previous titles i dont need training" "No i already prushased previous titles but i still want to do the training course" the last will bring you directly to the tutorial course. If you pressed no i don't need the training the campaign screen will unlock automaticly.

then when they press yes the game will load the tutorial screen this will be in fact an entire training course and because the new player pressed yes he needs to get a score before the main campaign will unlock when the score is right enough the new player will be able to play the main campaign. Bis is also able to make the course so you will have 3 or 4 grades (Fail grade) needs to do the course again, Basic grade will unlock the campaign. Veteran Grade will unlock the campaign but also a little bonus campaign so even make hardcore fans do the course by this "i know i know go bite in the dust" :p and then you also have the expert grade when expert grade is unlocked your pc will explode hehehe lol so you don't want to reach that lvl ;-)

or something in that line.

kind regards

Edited July 19, 2011 by KBourne

[4 IN 1 0]

FFS why every time people want to discuss about how to improve user interface it usually end up into a dead lock because:

1. People still live in stone age and do not know the world have advanced?

2. People being too "advance" that they simply thinks that all things must change even if that is a really bad idea?

3. People so full of themself that they refuse to accept other concept, even if they are good?

[hellfire257 3]

The radial in L4D2 works well enough for me, so maybe something similar would be good. Even if it's only supporting a few actions, it still would be handy.

[instagoat 133]

I thought this thread was about finding a way to get players an easier entry into the game.

While I think that the menu system needs an overhaul as well, I´d like to focus on basic matters of tutorials, overall game design and mission design in particular.

The menus are a vast area where improvements could be made, maybe a whole thread for that is warranted?

[KEVINMGXP 20]

I thought this thread was about finding a way to get players an easier entry into the game.

While I think that the menu system needs an overhaul as well, I´d like to focus on basic matters of tutorials, overall game design and mission design in particular.

The menus are a vast area where improvements could be made, maybe a whole thread for that is warranted?

I tried to bring it back on topic but i guess thats just me :D maybe better to change to topic title to what about new UI lol

[dmarkwick 261]

I thought this thread was about finding a way to get players an easier entry into the game.

While I think that the menu system needs an overhaul as well, I´d like to focus on basic matters of tutorials, overall game design and mission design in particular.

The menus are a vast area where improvements could be made, maybe a whole thread for that is warranted?

I did start a UI thread so maybe I should resurrect it :)

[pathetic_berserker 4]

)rStrangelove;1984672']Yeah' date=' i think so too.

IMO in ArmA you only have 2 basic situations when commands come into play:

[b']1. Emergency reaction[/b]

- you didnt see it coming

- you have very limited time to give commands otherwise you die / have heavy casualities

2. Getting ready for a planned situation

- you know what the plan is

- you have all the time in the world micromanaging stuff

These are the 2 different GUIs we'd need i guess. In both menus you only find what you need / what makes sense for the situation.......

.

When I first read this post I thought yep, good summary of what is required and chimes in nicely with what Dmarkwick is saying. Then I think my old school angel spoke up and I thought whoa hang on a minute.

If people are shown how to use the number system properly they will remember the most import key commands when in the heat of battle and leave the rest to use when time to micro manage permits. The system works fine, but ever since the shouting started and the number system was relegated to the rear for us old timers who still remember, the situation has only gotten worse. The so called 'intuitive' hud overlay is visualy distracting, (Though good for my kids, 6yrs and 3.5 yrs). And the spacebar, though of some use, is almost redundant if you do well enough with the numbers.

Now I have nothing against secondary command methods and think it would be great if BIS opened up the area for the community to evolve. And I know this is yet another UI post. But I thought it was a good point point to reiterate how the UI thing has been overblown and how the lack of depth in the tutorial and campaign missions has probably cost BIS more fans than some simplistic notion that a pretty UI will keep people enthralled.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

ofcourse some dumb asses will press yes while it is not the truth )

What's dumb about that? I never killed anyone with my first grenade. It's happened since (but not for not knowing how it works), but hey... :p Also, I do the tutorials to spot problems to report. The new guy may not notice a problematic tutorial, and instead blame himself.

