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maruk

Steam - opinions and experiences survey

Should BI make Arma 2 and/or future games Steam only?  

368 members have voted

  1. 1. Should BI make Arma 2 and/or future games Steam only?

    • Yes, make Arma 2 and/or future BI games Steam only and Steamworks enabled
      71
    • I am not sure, it depends... (please elaborate in your post)
      47
    • No, please not Steam because... (please elaborate in your post)
      250


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Please, if Maruk meant something else than what we all understood about moving or not moving toward STEAM, i think he would have mentionned it.

If he started this poll then he must have had at least some reason to believe there's a benefit. All I am saying is people around here act like Steam is concentrated evil and use the same excuses for hating it time after time. Surely if BI has considered switching they have some motive behind it, and it'd be nice to know what it is.

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I voted no.

Reasons:

1. I want to have a physical copy (DVD).

2. Even though I like Steam, it makes it more complicated than it has to be.

3. I don't want to get forced in one direction, Steam only would be exactly that in my opinion.

But like others in this thread I also look forward to get to know more about the reasons this poll was opened.

In the end of the day however I think I would go with BI whatever they decide to do. I trust them that they will make decisions that will benefit the company and (subsequently) us, the players.

Edited by Undeceived

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I voted no

I do enjoy having games on steam, however I don't want to be forced into having to use it. As many others have mentioned there are issues with the steam version, and what were to happen if the steam engine crashed making the game unplayable. Unlikely I know but it could happen.

I think they should just give people the option like they're doing at the minute. Seems to work fine to me.

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I voted no, for several reasons.

#1 - I like having my hard copy, I've been gaming for 12 years & I'm stuck in my ways. ;)

#2 - I recently moved to a place with no internet, and no chance of internet any time soon, so if it became Steam only I would be screwed.

#3 - I have atleast one Steam-only game already (Empire: Total War) and have had nothing but trouble with it, especially offline. While I like the game I wouldn't have purchased it if I had known it was steam activation only.

There's probably other reasons, but i've got too big of a headache to think of them.

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That being said, Arma to me is different. I want complete control. It isn't just a game to me and I don't want some other program taking care of it for me.

yes! well said Mosh. :cool:

I already voted No, but I must add this reason also, as I feel the same.

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-Ziggy-;1863175']yes! well said Mosh. :cool:

I already voted No' date=' but I must add this reason also, as I feel the same.[/quote']

These guys sum it up perfectly.

No steam exclusive please, its a pain in the ass to mod for starters and the less mod savvy members of my clan struggle with their steam version of A2 and have to jump through hoops to mod the game.

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Software is a form of IP. You (as a customer) cannot own it in the same sense you can own a physical item. Yes you can own a disc, but the software on it is still rightfully the property of the developers. What you purchase is essentially a liscense to use it. That's my opinion anyway.

Strangely enough that kind of consumer rights butchery is not evident in non-downloaded non-Steam games, i.e. you can sell the copy to someone else. Movies are someone's IP as well, yet you can sell any and all DVDs you might have because they don't require you to bind them to a personal online account for all eternity.

Edited by Celery

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I've heard awful things about Steam ... and having to download the entire install to do patch updates makes absolutely no sense. I've used Sprocket (as well as DVD - I have 2 copies of CO) and would highly recommend it to everyone else.

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Movies are someone's IP as well, yet you can sell any and all DVDs you might have because they don't require you to bind them to a personal online account for all eternity.

And you can watch them when the company eventually goes bankrupt, of if your internet dies.

Edited by NeMeSiS
if/when, damn you!

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I like steam for just about every game I own on it but I do not have ArmA2 on steam because of all the workarounds and gbs of data you have to download in order for a simple few hundred mb patch.

If ArmA2 is more steam friendly with mods, updates, and maybe steamworks, I think I'll be more likely to get it off there. As for now I'll stay with my dvds for pretty much just ArmA.

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Strangely enough that kind of consumer rights butchery is not evident in non-downloaded non-Steam games, i.e. you can sell the copy to someone else. Movies are someone's IP as well, yet you can sell any and all DVDs you might have because they don't require you to bind them to a personal online account for all eternity.

100% agree. Well said. This is one of my main issues with Steam.

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Strangely enough that kind of consumer rights butchery is not evident in non-downloaded non-Steam games, i.e. you can sell the copy to someone else.

There's a bit of controversy there. You can physically sell a disc to anyone, but whether or not it's legal or should be legal is always in question. It really depends on the IP owner's intent and their ability to enforce said intent. Of course, if you can resell it, chances are they don't want you keeping your ability to use it as well.

Movies are someone's IP as well, yet you can sell any and all DVDs you might have because they don't require you to bind them to a personal online account for all eternity.

There are actually some services that do distribute movies that way. Even so, with a DVD the same rules apply; even if you can resell the disc you don't own the IP so you can't for example make copies or add your own modifications to the movie and redistribute it. :p

Anyway the point is, whether or not you can physically hold something in your hands doesn't really make a difference here (legally). If you read the EULA for ArmA 2, even if you have bought a DVD copy, BI essentially has the same rights as Valve, the difference being Valve can probably actually enforce it with Steam.

