Caring about the Player

[dmarkwick 261]

how do you introduce a more intuitive UI without dumbing it down?

Indeed, and is the secret of good design :)

My best notion is that as long as at least all the current commands remain, and are accessible, then any GUI will not be dumbed down. It's using the commands that's the thing, not the interface. As such, any interface that allows people to access the commads easier, must be better.

I'm not suggesting removing the number system, only augmenting it.

I guess if the interface system were opened up more to modding, then we might see interface mods appearing, and then we'd see a sort of natural selection process as the best and most intuitive interfaces are adopted.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

I guess if the interface system were opened up more to modding, then we might see interface mods appearing, and then we'd see a sort of natural selection process as the best and most intuitive interfaces are adopted.

Agreed, that would be pretty cool. Certainly more constructive than quassi arguments about what 'could' be best

[metalcraze 290]

I'm afraid you can't just put 100 of commands into the radial interface without completely dumbing it down.

Not mentioning that to access radial menus you will have to stop as you will have to select the through directional keys which makes a system we currently have infinitely better.

I mean it isn't like BIS didn't think about the interface in a decade. The interface just offers you too much to be simple.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

The interface just offers you too much to be simple.

Nothing is impossible, but the more stuff you need to cramp into a gui the more difficult it gets. Its impossible to get all the number menus into 1 big gui without getting lost/confuse ppl, thats for sure.

Maybe its time to combine several commands together which will be used in the same situation anyways (Danger mode, Fire at will, Take Cover, Line formation, etc etc) and just throw things overboard that the AI has no real reaction to anyway (Stay low, Sneak, Scan horizon etc).

Some of the commands we have now surely dont tell anything about how the AI will react, esp for new ArmA players. Tell them to sneak and they still run around, tell them to fall in and they still take their time to get to you. If a command doesnt work exactly as it says in the book and/or if a command is just a shallow copy of another command then get it out of the game, period.

What i personally would love would be a game as accessible as HalfLife was (controlwise) and as realistic (or more) as ArmA is. Fighting in the game is done well, but that doesnt mean i have to fight with the interface / movement animations too.

[dmarkwick 261]

I'm afraid you can't just put 100 of commands into the radial interface without completely dumbing it down.

You're not appreciating the principle of good design. Moreover, you're not appreciating the most obvious implementation of the radial interface, that each chosen sector opens up it's own sub-radial. Of course all the commands are not going to fit around one single radial, if that's what you meant. Think of radial GUIs as like menu/submenu dropdowns.

Not mentioning that to access radial menus you will have to stop as you will have to select the through directional keys which makes a system we currently have infinitely better.

Again I don't think you've really considered this. There is no more need to stop with a new GUI than there is right now. Using the mouse/whatever to select a command option does not mean you have to stop moving. Pragmatically of course, in most cases you do in any case.

I mean it isn't like BIS didn't think about the interface in a decade. The interface just offers you too much to be simple.

I would like to challenge a good designer to disprove that :)

[metalcraze 290]

Maybe its time to combine several commands together which will be used in the same situation anyways (Danger mode, Fire at will, Take Cover, Line formation, etc etc) and just throw things overboard that the AI has no real reaction to anyway (Stay low, Sneak, Scan horizon etc).

And call the game Dragon Rising while we are at it.

I mean in danger mode you totally have your subordinates run around (Fire at will) and hide (take cover) at the same time and also use line formation which you will totally want to use in combat all the time, especially when an enemy may attack you from anywhere in many cases.

Why would you want AI to use whatever stance they deem neccessary, keep a 360 overview, especially for gunners and commanders in vehicles or avoid combat - cut this stupid shit out of the game.

You're not appreciating the principle of good design. Moreover, you're not appreciating the most obvious implementation of the radial interface, that each chosen sector opens up it's own sub-radial. Of course all the commands are not going to fit around one single radial, if that's what you meant. Think of radial GUIs as like menu/submenu dropdowns.

You mean 10 radials that spread into 10 radials the spread into 10 radials and so on?

