ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[Redjevel 1]

Steam will improve the game, its easier for devs to develop the game there, it have the big (-) that you only buy license not "game" itself but still i dont think big fans of arma wont buy it cause of steam.

[metalcraze 290]

I like how you totally elude the fact the guy you sold your game to is, in the end, a lost client for BIS.

No he isn't. Why he bought it from me and not from BIS in the first place?

You don't even consider the greater scheme of thousands people doing the same. Of course they'ld loose money as there would be a lot less copies around.

No I consider the greater scheme. The great scheme of me being not just some yes-man customer one can milk. I'm just in awe how you and other people want your freedoms to be limited so much just that some big boss can make more money. This is part of the reason why we also have all that DLC milking going on with games. Because if somebody wouldn't give additional $20 to the developer because of some reason he doesn't want to - it will totally be the end of the world!

As for you second point, again fallacious argument. While it's true many products lose value over time, in the case of digital products your own copy's worth, regardless of its "age", will equal digital retailers' offer. You of course will sell it for less, but nonetheless the product remains the same. The comparison with cars cannot work, as your own car's worth will always remain way below the price it is sold brandnew because of how worn out this things get fast.

So basically when I resell the game - I'm an asshole who steals money from the developer. But when I resell the car - I'm a great guy who totally doesn't make poor GMC go bankrupt?

It's not OK only when it comes to games? Why the hypocrisy bro?

Steam will improve the game, its easier for devs to develop the game there

I chuckled

I guess steam will also add majickal optimizations and tesselationz

Edited February 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[NoRailgunner 0]

Fanboy mantra: "Yes, Steam will and can be only good for BIS and Steam is good for us too!! Don't listen to those who think otherwise they are all imbecile and heretic! Repeat: Yes, Steam will and can be only good for BIS and Steam is good for us too!!" :D

[onlyrazor 11]

This whole discussion is fraught with irrational and petty knee jerk reactions from haters and fanboys alike. You disgust me, but I also find this mildly amusing. Carry on.

[Hicks_09 10]

I don't know why there's so many posts blaming dayz while preaching 'they want cod kiddies' etc when uhh, you know, there's stand-alone dayz. Why would the 'cod kiddies' buy arma 3? they want dayz, not arma. they have zero interest in arma.

If this was the case steam works would only be for standalone dayz but it's for both, why would they do that? maybe the original blog has an explanation as to why.

Because steamworks is incredibly easy to implement and it's powerful, yes for the end user it only means stuff like achievements but there's a lot more to it for the developer. And as said in the blog, only having to focus on a single platform or DRM means more time spent working on the actual game and less time spent making sure the game works with every DRM that other retailers online and brick and mortar. There's a lot of legit complaints here but the conspiracy theory stuff is ridiculous and boycotting a game isn't going to solve anything regarding consumer rights. And as I previously posted, if you want a refund on steam, quote your damn countries relevant law!! they will refund you! The other less-legit complaint is that it's redundant. Okay, it's an extra program you have to run, so it is redundant if you don't plan on using it but are you seriously going to turn your back on a developer just because of that? It's not like they're forcing you to carry a ton of bricks up a mountain just to start the game. It's just a program, a convenient program that's usually considered one of the advantages of pc gaming (sales, ease of use, vast library of new and old games etc)

Back when steam was a one trick pony (a platform for valve games) I didn't have any kind words for it either but now it's a marketplace and it's probably the best place to buy games as I can usually get them cheaper and faster than anywhere else. I don't think I'm going to convince many (if anyone) to at least give it a try as there seems to be quite a few in this thread who are utterly convinced that steam is the literal embodiment of evil but I hope at least some can come to their senses regarding this barely even mild-inconvenience

You're mixing up an optional store to purchase from (steam) with a mandatory requirement (steamworks). Lets say they make a change to the subscriber agreement, much like they did with the waiver of class action suits recently. If you don't agree to the new conditions you loose access to what you bought when you agreed to existing licensing terms until you bend over for the new terms - that's because you aren't buying the game and accepting a one off license to use it. You're just renting access to a client to play them through which has license terms that can change as and when. Arguments of "Oh but class actions don't benefit the average consumer" do not matter when you look at the point that Valve are closing avenues of complaint regardless of their nature.

No matter the "ease of use" of a piece of software. If it isn't needed then it ought not be forced. Particularly when it's a glorified rental service. If the games industry has such a problem with second hand sales and rentals then it ought to be disposing with drm clients as well that act as such. Oh wait... it's just when the rental or sale isn't controllable by them.

I've got Uplay, Origin and Steam all installed for various titles that are shackled to each drm client. If I could I'd just run the games off their own executables. I don't need or want a third party drm client. If I buy something then that's all I want. The product that I bought. Not the superfluous crap that's tagged onto it.

