AH-64 Pack

[DaSquade 0]

Just wanted to congrats the involved guys again on the work. Keep it up on this wonderfull project. I kinda dropped out on modeling and gaming, but the apache gave me a lot of joy ingame. Yours might push me back into the game one day.

I can only hope this gets the proper realisme functions including the 'take on helicopters' cockpit controles and video overlays.

*Voted for helicopter sim platform!

A bit offtopic, but did you guys looked into realistic pilot/crew layouts?

That would be the cherry on the pie imho.

Apperently this is the new Apache helmet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/peosoldier/6244695502/sizes/o/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/peosoldier/6244688646/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Maybe you can work something out with PuFu as he is making the airwarrior helmet and the apache one shares the base shape if not mistaken.

Never the less, keep in there and good luck.

[nodunit 397]

Hey DaSquade thanks for showing us this, had no idea..just when you thought apache pilot helmets could not look any stranger..

Pilots are definately on the to do list, no chance we'd let standard helms slip by..as for the TKOH stuff, as far as I am aware there are no open pbo's or information regarding how interactable functions are performed, we tried a few methods prior courtesy of Myke and Nou but ran into complications when motion comes into action. Franze was willing to try any means to get it to work including widening the interaction area so that while not necessarily button to button, looking at the MPD would at least produce a result, unfortunately this too met with problems.

About the RTT, I'm not sure the preview allows for camera in motion or with the complex commands so we wouldn't be able to tie the nose sensors to a moving camera sadly.. If the ability to have interactable cockpits with the preview was an option then it might change his mind but otherwise Franze wants to keep this to as base OA as possible.

That said we aren't pulling corners where we see them, for example we've even made a fuel page to indicate the status of a fuel tank, fuel useage and time left in flight, Franze even wrote a solution so that we may use LCD text rather than default.

There is plenty more but I'd rather not spoil things, thanks again for bringing the helmet up, I'll have a talk with Pufu sometime in future.

[DaSquade 0]

Thanks for the info and sorry, most of the info was apperently already posted before (regarding the issues). I'm not in the loop anymore but maybe the current build (TOH) might have many restrictions...in the end, i haven't played it yet.

I'm sure we all can life with a 'basic' OA compatible version untill stuff gets more officially and documented.

About the helmet. Well as you might know, PEOsoldier features many 'field tested' items but often this stuff gets standard equipement.

[nodunit 397]

Ah that's quite alright, I appreciate the post nonetheless :)

The community build gave/gives us a taste of how TKOH will function, things such as vibrations, wind, RTT, new collective controls, flight model and many other things. Deanos experimented with the RTT capabilities and as a mirror it looks nice but for a camera, for our needs it is very basic and I'm not sure has the requirements.

If it can see through thermal as is now and track a turret then we probably could play with it for TADS and PNVS but that is a big IF.

I've spoken with Franze about TKOH and the most major hurdle there would be combat capabilities, we've seen a huey loaded with miniguns and rockets but would missiles be useable, against what and would we still be able to keep the current abilities we have IE target symbology presented through MPD and cycled+adjustable display range, with IHADSS giving direction and range to target and confirmation of minimum range or bad LOS.

If a combat environment like what we can see right now in Arma2 is availible (some anti air and tanks to chew up etc) then given all of the other features it would be very difficult to resist TKOH after arma2.

[noubernou 77]

Good thing the S-300 can't see well in the NOE environment. :p

There's not a whole lot to talk about in terms of visual updates; I've been building some support stuff for the planned campaigns plus working on scripting and Nodunit has been working on the cockpit.

Just wait till someone models me an SA-15 chassis! :D

---------- Post added at 01:26 ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 ----------

Pilots are definately on the to do list, no chance we'd let standard helms slip by..as for the TKOH stuff, as far as I am aware there are no open pbo's or information regarding how interactable functions are performed, we tried a few methods prior courtesy of Myke and Nou but ran into complications when motion comes into action. Franze was willing to try any means to get it to work including widening the interaction area so that while not necessarily button to button, looking at the MPD would at least produce a result, unfortunately this too met with problems.

What sort of issues specifically? In my example, did you continue to use the CBA per-frame handler or something that also used unscheduled per-frame execution?

[nodunit 397]

I don't know exactly how all this stuff works but the way I understood it was that the points would start to move around and become less precise or something to that degree.

I don't know if Franze used CBA or not (I supposedly am but it keeps chewing me that I am using the wrong version regardless of what I do..), when you have the time would you please drop him a PM talking about it in more depth? I do know that he is trying to use as few outside addons as possible but in this case there could be an exception if it works.