Wow that will be very comfortable - especially during combat when I don't want HUGE LETTERS covering my screen because right now I can shoot, move and give orders to AI - all at the same time.

Using the mouse/whatever to select a command option does not mean you have to stop moving. Pragmatically of course, in most cases you do in any case.

So if my mouse will be busy digging through 10s and 10s of radial menus to get to what I want - how will I turn? And how will I shoot?

Bottomline:

Some of the commands we have now surely dont tell anything about how the AI will react, esp for new ArmA players

Stop treating new ArmA players as retards please. It isn't like they will get their cat or dog killed if they will try to use the command and see how AI reacts.

Edited July 18, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

You mean 10 radials that spread into 10 radials the spread into 10 radials and so on?

Wow that will be very comfortable - especially during combat when I don't want HUGE LETTERS covering my screen because right now I can shoot, move and give orders to AI - all at the same time.

You can? I'm sceptical :)

So if my mouse will be busy digging through 10s and 10s of radial menus to get to what I want - how will I turn?

How do you already turn? If you move with one hand, turn with the other hand, what are you using to command the AI at the same time? I think it's a little disingenuous to assume that the exact same limitations that limit all other activities right now, somehow will be worse with a new well-designed GUI.

And, as I believe I've stated a few times already, I don't advocate the removal of the current number based command system. Only an augmentation of it. I believe a different optional system would help to bring in new players, and keep them interested.

[metalcraze 290]

well you see - while my AI command menus are open I still can turn around with ease without closing the menu or selecting commands. So I can run with one finger, assigning targets/flanking/combat behavious/get in commands (as they are 1-2-3-4 menus) for AI with another finger on the same hand, all while turning with the mouse and also selecting a position for AI with a mouse cursor. And can even hold ALT with a yet another finger assigning positions for AI f.e. to the W while moving N

That's an example.

ArmA interface is OK. You just have to learn to use it.

The more effort the game requires the more it offers - it's a golden rule that works for any game out there.

Edited July 18, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

well you see - while my AI command menus are open I still can turn around with ease without closing the menu or selecting commands. So I can run with one finger, assigning targets/flanking/combat behavious/get in commands (as they are 1-2-3-4 menus) for AI with another finger on the same hand, all while turning with the mouse and also selecting a position for AI with a mouse cursor.

That's an example.

Well OK, but what about the non-piano players here? ;) I joke. But I also doubt your playing style is common, most of us stop doing one thing to effectively do another. That's not about playing badly, that's just the way most people are wired.

Also, a lot of the commands I use are up in the 6s and 7s 8s etc. This necessitates me looking down at the keyboard to hunt for that key.

ArmA interface is OK. You just have to learn to use it.

The more effort the game requires the more it offers - it's a golden rule that works for any game out there.

Indeed. But did I mention that I would advocate the keeping of the number system? The main thrust of the topic is the retention & encouragement of new players to the game. I remember when I first started OFP how incomprehensible it was. Now of course it seems second nature, but you must try to remember how it was in those first days.

Edited July 18, 2011 by DMarkwick

[NoRailgunner 0]

Guess most old farts and young kids would like those fancy/funky consolish radial menus in milsims too. For them the menu has to open right in their "face" so they can clicky on icons...

Maybe some people just have difficulties to memorize something eg "which keys and where are they"? Or they have just some issues to use keyboard keys + mouse all together? Maybe the game should just run like a movie/on rails with less to no interaction... :p;)

Just wonder what people would say if BIS could implement an working voice command system? BIS: "...one more option to control ARMA3 - are we good or we are god?" :icon_twisted:

[dmarkwick 261]

Guess most old farts and young kids would like those fancy/funky consolish radial menus in milsims too. For them the menu has to open right in their "face" so they can clicky on icons...