From the ArmA 2 EULA:

2. Limited Use of License: the Licensor hereby grants, and by installing the Program you thereby accept, a restricted, non-exclusive license and right to install and use one (1) copy of the Program for your personal use. You may not network the Program or otherwise install it or use it on more than one computer at a time, except if expressly authorized otherwise in the applicable documentation. The Program is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program.

5. Termination: This License is effective until terminated.You may terminate the License at any time by destroying the Program and any New Material. The Licensor may, at its discretion, terminate this License in the event that you fail to comply with the terms and conditions contained herein. In such event, you must immediately destroy the Program and any New Material.

The only real difference is that you can legally transfer your liscense by selling the disc. Now, why Valve doesn't let you transfer Steam games (even just to other Steam users and regulated by Valve and/or the devs/publishers) is personally a mystery to me, but honestly it's not like Valve is just going to up and disappear any time soon, or decide to cancel all of your purchases or something.

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I voted no.

I like to have my games on disk.

I dont know what will happen with Steam in the future and I dont want to have my best game experience dependent on anyone else.

I travel alot and spend many weeks without or with limited internet.

I dont like the idea of being dependent on internet. Even if I do have it and play 95% multiplayer I feel like it should be my choice to buy a disk and install it on a computer without any internet connection. As an armaholic its a scary idea that I have to be connected the rest of my life. What if I want to live in a place where internet is impossible or too expensive?

Edited by andersson

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I voted no.

I dont have any problems with online purchase (bought BAF, PMC via sprocket), but steam has too many issues.

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@ Big Dawg KS

No need to go offtopic here. Law is always higher than EULA.

Reselling of any legal product is in almost all countries of the world permitted of course.

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Anyway the point is, whether or not you can physically hold something in your hands doesn't really make a difference here (legally). If you read the EULA for ArmA 2, even if you have bought a DVD copy, BI essentially has the same rights as Valve, the difference being Valve can probably actually enforce it with Steam.

Any consumer who knows their rights will wipe their ass with terms and conditions that are shown only after the product is bought. Reselling a legal physical copy is not prohibited anywhere as far as I know, and Steam is enforcing its own made-up rules that limit the consumer's rights compared to a physical product and the rules are solely for the benefit of Valve and its clients at the expense of customers who would normally have every right to pass their copies on to others.

Edited by Celery

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@ Big Dawg KS

No need to go offtopic here.

Well it's not really offtopic. 103 people voted "No, please not Steam because...", and the vast majority of those "because's" are related to what I was talking about, but yea it is diverging somewhat from what my original point was.

I'll restate my point then. My issue here is not about whether or not people like Steam. My issue is the validity/constructiveness of this poll. It would seem that the majority of people voting here have a personal grudge against Steam, and that's fine, but in the end one has to compare the risks versus the benefits, and it would appear that there could be some benefits in integrating more Steam features. That's why it would be nice to get more details about the possible future impacts this may have.

Dear community,

Steam is becoming very significant part of today's PC Gaming as well as it was crucial part of the success of Arma 2 / Operation Arrowhead.

There are already many games that are simply Steam only but Bohemia Interactive so far tried to stay service agnostic as we did not like concept of enforcing our users in any direction. What is your opinion, should we make our games Steam only or provide Steam specific enhancements or not?

Personally, I don't think it's fair to be so vague and then ask people's opinions, especially since quite a few people here voicing their concerns haven't even used Steam or ArmA 2 on Steam. Depending on the details, IMO it could either be a good or bad decision. For example, if it meant fixing a lot of the compatability issues and easier patch deployment then it would be a more welcome possibility. Alternatively if it made using/making mods more difficult or hindered the beta patching/community feedback process then yea it would be pretty terrible.

Edited by Big Dawg KS

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Voted not sure.

I almost exclusively buy from steam other than the occasional christmas gift as I have a piss poor history of storing discs and keeping track of booklets/slips of paper with serial keys on them and such (this has actually resulted in me rebuying games I purchased via retail years ago again on steam).

Currently the only issues I had with the Steam version of CO is getting CO to run smoothly with mods without the need of a launcher though I've been using launchers exclusively to launch ArmA since ArmA1 so it's kind of a moot point but for other people it was mind numbing. However the current implementation of running CO in steam is gonna cause headaches for people who do not have the patience to figure it out (and in their right they shouldn't have to in comparison to the simpler retail install of CO), and having them stuck with that headache as the only option isn't going to be good in the long run.

Unless there's a more expedient method of combining ArmA2 and Arrowhead devised through the sole devotion of the Steam platform, this very issue will be a reason not to go the "Steam Only" route. It'll be the spear head of a shitstorm in the forums that will reign on for months if not years, not including the fact that there are many who just do not want/do not like/have violent sexual fantasies for/owe gambling debts to/where snubbed for an Oscar in favor for Steam

Of course another issue that everyone will agree on is the large file size for the patches though it is my understanding that Steam updates the pbo's differently from the BIS patch installer and thus results in Steam replacing entire PBO's. The thing is forcing this on everyone is another thing that is only going to cause more problems. Not everyone lives in an area with fast internet where such a download would only take a couple of hours, but rather ends up being a day or more. Some people in the world live in places that just have piss poor access to Steam servers, Africa I believe is one of them as I recall hearing one from South Africa mentioning his issues dealing with ArmA1 and steam.