Edited October 21, 2011 by NodUnit

[franze 196]

Just wait till someone models me an SA-15 chassis! :D

Ah, those pesky radar guided missiles. They just never seem to work right when the target has both an RFI and a radar jammer. And then those fancy AGM-114L capabilities that don't even require Longbow to be on. ;)

Actually I considered building SA-15 (though it wouldn't be spectacular high detailed model) but there's not a whole lot of SA-15 around right now vs SA-19, SA-8, SA-9, SA-6, etc. We'll probably recycle the SA-6 system from ArmA1 and replace the scripting system to discourage high altitude flying, but smaller, shorter ranged systems will likely be SA-13, SA-8 and similar.

What sort of issues specifically? In my example, did you continue to use the CBA per-frame handler or something that also used unscheduled per-frame execution?

The problem seems to be due to the distance of the crew to the target object and the speed of the crew and the target object. As we maneuver around, the position should remain the same, but it seems to bounce around. Maybe I missed something though, so I'm willing to revisit it and see if I left something out.

[Gedis 0]

Ah, those pesky radar guided missiles. They just never seem to work right when the target has both an RFI and a radar jammer. And then those fancy AGM-114L capabilities that don't even require Longbow to be on. ;)

good thing it has optical tracking system too... either way Tor is capable of taking out hellfires too... :p

as said previously, those pro wersterners don't know a $h!t ^_^

[franze 196]

good thing it has optical tracking system too... either way Tor is capable of taking out hellfires too... :p

as said previously, those pro wersterners don't know a $h!t ^_^

I'd like to see a Tor take out a HELLFIRE with the optical tracking only. :p

But regardless of your opinion of which is better, lets try and keep this about the AH-64, not Russia's next newest SAM system.

So anyways, while our primary focus is to create a series of AH-64 helicopters, we've also been working on building a couple of campaigns; for the US release we've been planning on adding two maps and two campaigns. The maps are not going to be super high detail, but they will be large enough to take advantage of the planned capabilities of the aircraft. The first map is intended primarily for training and we'll use it for various familiarization scenarios, but it will also be used for three training campaigns of the same basic nature: the first scenario pits US vs US equipment against one another, the second US vs Russian equipment, and the third US vs Soviet-era equipment. The three training campaigns will serve as a preparation for the 'real' campaign on the second map, but I don't have a scenario ready to play out for that one yet. So while our focus might be on the AH-64, we want it to be more than just "here's an addon, make a mission with it"; we want to be able to release a package that can be enjoyed without having to learn all the technical details of the addon.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Franze

[hellfire257 3]

You're a bunch of magicians, you and NodUnit. :D

[Macadam Cow 1]

Maps, campaign and training missions...hmmm that's the cherry on the pie...well actually it's another pie on the pie !

:D

Keep up the good work guys !

[b00ce 160]

So anyways, while our primary focus is to create a series of AH-64 helicopters, we've also been working on building a couple of campaigns; for the US release we've been planning on adding two maps and two campaigns. The maps are not going to be super high detail, but they will be large enough to take advantage of the planned capabilities of the aircraft. The first map is intended primarily for training and we'll use it for various familiarization scenarios, but it will also be used for three training campaigns of the same basic nature: the first scenario pits US vs US equipment against one another, the second US vs Russian equipment, and the third US vs Soviet-era equipment.

Ft. Rucker or Ft. Hood maybe? :D

Please?

[franze 196]

The training map I already started a couple weeks ago, using elevation data from the midwest. Aside from the height map, the place depicted is strictly fictional to cut down on the workload. Both Hood and Rucker are incredibly object dense for a 40x40km area and the same is pretty much true of almost every other US Army post out there, so to keep things light enough the fictional route is the way we have to go.

[b00ce 160]

Wow. 40x40? :eek:

[max power 21]

The training map I already started a couple weeks ago, using elevation data from the midwest. Aside from the height map, the place depicted is strictly fictional to cut down on the workload. Both Hood and Rucker are incredibly object dense for a 40x40km area and the same is pretty much true of almost every other US Army post out there, so to keep things light enough the fictional route is the way we have to go.

Just make sure there's a beach on there somewhere... for the, uh... contest.

[franze 196]

Wow. 40x40? :eek:

40x40 is about as small as you can go with a force vs force battle and not instantly be in combat the moment you take off. FCR detection range is out at 10km, so some room to maneuver is needed. We sacrifice some detail for the space but the tradeoff is worth it.

[nodunit 397]

Firstly I would like to apologize to everyone for bumping this thread, this is not a progress update of any sort, no this post and these pictures are for something else entirerly. Secondly I want to say that this post is not directed at any particular person of the community, nor is it meant as an attack but rather a hopeful eye opener, it will also be a large post but if you think that modding is at an all time low and you would like to somehow promote then please do not overlook this.