Maybe some people just have difficulties to memorize something eg "which keys and where are they"? Or they have just some issues to use keyboard keys + mouse all together? Maybe the game should just run like a movie/on rails with less to no interaction... :p;)

Just wonder what people would say if BIS could implement an working voice command system? BIS: "...one more option to control ARMA3 - are we good or we are god?" :icon_twisted:

Flexibility in the GUI is all we ask for :)

[metalcraze 290]

Well OK, but what about the non-piano players here? ;) I joke. But I also doubt your playing style is common, most of us stop doing one thing to effectively do another. That's not about playing badly, that's just the way most people are wired.

People are also not wired to be forced to use commands or menus they don't like/want to use.

Doesn't mean they needed to be simplified or cut out if someone finds them uncomfortable.

Besides in MP nobody even uses AI menus unless commanding AI squads which is very rare. And yeah if you want to command AI squads you need to learn how to do that regardless of the interface. ArmA offers you much much more than just "follow me / stay here" and it comes at a price of learning.

Indeed. But did I mention that I would advocate the keeping of the number system?

As long as old interface stays in place, any new interface is optional and isn't forced by servers, doesn't require to cut out commands a player doesn't (want to) use or putting unrelated commands into one like in that example above - I can be OK with it.

Besides you can use voice commands to control AI. Much faster than any menu. I don't use them anymore though but when I used Pilfius in XP it was literally about just saying "all go prone" to put your squad down while your hands literally stayed free.

Yes obviously requires additional software.

Edited July 18, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

People are also not wired to be forced to use commands or menus they don't like/want to use.

Arguably that's the state of the current system in any case.

Doesn't mean they needed to be simplified or cut out if someone finds them uncomfortable.

I never once advocated removing or simplifying anything. Only an alternative presentation.

[ghost101 10]

[start rant]

"let's dumb it down, make it easier for lazy people without patience, blah blah blah".

No, let's not! Games for that type of person (unfortunately) dominate the gaming market. Personally, it's the relative and _necessary_ complexity of ArmA that attracts me to it. I enjoy a genuine challenge in my gaming (both in in terms of gameplay AND learning to play it)

Here's an idea: let's make ArmA as complex as it needs to be to fulfil its objective (no more, no less). Its objective being a consumer military-simulator, not a shoot-em-up. k? sound good to you?

Personally, I am hugely grateful to the few companies (such as Bohemia, Paradox Interactive and DigitalmindSoft) that dare to make games in various genres which are DIFFICULT and genuinely challenging to play. If it wasn't for them, I would have given up on gaming a long time ago.

It kind of irritates me that on the forums for each of my favourite games (Men of War, Hearts of Iron, ArmA) you always have people moaning about their complexity and wanting the game dumbed down for the masses.

What is it with the dumb masses? They have the lion's share of everything in this world. Popular culture, education, video games, movies - absolutely everything is geared towards the lowest common denominator. Yet the moment they see anything that a minority may enjoy which is not at their level of retardation, they want it normalized. "It's not fare, it's too complicated... I DEMAND IT BE DUMBED DOWN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!"

Please, let us have our pleasures as you have yours.

[end rant]

Edited July 18, 2011 by ghost101

[dmarkwick 261]

"let's dumb it down, make it easier for lazy people without patience, blah blah blah".

No, let's not! Games for that type of person (unfortunately) dominate the gaming market. Personally, it's the relative and _necessary_ complexity of ArmA that attracts me to it. I enjoy a genuine challenge in my gaming (both in in terms of gameplay AND learning to play it)

Here's an idea: let's make ArmA as complex as it needs to be to fulfil its objective (no more, no less). Its objective being a consumer military-simulator, not a shoot-em-up. k? sound good to you?

Personally, I am hugely grateful to companies like Bohemia, Paradox Interactive and DigitalmindSoft for making games in various genres which are DIFFICULT and genuinely challenging to play.

It kind of irritates me that on the forums for each of my favourite games (Men of War, Hearts of Iron, ArmA) you always have people moaning about their complexity and wanting the game dumbed down for the masses.

What is it with the dumb masses? They have the lion's share of everything in this world. Popular culture, education, video games, movies - absolutely everything is geared towards the lowest common denominator. Yet the moment they see anything that a minority may enjoy which is not at their level of retardation, they want it normalized. "It's not fare, it's too complicated... I DEMAND IT BE DUMBED DOWN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!"