[dunedain 48]

No he isn't. Why he bought it from me and not from BIS in the first place?

Because you could beat any offer BIS could realistically make for the same exact product, thus making them loose a sale.

No I consider the greater scheme. The great scheme of me being not just some yes-man customer one can milk. I'm just in awe how you and other people want your freedoms to be limited so much just that some big boss can make more money. This is part of the reason why we also have all that DLC milking going on with games. Because if somebody wouldn't give additional $20 to the developer because of some reason he doesn't want to - it will totally be the end of the world!

Okay. So you're going from BIS doesn't lose anything when one of their potential customers buys from me rather than from them, to hurr durr I'm no sheep milking cow buying DLCs ect... I think we're done here. This is going way beyond stupidity.

So basically when I resell the game - I'm an asshole who steals money from the developer. But when I resell the car - I'm a great guy who totally doesn't make poor GMC go bankrupt? It's not OK only when it comes to games? Why the hypocrisy bro?

When you resell a car you are not selling the exact same product you bought. You still don't grasp the fundamental difference between digital and physical products. I'm not gonna bother repeating the same thing over and over as it is clear to me you're stuck to oversimplified preconceived notions. Let's just agree to disagree...

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[NeMeSiS 11]

Because you could beat any offer BIS could realistically make for the same exact product, thus making them loose a sale.

Which doesnt hold up. The guy selling the game took reselling it into condsideration when he bought it for the full price. If he cant resell it he would wait until its cheaper.

Selling a game twice for 25€ or once for 50€, then someone else buying that game 2nd hand for 25€ doesnt make a whole lot of difference.

[nodunit 397]

Look at it this way: If Steam ends up being a pain in the buns, then come ArmA 4, lesson learned. But, if Steam improves the game, then it's here to stay. This isn't rocket science.

What makes you think there will be an Arma 4?

[-Coulum- 35]

wait till they see everybody play arma 3 including most of their arma 2 buddies, they see cool gameplay videos on youtube, etc. I bet 90% will still cave in, the other 10% probably have such an principal aversion to Steam they won't succumb, no matter what.

If it were another community yes, but unfortunately this community is much more mature than most others. I think very few of the guys that say they are dropping arma 3 will change their mind without a ton more convincing from BIS. And those who do will probably get it years after release when they're bored and they happen to see it on sale for $5 on steam.

I'd say your percentages shoud be flipped around in the other way.

In a way, i am glad to know this community shows to be much more Consumer Rights aware then others, those who refuse Steam do appear much more able to follow their principles than elsewere. It fits the profiling i had done through time. Though this raises a serious problem BI will have to face.

Well said. Good to see someone has foresight.

There's a huge amount of apathy unfortunately within the games purchasing public however. As long as they get the shiny they tend to be happy. Unless as I mentioned before they are pushed too far. Look at Ubisoft for that example.

They've made their decision let's move on. WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT PLAY ARMA 3 in case we dislike Steamworks, Steam and Valve in general.

Thank you

Well I respect you guys for standing up for what you believe and not bending even when it means you must give up something you love. Much respect.

Now I don't want to try and "convert" any one of you or try to make you change your mind - but I am interested in getting a better idea of why you are choosing to give up the game. I understand why you do not want to break you're own principles to buy arma. But what I don't understand is what the purpose of those principles were in the first place.

To sum up, in questions, how is not buying arma 3 going to help you in anyway? How does that show foresight? Why is it such a bad thing to be "happy with the shiny"? If arma was offered on steam, absolutely free, would you still not go for it simply because of steam?

Like I said, I am not trying to say what your doing is wrong or convince you of such, rather I am just trying to see it from deeper within your POV. Thanks for your insight.

This whole discussion is fraught with irrational and petty knee jerk reactions from haters and fanboys alike. You disgust me, but I also find this mildly amusing. Carry on.

Haha, how I envy you're ability to not get caught up in all this shit.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hmmm, if Arma 3 is still having trouble after the huge success (and profits) of dayz I wonder how bad things would have been without DayZ. I don't even think we would be getting a game if not for the mod.

Bingo. People here think they pull a lot of weight in terms of "Customer is always right". Doesn't help that there were only 2500 people playing Vanilla ArmA a few months after release.

Adapt or die, really. DayZ saved ArmA III, but it could have killed it - now we can have both, yet people are still irrationally raging from their entitled high horses.

"What, you play Battlefield AND ArmA III?!? GTFO, kid, GTFO, GTFO."

[kualus 1]

What makes you think there will be an Arma 4?

He said if Steam proves to be bad, not when.