______________________________________________________

Through the years we've seen modding slowly deteriorating, and while it is no doubt true that the complexity of standards has made things more difficult and demanding, I can't shake this feeling that to a point we have failed to promote it.. I've examined the WIP thread several pages back and many many other topics, and I can't help but notice something missing.

Now before we get to that I want you think back to your first model, everyone started out very simple, some of us chose a more challenging approach but we all skittered along tutorials and the art of others for inspiration and direction. How many times did you skim through a community forum, looking at textures, techniques, wire frames and suggestions?

We all started off and to this day have ro-models to our hobbies, people we closely examined to learn from them. We then applied those lessons into experience and worked to better ourselves with it, learning how things worked and so on. Even if we started out on our own, toiling with the tools to teach ourselves, at some point or another we looked to another.

And I see a severe lack of that here..I don't know if it is the rising fear of piracy, critics or some other driving force but we have become very secluded with our work, what we show are either grey or fully textured models (and there is some truley great stuff out there!)while that is fine well and good it doesn't exactly promote in inviting others.

To do that two things need to happen..first we need to lower our standards, I don't mean for everyone but we can't expect someone who has just entered into any form of addon creation to be a whiz at it. Instead of beating them down with insults of how we won't use the addon due to it's quality we should instead encourage, and provide them with examples.

And two we need to show more..you can learn a LOT from a gaming forum and by looking at peoples UV's, textures, wireframes, coding and so on.

I post this UV and these wireframes (texture is VERY basic at the moment) to show that I am willing to back up what I say. http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee200/NodUnit/Model%20work/AH-64D/Work%20In%20Progress/Apache%20Renders/Wireframe/

If you do not wish to do the same with your assets then I cannot blame you, I would however ask that you look inside and question as to what the driving force of that is.. we live in a world where nothing is foolproof, it does not matter what security system BI could ever give us, it would be cracked in time. So ask yourself, how much do you enjoy creating addons, why do you do it, would you let that fear drive you from doing it and would you like to help others who want to be part of the same hobby?

I won't crtiticsize you for continuing with things as they are, but I hope that you consider these words and perhaps contribute to helping others as well. Finally to stand 100% behind me words I want you to criticsize me, find at least one thing wrong with what I've done be it UV or model, I don't care but tell me I did something wrong so that I may learn from it, because that is what the process SHOULD be about. Afterall, how can we improve ourselves by being unaware of the flaws.

The ball is in your court community, we can keep the WIP section as addon promotion or we can extend it to a learning process, not just for us but for others as well.

Edited November 24, 2011 by NodUnit

[hellfire257 3]

I actually have no idea how to reply to that, but I do agree with you! I think the some of the best role model(s) for what you have suggested would be the ever helpful guys over in the editing section. We have Myke, Kju, Demonized, Loyalguard, and many many others who are willing to spend time to help out others who share their hobby. These guys are a real credit to the community.

My apologies to anyone I haven't mentioned (there's a lot of you!), but you all know who you are and I think you need a lot more credit for what you do.

[max power 21]

I completely agree with you. Especially with some of the recent behaviour in the Rise and Fall of Germany thread. I actually found the developers quite resilient to criticism but they gave up in the end. If it's not pressure from people who have not used a 3d tool in their lives, I guess it's pressure to live up to the standard of other mod makers who have been doing it for ten years already.

Initially, when I stole Adumb's WIP thread, I wanted to turn it into something like a mini CG talk where addon makers can show their wip models for the specific purpose of having it critqued by other artists. Steel sharpens steel. But, everyone just wants to post action shots and advertisements for dancing bananas posted by 14 year olds. I guess this thing would better work as a group or something.

[noubernou 77]

Agreed 100%. For scripters its easy to see what other people do in this game (and I know most of us scripters wouldn't be any where near as good as we are with out having checked out what other people are doing/how they are doing it), but for model makers it takes some fairly nefarious methods to get an insight into what people are doing (and I don't want to turn this in to an argument about that) and it'd be nice if more people were open on what they are doing to get things done.

I have to say that the model making skype channel has been very helpful when I have had questions. I'd like to see that continue, though the medium is not very good for archiving information. Something like ArmA Stack was a good idea (but it looks down now, :().

I know I have been harsh to some people in the past, but I try at least (I think) to be constructive in my harshness, especially with some people who should know better.

[W0lle 1052]

I have to say that the model making skype channel has been very helpful when I have had questions. I'd like to see that continue, though the medium is not very good for archiving information. Something like ArmA Stack was a good idea (but it looks down now, :().

Closed social group here for everything that should be archived, skype group for quick help.

That social group could also be used for posting WIP screens without the "can't wait!!!! :yay::yay:" crowd. ;)

[rksl-rock 1301]

...