Please, let us have our pleasures as you have yours.

It's almost as though you haven't bothered to read the thread.

[ghost101 10]

You seem to be on the defensive. I only read the OP's initial post, none of yours. My post was a _generalized_ response to that. k?

But I'm assuming now that your posts consisted of requests for dumbing down the ArmA system too. So you can take what you need from my post/rant also.

[KEVINMGXP 20]

"let's dumb it down, make it easier for lazy people without patience, blah blah blah".

No, let's not! Games for that type of person (unfortunately) dominate the gaming market. Personally, it's the relative and _necessary_ complexity of ArmA that attracts me to it. I enjoy a genuine challenge in my gaming (both in in terms of gameplay AND learning to play it)

Here's an idea: let's make ArmA as complex as it needs to be to fulfil its objective (no more, no less). Its objective being a consumer military-simulator, not a shoot-em-up. k? sound good to you?

Personally, I am hugely grateful to the few companies (such as Bohemia, Paradox Interactive and DigitalmindSoft) that dare to make games in various genres which are DIFFICULT and genuinely challenging to play. If it wasn't for them, I would have given up on gaming a long time ago.

It kind of irritates me that on the forums for each of my favourite games (Men of War, Hearts of Iron, ArmA) you always have people moaning about their complexity and wanting the game dumbed down for the masses.

What is it with the dumb masses? They have the lion's share of everything in this world. Popular culture, education, video games, movies - absolutely everything is geared towards the lowest common denominator. Yet the moment they see anything that a minority may enjoy which is not at their level of retardation, they want it normalized. "It's not fare, it's too complicated... I DEMAND IT BE DUMBED DOWN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE!"

Please, let us have our pleasures as you have yours.

Cool down mate :rolleyes: djeeses :D I am ROFLing and my bos is looking, now that said if you would read the post you will see he only askes better tuttorials for people to get in to this kind of gaming so your rant is in fact badly misplaced if you ask me.

That said i actually agree on the point it does not have to be dumbed down you could stated it much more nicer then you did, whether it makes you mad or not act like you want to be treatened by others. Then again i also agree with the op that better and more expanded tuturials would be welcome for the ones that are interested even launch those larger tuturials as a demo version but also available in the initial release its in fact a win win situation for them to enlarge the entire community.

Whether kids are in place for playing this game or not? I will answer on that -> thanks for the good laugh :p

oh btw even a better point is like Wolfrug said read his post i will defenetly say yes to that kind of approuch.

kind regards

Edited July 18, 2011 by KBourne
gramma correction will do at home

[dmarkwick 261]

You seem to be on the defensive. I only read the OP's initial post, none of yours. My post was a _generalized_ response to that. k?

Ah, so it was merely a response based on your misunderstanding of the OP, to which you galloped to the end of the thread because you just couldn't post it quick enough? k.

But I'm assuming now that your posts consisted of requests for dumbing down the ArmA system too. So you can take what you need from my post/rant also.

Don't worry, I took exactly what I need :)

Edited July 18, 2011 by DMarkwick

[Wolfrug 0]

Good and well-argued thread here, OP. Something that bears thinking of.

As someone already mentioned, OFP actually did this pretty well. It kind of eased the player into the role of a soldier, from the first missions that were actually "basic training", to the assault on Everon that was over with almost no input from the player, and from there on getting more and more difficult over time (ending up with the "meant to be failed" Montignac mission(s)). The mission where Armstrong was promoted Lieutenant and got control over his own squad also had a little tutorial for how to order your units in and out of vehicles and whatnot - all "in game". Likewise there were "tutorial" missions in-game for how to drive your tank and fly your helicopter/plane: these also went from easier to harder (you started in an M60, and then upgraded to an M1A1).