[-Coulum- 35]

People here think they pull a lot of weight in terms of "Customer is always right". Doesn't help that there were only 2500 people playing Vanilla ArmA a few months after release.

Sadly thats the reality of the business. Where did you get those numbers from?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Sadly thats the reality of the business. Where did you get those numbers from?

I was playing on one of those servers. Obviously, can't tell you SP numbers, but even if you multiply that by 5, I don't think they're breaking even on their investments.

[ratoa 10]

Took me more than an hour to read the full thread after I posted last night UGH!!!!

*Sets his pop corn aside* I been lurking this forums for many years and just made an account a 2 years or so ago

Something that I always saw at this forums is how everyone jumped right away on someone that likes COD or BF3 mechanics on ARMA games and how they go on comments like "go and play your COD kiddie game"

Is really funny to read on why Steam get's on every ones nerves to the point that some comment's are getting almost out of hand on both sides of the house and X GUY ain't cool anymore because he doesn't share the same opinion.... so much for a mature community...

To the ones that loves STEAM good for you, to the ones like me that Hate STEAM don't get it, is not too hard really I had skipped every creative assembly game after they did the switch to STEAM and so I did with IL-2 COD...

Some one mentioned loyalty earlier but what loyalty is that? BIS will do whatever it takes to get a profit from this game, dayZ opened the doors for thousand of new players so in the end if people decide to leave it won't matter because there are more people now to fill the vacuum as a modder/player etc, and last time I checked loyalty works both ways. With than been said if for whatever reason I get the urge to play ARMA 3 couple of years from release down the road is going to be at the STEAM bargain bin (they like to call it sales because it looks and sound better) and for less than $15..that's what I do with UBI and EA and will do it with BIS in a heart beat because they aren't delivering the game with the features I like

*Takes his pop corn once again*

*Rant off*

[gammadust 12]

@-Coulum-

Speaking for myself ofc, i don't exacly fit the camp, since even despite my attempt at the principled stance i am _currently_ willing to let it fly given what appears to me what i will receive in turn. My incoherence is only allowed given the positive pratical experience i have with BI and Steam. Its genuinely conflicting, so rather then turning it into a black and white issue, i rather look deeply at the grays in it and inform myself further. And if there is no way around the outstanding issues, i rather give some effort to remedy them in some way.

[zoog 18]

If it were another community yes, but unfortunately this community is much more mature than most others.

That's what I thought as well, until this whole Steam shitstorm started with mostly random assumptions and wild hyperboles all over the place :rolleyes:

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That's what I thought as well, until this whole Steam shitstorm started with mostly random assumptions and wild hyperboles all over the place :rolleyes:

I'll be probably using the Steam forums & the dedicated Community facility to answer the tons of questions that the new wave is going to have, I'd bet that they are more down-to-earth and grateful bunch. In fact, all of communication will be through Steam: Screenshots, videos with comments section, out of game chat with ArmA III players specifically, server lists, friend/online lists, patchnotes, news, mods/missions. Pretty cool.

That thing was novel back in 2004-2005, worked well too.

[-=seany=- 5]

That's what I thought as well, until this whole Steam shitstorm started with mostly random assumptions and wild hyperboles all over the place :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more. Although people making wild and irrational rants based on improvements for our game from BIS is some thing I have seen quite a lot on here over the past few years:

Ragdoll physics = crying and "ruined Arma" threads

Arma 3 future setting = crying and "ruined Arma" threads

DLC for Arma2 = crying and "ruined Arma" threads

DayZ = crying and "ruined Arma" threads

I see a pattern here :D

[W0lle 1050]

Steam will improve the game, its easier for devs to develop the game there, it have the big (-) that you only buy license not "game" itself but still i dont think big fans of arma wont buy it cause of steam.

That was always like that. The only thing you own with a physical copy is the disc, but you don't own the game/software on it. It was licensed to you like it is today.

The only difference is that what you have on a disc (without activation) is that you can still install it as long as you have a drive, a digital copy/license can be deactivated/removed/whatever with ease.

[gammadust 12]

Still in response to -Coulum-

"To sum up, in questions, how is not buying arma 3 going to help you in anyway? How does that show foresight? Why is it such a bad thing to be "happy with the shiny"? If arma was offered on steam, absolutely free, would you still not go for it simply because of steam?"

How, when, what for a consumer uses a product is its full prerrogative, Steam reserves to itself the right to impose limitations on those rights (while it may not enforce it - hence my positive opinion this far). Yet it saddens me that BI, once an upholder of those consumer rights, and one on the other side of the fence for that matter, is moving on to other waters, and this imo, impoverishes the scene and industry. No matter if their hand was forced or not.

So this is not simply a matter of how much one will pay for the final product, the above are rights (and use value) one can not simply put a price tag on.