I never had any issues getting a Mod to run, that is after getting CO working. They work the same way as retail just buried in the steamapps folder directory instead of a main "program files" or what ever folder people choose to install their game to, and I am often baffled at how Steam users are unable to follow almost the exact same instructions running a mod that one would with the retail version, the only difference being the directory. Beyond that the real problem with mods for those who do not use the assistance of a launcher as addressed by one or two people already is that steam directory folder string for the target-line is LONG and you will run out of characters in the target-line if you are trying to run a lot of mods, though this can and will happen with the retail version as well with heavy use of mod folders that are not condensed and thus again....the use of a launcher. However like another mentioned previously, an actual fully working integrated mod window would be very welcome. Good examples were mentioned, like what Oblivion, or Mount and Blade: Warband have, or even what Arrowhead already has, just....functional.

To even think about doing a Steam only version would have to require a very dedicated effort to remedy a lot of inconveniences mentioned including more that were not, and even some that are in the retail game because otherwise there's simply no reason to stick to just Steam as a sole platform for distribution. There's no attractive benefits for those who prefer physical copies to choose otherwise, and even then, as many have expressed, there are many who just do not like the idea, be it the preference for physical copies, uneasiness about Steam itself, or an actual bad experience dealing with Steam.

edit: additionally i want to add my comments on running mods is strictly that, RUNNING them. Creating mods and such I cannot offer an opinion or insight on any hassles or benefits that revolve around the steam version of the game.

Edited by Steakslim

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..snip..

Currently the only issues I had with the Steam version of CO is getting CO to run smoothly with mods without the need of a launcher though I've been using launchers exclusively to launch ArmA since ArmA1 so it's kind of a moot point but for other people it was mind numbing. However the current implementation of running CO in steam is gonna cause headaches for people who do not have the patience to figure it out (and in their right they shouldn't have to in comparison to the simpler retail install of CO), and having them stuck with that headache as the only option isn't going to be good in the long run.

..snip..

Emphasis my own. Wonky steam integration? Solution is remarkably simple and you've pretty much highlighted it yourself. BIS release their own Launcher interface which coexists with steam (or without).

Beyond that I think Big Dawg KS pretty much has nailed it.

-k

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I voted no. Why? Because I know a lot of people that don't like Steam for some reason. I absolutely love Steam and purchased another copy of both ArmA 2 and ArmA 1, even though I already have both on disc. Steam is very convenient and simply to use. I have over 100 games that I have purchased on Steam. They have very good sales and update your games automatically as soon as possible.

But, I do not think that BIS should distribute ArmA only over Steam. Also distribute disc versions of the game. Maybe not create a disc for every DLC or addon. I believe that BIS should not require Steam to run with ArmA, but maybe integrate advanced features with steam such as joining games with friends or settings game events.

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I own AO from STEAM and never had problems with it. the only annoying thing is that it takes forever to find the right directory for the game. Good thing is that it updates itself automaticly. I still liked my sprocket version of ARMA as i could just burn it to DVD.

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@ Big Dawg KS

People are expressing very clearly their concerns and issues.

If Valve and BI can manage to sort these, in the end BI could make it STEAM only,

yet with the ability to buy a DVD copy, able to play without being logged into steam,

able to run the game without steam, introduce delta patching and retain all other options

it currently has.

On the other hand the key question remains unclear so far.

What are the benefits to the customer by this move? What can steam/steamworks provide?

For BI it would be obviously easier to manage only one way of distribution.

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Voted No to Steam-only.

-Steam is the devil.

-Sprocket is delightful.

-When occasionally going mental due to tedious mission bugfixing, i want to be able to throw the DVD box across the room. Steam-only would most likely result in a broken monitor.

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So far I'm loving Steam and I know this type of service is the Future for gaming(as in no disks at bestbuy,gamestop,etc). Steam alone I think would be bad because not everyone uses it yet.So if we get rid of disks I think we still need some type of packaging.Maybe just those cards would work and use Steam,Sprocket or whatever to deliver the download.As of now I think a lot of people like a disk they can throw in the computer.They feel they can trust it more and I couldn't argue with that reasoning.I realy do love my experience with steam though.So far its great.I can re-download all I want and the games are often on sale(as in I got my ARMA2,OA,Brits,and PMC on Thanksgiving weekend sale for next to nothing ). :yay:

.I can play my games offline and don't have any issues so far with Steam.The present and future is online and with Digital download content.I think this is were Steam,Sprocket,etc have the chance to realy step up and make it work for us.

---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------

-When occasionally going mental due to tedious mission bugfixing, i want to be able to throw the DVD box across the room. Steam-only would most likely result in a broken monitor.

LOL :D . Gotta love it though ;)

Edited by cotabucky

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