I can only surmise the reason BIS hasn't followed this paradigm in their later games is lack of time. ArmA was a quick job, the campaign even more so, and as others have mentioned Arma 2 and OA just sort of thrust the player directly into combat with no warning. A larger set of more linear training missions would have been awesome - but very, very time consuming and probably quite expensive from the POV of voice acting, animations and so forth. Did anyone actually bother to do the "training" on the Khe San in the beginning of Red Harvest for instance? Especially the completely impossible and quite useless skeet shooting? The tutorial missions were good, but they were kind of disjointed and, well...the time between learning X and actually having to do X in the game world can be quite long...

All in favour then of reintroducing some kind of gentler learning curve with more time spent teaching and leading the player by the hand into the crushingly complex world of Arma? Good :)

Regards,

Wolfrug

[ghost101 10]

Cool down mate :rolleyes: djeeses :D I am ROFLing and my bos is looking, now that said if you would read the post you will see he only askes better tuttorials for people to get in to this kind of gaming so your rant is in fact badly misplaced if you ask me.

Well, I was honest. I said it was a rant. :-) I just know what's behind those "innocent" appearing requests for step-by-step tutorials and "making the game more appealing to a wider audience". Sure sounds innocent, to the naive!

But basically it translates to: "it's too complex, let's make it simple". lol

[dmarkwick 261]

But basically it translates to: "it's too complex, let's make it simple". lol

No, quite the opposite. It's more like, let's try to grab some of the players who ordinarily would drop the game straight away. Lets ease them in to the complexity. Let's encourage them to embrace it.

Not everyone will, of course. But a lot will.

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Well, I was honest. I said it was a rant. :-) I just know what's behind those "innocent" appearing requests for step-by-step tutorials and "making the game more appealing to a wider audience". Sure sounds innocent, to the naive!

But basically it translates to: "it's too complex, let's make it simple". lol

Because you say you are honest does not make it ok that you rant and do it with disrespect to the person that wrote the OP? As far as i can see he does not rant anyone eather, thats merely my pov.

No, quite the opposite. It's more like, let's try to grab some of the players who ordinarily would drop the game straight away. Lets ease them in to the complexity. Let's encourage them to embrace it.

Not everyone will, of course. But a lot will.

Likez i said already a win win situation for bis them selves. It is not dumbing down the mil sim gen ghost101. The game play will be kept like it is or at least i hope, maybe they will approuch the more COD kind of player who knows :p (Duuuuuck hehehe) the only thing asked is that they would mind to add more immercive tutturials for those that need more time or even want to recap after a small or even larger brake. It is not because some of us remember exectly how things work and walk the walk from the start that everyone else does. The OPS pov is mainly focussed towards those that don't know the game yet or even have more difficulties to get trough the learing curve by them selves.

Anyway, so far i see no gameplay related changes asked but more an eased learning curve to those that just walked in and not knowing sure if this is their thing or not. Actually i dare to ask why not implement such a strong tutorial based feature? Why not take those guys in that need only a small nudge extra ....

kind regards

Edited July 18, 2011 by KBourne
gramma correction will do at home

[NoRailgunner 0]

Highly doubt

the players who ordinarily would drop the game straight away

will like it much more with easier or simple menu/gui. Its just not their cup of tea and they prefer other games. No need to force those guys to play a game they don't enjoy. ;)

Btw how many sim games (like Arma) do have an working alternate GUI out of the box? Would it be worth the time spend to make+implement flexible GUI from a game producer point of view?

Just hope that the A3 campaign/missions will be great and not kinda cheesy.

[dmarkwick 261]

Highly doubt

will like it much more with easier or simple menu/gui. Its just not their cup of tea and they prefer other games. No need to force those guys to play a game they don't enjoy. ;)

I'd guess that BIS has a different view on this? ;)

Btw how many sim games (like Arma) do have an working alternate GUI out of the box? Would it be worth the time spend to make+implement flexible GUI from a game producer point of view?

ArmA already has many unique qualities. But standing still when something can be improved should not be one of them. The other game companies might make a change to their GUIs, I suggest augmenting it. Same workload, better outcome.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Where I said that BIS should stop current or any developments? Where is the prove that making an extra + optional GUI improves the outcome? Or it just speculation... as always? :p:D