[almanzo 144]

I would say that they actually accomplished that with Cold War Crisis. You started off as a grunt, and as the story progressed, the challanges did as well. You were intruduced to new gameplay elements all the time in OFP. First different weapons, (and being a part of a 8-10 man troop was awsome!), then different ground vehicles like trucks and jeeps, then leading, then tanks, then tank platoon leading, then helis, then airplanes. Then soloing.

I do like a challange. My main issue is that sometimes the challanges are a bit off scale. Four guys should never really have to fend of an entire squad, as they had to do in PMC for instance. Make the engagements realistic, give options on how to engage (flee, retreat, flank etc) and make it exiting.

[ghostnineone 10]

^or like every mission in the harvest red campaign...if four guys have to fight an entire squad then they are fucked most of the time, even if you are in delta and devgru and shoot better than everyone of the enemy soldiers you 4 vs 15 is still very bad odds if you dont have some kind of plan to break contact and fight the enemy in smaller groups or get into a tactically superior position, like a bottleneck or making the enemy come to you

[KEVINMGXP 20]

What's dumb about that?

I did not meant to be disrispectfull towards anyone however it would be dumb if the player hits yes because he thinks he is auwsum sause :p thats where i refering to, the tutorial basicly needs to press out how hard it is and that tactics and planning will be needed to get trough. A detailed layout tutorial that will explain what everything does.

For example: that animation addon how is it called (shame on me for forgetting) but it has a tutorial how to use the animations, made by a community member and hey he made a well thought out tutorial for it. Step by Step.

I mean we are in fact playing a mil sim so why not make a boot camp kind of thing and interact with the player before he goes in combat, where you need to pas before you get in to the real thing. ArmA3 will be set in 2025 you are part of a special forces group that will be set in to combat behind enemy lines why not introduce our main character in some sort of a boot camp kinda enviorment before the real campaign starts.

It is in my eyes no los and it could even be fun you know. If don right ofcourse :p

I never killed anyone with my first grenade. It's happened since (but not for not knowing how it works), but hey... :p

I neather my first granade trow in OFP was the worst i ever saw :D to make it more hillarious if i remember correct whole my squad blowed up with me, my initial id was ok to trow from cover we where behind a truck, under supressed fire a bullet magnet sort to say. I tried to trow the granade over the top but it bumbed back. I was like huh ooohw shit darn, "boom" it was a ammo truck btw where are those days ha ;-) hehehe luckely it is just a game. Anyway I am more a guy that likes to learn trough error but i know for sure there are people that likes to have it explained a little better before they get in to the whole thing. Lets be honnest our ArmAverse can be pretty scary if you dive in without proper instructions, not everyone likes to dive in something so complicated without knowing how.That does not mean if whole the thing is explained well that they would not be able to enjoy it afterwards.

Also, I do the tutorials to spot problems to report. The new guy may not notice a problematic tutorial, and instead blame himself.

Not sure if i get this correct but thats why i say if don well, if bis puts one or two guys on the tutorial stuff and think it trough i know they can make it a solid ride for those that needs it.

Tutorials can exist out of a course of several parts, to be honnest i had some second thoughts at locking the campaign up before you do the course to make sure that everyone gets what they need maybe this is a better approach.

Every part should exsist out of a basic training and an advanced course eg Vihicle use Course, Infantry course, Sniper course, Special forces course, Frogmen course, Air force course, Armored course and an Advanced tactical course that will learn you commanding and use of tactics in ArmA3 last advanced course should be a mission where you need to use those commands and tactics on the field and pass it, if you finally pass the last course a smooth cut scene to the main campaign will pop where you will be called of traing strait in to combat like in OFP by this it will feel like an extention of or an extra addition towards the main campaign, however maybe it would be wise to keep the tutorial campaign seperated so if the player whishes he or she can start the main campaign anyway this makes it so that everyones needs will be answered.

the basic training explains step by step how it works the advanced course will be the testing phase of what you have being learning in the basic course. The advanced training needs to be passed to get to the next basic course. Like already said when you unlocked them all with for example a minimum of 85% you will unlock not only a little bonus campaign eg Eagel wing style but also maybe some extra features eg some weapons or whatever that can be implemented as extra, something in the line that will make it a worth while to do this course even if you are a veteran. However you can pass at a lower grade also like lets say 75% but you will not unlock those extra features you will be able to redo those parts that have lower grades and still get the grade to get those extras. Your grades will be remembered its just somthing that needs some thinking to implement this, bis will have many possibilities here.