If you do not wish to do the same with your assets then I cannot blame you, I would however ask that you look inside and question as to what the driving force of that is.. we live in a world where nothing is foolproof, it does not matter what security system BI could ever give us, it would be cracked in time. So ask yourself, how much do you enjoy creating addons, why do you do it, would you let that fear drive you from doing it and would you like to help others who want to be part of the same hobby?

I won't crtiticsize you for continuing with things as they are, but I hope that you consider these words and perhaps contribute to helping others as well. Finally to stand 100% behind me words I want you to criticsize me, find at least one thing wrong with what I've done be it UV or model, I don't care but tell me I did something wrong so that I may learn from it, because that is what the process SHOULD be about. Afterall, how can we improve ourselves by being unaware of the flaws...

The flaw lies with the community as a whole not just a few individuals. The atmosphere on these and some other boards stinks. People are very quick to criticise and condemn. In fact that is a hobby around here. There are far too many veiled references to "the greater problems in the community" with no explanations. This opens the door to people spreading rumours of elitism and conspiracy. While others openly support theft and plundering.

... Speak out to defend yourself and your work you get insulted and attacked on all sides by anyone and everyone. Including on several occasions people with moderator powers. It's not really a nice atmosphere to work in and it's not an easy one to get help in.

People really should just talk to each other before ripping into other people's work. If they did, maybe they would actually make some friends. Some basic manners and courtesy wouldn't hurt.

I know more than a few people that have left the BIS community for "underground" and far more supportive groups and boards. The problem has always been less about what "BIS needs to do for us" and more about what we should be doing for ourselves. So far there is a lot of talk but little or no action. Some websites were touted early on as havens of free knowledge but most either died off from lack of support or devolved into "little empires".

I know a lot of people that spend a huge amount of time helping others. I spend about 8 hours a week on average writing PM's and emails. Its seriously cut into my own modding time but I rather like the fact i now have friends from all over the world as a result.

So, yes Nodnit I agree with you but not about who is the cause. You need to widen the scope a bit to include all those who are too quick to judge and too fond of shit stirring. Everyone here needs to grow up and learn some manners and courtesy.

You never know it might just make it a nicer world all over :P

[wld427 1705]

@rock and nodunit +1

One of the hardest things to do here is get established as a new mod. The old Brsseb tutorials is how i had to start. Alot of that basic knowledge ahs been lost. Especially when the kiddies around here expect everything to be of extreme master quality and want it released today.

The flip side of that is sometimes people just expect thigns to get done for them and do not put in the effort to gain the knowledge and skill to do it themselves. This promotes the dying off of modding and the difficulty of keeping up witht he advancing game.

It took alot of reaching out and contacting established mods such as Rock's, FFAAmod, and vilas. In time you have to make those connections to learn things from your friends. Simply posting it all in a site or biki does nothing to promote the community or sharing of knowledge.

Conversation is a lost art ont he world today. With more of it this would be a much more vivid and better community.

The other major difficulty is breaking into some of the established cliques here. Sometimes people just dont want to let the new guy in.

[-GR-Operative 10]

Well said NodUnit.

I remember when I started modding (I still don't mod for A2, because I really lack a PC for even playing the game, instead playing in a friend's PC, but I really like low poly modding :rolleyes:). Just some simple reskins of a weapon for a somewhat popular game. Really simple if I think about it now, but at the time (what, more than half a decade ago?) it was a real pain to get things working. Using the Command Prompt to change the textures (made putting some camo on the original texture) and changing all the entries to match the 'new' weapons took me eternally to learn. It's a steep curve. While I never 'copied' other's work (actually, it was not possible to use other's models, because the modeling sofhware lacked import features for the supported format) for unauthorized distribuition, I did use their work as a base on how it's done (things simple, like using their configs as a start so I can make things right). It helped me a lot.

It's nice to see people allowing others 'take a peek' at their creation, so the others are able to create for themselves ;)

Also, support and construtive criticism are likely to help the starters, but on the other hand a demanding community can turn them away.

Above everything, we must respect the modders (newcomers and veterans) creations, because almost everyone use addons to enhance their experience or for any other use they may have, but they are still free. Modder get rewarded with respect and recognition from their community ;)

PS.: Sorry for any mistake I might have made. Any issue, I may retify the text if it's mistakenly written.

[W0lle 1052]

... Speak out to defend yourself and your work you get insulted and attacked on all sides by anyone and everyone. Including on several occasions people with moderator powers.

Names and proof please, asap.

It was clear to me that you use this chance for another of your rant posts. But saying the moderators here insulted you is definitely crossing the border.

If other users insult you, there is the report to moderator button. If you don't use it - your problem, but then come in here and complain about it.