AH-64 Pack

[abs 2]

Names and proof please, asap.

It was clear to me that you use this chance for another of your rant posts. But saying the moderators here insulted you is definitely crossing the border.

If other users insult you, there is the report to moderator button. If you don't use it - your problem, but then come in here and complain about it.

Zipper5, and feel free to search through the RKSL thread to find the discussions in question. If I wasn't at work, I would most definitely do it for you. More specifically, there was a bit where he did not see the difference between stating his opinion, and enforcing his moderator powers.

This is just an FYI, if you had some free time to look. Also, not here to discuss how the forum is moderated, I'm just answering your question.

Abs

[rksl-rock 1300]

Names and proof please, asap.

It was clear to me that you use this chance for another of your rant posts. But saying the moderators here insulted you is definitely crossing the border.

If other users insult you, there is the report to moderator button. If you don't use it - your problem, but then come in here and complain about it.

Now there you go. If I had posted names and proof I would have been banned wouldn't I. I'm trying to stay in the rules here. But I'm not actually referring to just myself. I'm referring to the condescending derogatory tone used by more than just Zipper5. ;)

We've had this discussion before Wolle about expectation of impartiality and courtesy/manners from moderators before.

And before you try to make this about me. Its not. Just as I said from day one its a wider community issue and comment on the current forum culture. But as always some people are intent on making something out of my post that it is not.

Placing the blame at the feet of a small few is wrong.

I've said my piece.

@Abs Thank you for chipping in.

@Abs EDIT 2 the Orignal RKSL thread was heavily edited removing all the posts.

Edited November 24, 2011 by RKSL-Rock
cant spell.

[W0lle 1048]

Now there you go. If I had posted names and proof I would have been banned wouldn't I.

No. In worst case you would have got your first infraction ever. But surely not a ban. ;)

Ah yes that old story of zipper5 abusing his moderator powers and making whole threads disappear to cover his actions. :rolleyes:

Really that old story made up in an attempt to get him removed gets boring by now. But at least you won and he's no moderator now.

I'm pretty sure that back then I told you that our actions are logged and there was not even the slightest hint in them that he permanently removed threads or posts, something he couldn't do anyway.

That thread you are referring to was cleaned up by Placebo. And not to cover zipper5 but because it ended up in a complete heated off-topic mess. The posts are still there though and I'm absolutely sure Placebo would never allow us to insult you or anyone else here.

At best you could say his (zipper5) comments were inappropriate, and he maybe should have marked them as personal opinion.

However, it should be clear by now that we take part in discussions as part of the community and not as moderators. At least to someone that long around as you it should be clear. But you just can't let go, that is your problem. You just must dig out that old story again and again at every chance you get. Would you make such a fuss about it when he wouldn't have been moderator back then? Most probably not.

If you don't like the fact that we Moderators taking part of forum discussions as part of the community then I'm afraid you have to move on because as long as there is no official order to stop this, we will continue as we did in the past ten years.

If you feel offended by anyones posts you can complain at Placebo. He then will look into the issue and take actions where necessary. But in your eyes this probably would be pointless as he's also part of the plot...

[rksl-rock 1300]

No. In worst case you would have got your first infraction ever. But surely not a ban. ;)

Ah yes that old story of zipper5 abusing his moderator powers and making whole threads disappear to cover his actions. :rolleyes:

Really that old story made up in an attempt to get him removed gets boring by now. But at least you won and he's no moderator now.

I'm pretty sure that back then I told you that our actions are logged and there was not even the slightest hint in them that he permanently removed threads or posts, something he couldn't do anyway.

That thread you are referring to was cleaned up by Placebo. And not to cover zipper5 but because it ended up in a complete heated off-topic mess. The posts are still there though and I'm absolutely sure Placebo would never allow us to insult you or anyone else here.

At best you could say his (zipper5) comments were inappropriate, and he maybe should have marked them as personal opinion.

However, it should be clear by now that we take part in discussions as part of the community and not as moderators. At least to someone that long around as you it should be clear. But you just can't let go, that is your problem. You just must dig out that old story again and again at every chance you get. Would you make such a fuss about it when he wouldn't have been moderator back then? Most probably not.

If you don't like the fact that we Moderators taking part of forum discussions as part of the community then I'm afraid you have to move on because as long as there is no official order to stop this, we will continue as we did in the past ten years.

If you feel offended by anyones posts you can complain at Placebo. He then will look into the issue and take actions where necessary. But in your eyes this probably would be pointless as he's also part of the plot...

LMFAO

Nice attempt to denigrate me and make out to be some sort of conspiracy nut. It's this kind of response that I was referring to. Impolite. Insulting in vary degrees of subtlety. I have reported various offensive posts in past. You and i even discussed them on Skype.

For the record I don't see a conspiracy. Just personal bias. Which is sad.

[noubernou 77]

You know what also is hurting the community? Going wildly off-topic. ;)

[jagheterjan 10]

While we're all together so merrily, holding hands and all that, allow me to ask which closed user group we've been talking earlier?

[max power 21]

I believe the group is hypothetical. I guess it would be like an ArmA 2 Modellers group or something. The reason it would be closed is to make sure that it's only modellers helping each other and not a community showcase. There is also Addon Makers Friends, started by Vilas, but that group seems to be about direct collaboration rather than advice so far. I guess it could be expanded depending on the wishes of whoever becomes the new administrator.