Bis supriced us in the past in many ways they can do this without a doubt, it does not take away other features it adds more possibilities for those who need it in my eyes and even to make it an important part of the game in advance of the main campaign, this training will build up from easy to hard so it will add something extra to atcheave i mean give it a feeling like hehe i got trough this i earned to play the main and even the smaller campaign if you did above average. So it is a win win and again a win for ArmA3.

Kind regards

Edited July 20, 2011 by KBourne

[Wolfrug 0]

Right, so, all we need then is a design document, team, and talent for...

The Arma Community-Made Beginner's Campaign, or, the Arma Community ABC!

It would work on three levels:

1) It would teach new players from the ground up how to access and implement basic infantry, advanced infantry, basic squad leading and advanced squad leading skills, as well as missions involving lone wolf stealth, recon and sabotage. Then it would move on to ground vehicles (with a focus on MBTs, but with a smattering of IFVs and trucks/other cars), first as a basic tanker and then as a tank platoon commander. Finally, the same would be done for air, covering air transport and close air support in helicopters, and then perhaps a few missions (at most) as a fighter pilot (since this is not a very big part of the Arma experience). It might also at some point showcase some of BIS' own modules, for instance the UAV module, the Ambient Combat module, and the High Command module.

2) WHILE teaching the player all of the above, the campaign would also introduce the player to the Armaverse, beginning with Armstrong, Gastovksi and the Cold War Crisis, moving on to Sahrani and the RACS & SLA, and finally covering Chernarus and Takistan + BAF/PMC. This could be done in notes, through recurring characters (like Armstrong), and general background information to the missions, making sure that the new player is fully aware of all they need to be aware of with regards to the Armaverse that BIS has built. If this is not strictly possible, then the missions should at least take place in the Armaverse and reflect on and work in parallell to the official missions.

3) Follow the tenets of good mission design, meaning each mission could be opened up in the editor and learnt from. Each script would contain ample comments, a unified system for description.exts, stringtable.csvs, sound and music folders etc. would be used, every mission would contain a readme with credits and instructions for how each part in it was achieved and so on. In that sense, the campaign would also serve as an introduction to the mission editor (and an accompanying beginner's guide to mission editing could be released with the campaign), as each mission would provide a more and more complicated template from which to build on.

It would use Combined Operations, with BAF/PMC as optionals, and span perhaps 40 missions (although many of them would be fairly short, especially the initial introductory ones). Optimal would be if it could be fully voice acted, and super-optimal would be if it could also be played in co-op with 2-4 players (but this might be a bit too much to ask). The idea would be that each new player could be given this campaign, which would lead the player carefully through the complexity of the Arma engine (and history), and spit out veteran players on the other side eager for more challenge and fun.

...yeah, so...um. That's not a tall order at all, is it? :D

Regards,

Wolfrug

[KEVINMGXP 20]

...yeah, so...um. That's not a tall order at all, is it? :D

Regards,

Wolfrug

You are taking away my fun :rolleyes: :eek: hehehe :D

[maddogx 13]

I really like the idea of a community made beginners introduction campaign.

I imagine the very first "mission" (showing basic movement) could be tied into one of the characters back-stories, where he is recovering from an injury and going through some kind of health evaluation before he gets back on the job. For obvious reasons this mission should be skippable (since not everyone needs to be shown how to move around), but I think it would be a nice way to tie such a basic intro into the story. :)

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Nice idea. In BadCompany1 you get hit by friendly artillery and by checking all your movement keys & weapons you kinda recover from the blast which was also very well done. And hilarious too. ("Oh look, the new guy is dead."- "Waht, - already?")

:D

[ghostnineone 10]

I really like the idea of a community made beginners introduction campaign.

I imagine the very first "mission" (showing basic movement) could be tied into one of the characters back-stories, where he is recovering from an injury and going through some kind of health evaluation before he gets back on the job. For obvious reasons this mission should be skippable (since not everyone needs to be shown how to move around), but I think it would be a nice way to tie such a basic intro into the story. :)

arma already does that though with boot camp, and the beginning of harvest red is a training ground that teaches basic movement, shooting (stationary, pop up targets, and skeet)