- Always on DRM (i like to use whatever product whenever i please, for as long as i please and no 3rd party shall interfere with that)

- Modding (both from a technical pov and authorship)

- Community impact on its identity (given so many valued members willing to quit the scene - justifiably so - while impoverishing it in the way and changing its fundamental character)

That's what I thought as well, until this whole Steam shitstorm started with mostly random assumptions and wild hyperboles all over the place :rolleyes:

There are very valid concerns exposed in this thread, if it eases your argument to keep looking only at childish ones...

Edited February 23, 2013 by gammadust

[NoRailgunner 0]

Some people don't like how Steam is doing business and don't want to comply just for the sake of getting/playing a game. Others may just like to be able to play out of the box without any online leash.... and perhaps without those (upcoming) "friend-request-challenges" pop-up's and other hip + cool features/services. But each to his own addiction and dealer.

[W0lle 1050]

There's something I should point out because some people obviously get it wrong:

I never said I will not move on (or adapt) to Arma3. In fact, I already prepared a pretty huge Mod for it. The folder structure is set up, even very basic configs written, I had talks with some of the required people. Even a 'release plan' aka what comes first was done. Then 'full steam ahead' came.

No one can say I'm not willing to adapt. I would have agreed the stupid SciFi setting, at least until 'normal' units were available.

But I will not use Steam, not after the experience I made with it some years ago (I wrote about that 2 days ago). In short: A software which removes complete folders on my computer without asking for confirmation is unacceptable. And I don't care if that was a one time screw-up, nor what gone wrong and where. I don't care how solid Steam works now (or not), alone the possibility that I lose data again will not make me deal seriously with Steam again.

- Community impact on its identity (given so many valued members willing to quit the scene - justifiably so - while impoverishing it in the way and changing its fundamental character)

Don't worry about that, there are millions - read again: millions of new Modders ahead. The few not 'adapting' will not matter. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say these 'valuable members' will leave, many of them just don't migrate to Arma3.

[jblackrupert 14]

The PC gaming industry was literally suffocating before the emergence of the digital market.

It was and still is suffocating from a massive influx of shitty console port crap that people refuse to buy.

It's also effecting PC hardware upgrade sales simply because there's no reason to upgrade and likely the reason behind Nvidia rebranding so many of their cards

because nobody is buying a new card every year.

Nvidia and AND are giving away games now begging people to buy new cards.

[kualus 1]

It was and still is suffocating from a massive influx of shitty console port crap that people refuse to buy.

It's also effecting PC hardware upgrade sales simply because there's no reason to upgrade and likely the reason behind Nvidia rebranding so many of their cards

because nobody is buying a new card every year.

Nvidia and AND are giving away games now begging people to buy new cards.

First point, I've heard a lot about, but don't know enough to say anything about.

Second point, the rate at which PC hardware is being rendered obsolete is slowing down, what's causing it is software not catching up to hardware.

Third point, Nvidia is offering F2P credit, not games.

[5133p39 14]

Its rather tedious now to read the whole thread to find why people hate Steam, or why they dont want it for ArmA3.

Could somebody update the starting post with info such as "why its good" and "why its bad"?

I am curious, why some people hate Steam so much.

I am not much of a gamer when it comes to how many games i bought (especially on Steam, where i "own" just like 10 games or so),

but so far i encountered just one problem with Steam, which was loosing all my Walking Dead saves after some of the game updates.

I think the cause was some glitch in the Cloud Sync, when i started the game on different computer, it "synchronized" the cloud content to a no-save-games state,

and then after i started the game at home, the local saves were removed (synchronized with empty cloud storage :))

- but i am only guessing, maybe the cause was different (as far as i know, it might also be caused by the game itself instead of Steam being the culprit).

From that day, i allways switch OFF the cloud synchronization right after installing a new game, but this was only one incident somehow connected to Steam (and still with possibility of Steam being innocent in that cause).

So i wonder, why do other people consider Steam a bad choice?

I also remember i heard about some problem in a long forgotten past, that when uninstalling Steam, it deleted more than just itself.

Lets say this is true and it happened (i am not saying it didn't, just saying i don't know).

But if you think about it, even such cause actually works in Steam's favor - it makes more sense of using Steam with probably standardized (un)install process (which was buggy one day, but it got fixed), than having different installators for every game (increasing the possibility of something going wrong with each additional game),

because if i remember correctly, simmilar problem happened also with one of the good old Sierra games, when during uninstallation it also deleted some files it wasnt supposed to.

So as you can see, such issue can happen with any product - so, wouldn't it be actually safer using same standardized and prooven process for as much games as possible, than a different one for every game?

(btw. i am not lobbying for Steam, actually i am not a fan of Steam, i just simply don't mind using it.)