[abs 2]

In an effort to bring this back on topic, I wanted to show my support to NodUnit's post by uploading a video tutorial series that I was working on. A little while ago I had asked if anyone wanted to learn the methods I use when making vehicle models and a few people said yes. I quickly made 6 tutorial videos the next day, but the sixth one didn't save properly and I became frustrated. For now, I'll upload the five that I made and will upload more as they are made.

Here is a link to my post.

Abs

Edited November 24, 2011 by Abs
Factual error.

[-GR-Operative 10]

Great Abs! Will check it ;)

[nodunit 397]

Thank you for the support Abs, I wish I had seen that when I started blueprints long ago, didn't know you could rotate the image at the time and the box technique for the setup is very smooth and clever, up to this point I've only seen people using planes rather than conversion. I'm afraid however that video 3 is down due to being too long.

Criticism can be harsh..as you put it Rock, shit stirrers never sit well with anyone but at the same it could be miscomunication, they may not mean to be rude or mean but come off that way, hell lord knows I do it all the time..sigh... Criticism should come with knowledge for sure, if you are going to tell someone of their flaws then the best you can do is try and provide a means to help them surpass them..but those that simply want to fight will always be on the prowl, and if they are simply there to fight then we must simply ignore them. Remember that all they say are nothing but words, they hold no power other than what we give them.

I'd like to share a story as [GR]Operative did.. my first model ever was a humvee, broken into hundreds of blocks (I kid you not), for the longest time I couldn't figure out the goings on and after a literal turkey basting of critique that in fact convinced me that I shouldn't be doing any of this..I quit. I came into O2 and with the help of a few people, Franze especially I learned how to create faces and weld..simple things that anyone could do at the time but these paved the road to becoming interested again.

I spent hours searching the web for tutorials, photo's of textures, UV's (and still do on that..) mesh flow and many other things before I sat down. This bird has been a long learning process and I have that heavy critique to thank for it really, had they not pointed out the flaws in my work I wouldn't be so hard pressed nor would I be enjoying it today. That said the heavy hand is certainly not for everyone, the one who accused me was half in the right and half in the wrong, critique means nothing without some form of direction, a suggestion in one form or another in manners other than "just quit". And really you can't let that type get to you because if you let them beat you down then you will lose something you may otherwise enjoy..I wanted to prove them wrong, I wanted to say that I understood proportion, that I understood how these things work and by god I am NOT going to let them take this from me!

Words only hold what power we give them, we can choose to let them empower us, or overpower us, to raise us up to beat us down..and if you enjoy doing something then don't let them beat you down, if you don't feel as if you want to do it for others anymore then don't, do it for yourself and should you feel the desire to share then that is your choice, nobody can force your hand unless you allow them.

I'm not sure that underground groups are the best, the idea is communication yet but we can communicate in so many ways, both verbally and visually..if someone sees a picture that perks their curiosity of how something was done then they will ask you. But right now there is not much to ask about, many want closed social groups and while I understand the great asset this would provide for a tightly knit or like minded group, it doesn't promote new blood. If you hide knowledge with no way to find it then how can they learn, yes PM system is one method as Rock said and I am happy to hear about it, that said I don't think it is the most effective means to do this..if we want to really promote addon making as much as we can then we need to show more of the process, tutorials, wireframes, textures, how-to's, coding..hey everything (but only if you want to, don't feel as if you MUST).

The editing sub-forum is a great place for this but it is more of a problem solver than anything else, the WIP sub-forum could be used in far more manners than it is now, we could host threads of addon work in progress from the very beginning, showing it's construction and all witness and help one another...afterall there is always something new to learn.

We also need to get rid of this "Don't re-invent the wheel" mentality, we are not a business that churns out content because it must be done, we do it because we have a passion of some sort for it and as such..even if it exists, we should not try and deviate someone to work on something else, if that is their desire then we should encourage them towards it not push them away.

I'd like to thank you all for responding to this and sharing your thoughts, if you have anything you would like to share be it a story, technique, suggestion, anything then please do not hesitate to do so. As of now the addon is currently on hold to the public until all that we want to do is ready, and my wish is not so much to keep the addon itself fresh in your mind, as much as this message from all who contribute, perhaps some day we can make stickied sub threads showing various techniques and suggestions, share and work to better them with one another.

Edited November 25, 2011 by NodUnit

[max power 21]

Yes, the openness vs. closedness is a difficult thing to pin down. On the one hand, you don't want to limit the number of artists (or people with other disciplines) can benefit from communication, but also you want to keep the signal to noise ratio fairly high. I think the wip thread has pretty much established that that is next to impossible in an open, public setting. Limiting the chatter by communication is by definition confrontational, and that's not good for a creative setting either. Plus, it's a lot of work. In terms of the group idea, it wouldn't be closed as in secretive, but limited in the number of types of people who can post groves of undulating bananas without actually contributing to the discussion. That way non-member people could read about the problems and solutions if they wish to, and artists could seek help in PMs with other members if they didn't want the general public to see their work in a helpless, quivering, premature state.

There is also quite a lot to be said for people who are able to take criticism, and for people who can give it. When I was in school, the instructors would come around and hand out criticism in its most well meaning sense to help us stressed out students get the most out of the program. A lot of people were not able to capitalize on even that mild criticism because their egos were in the way. Some were even ever so slightly hostile at the comments and so the instructors came around to them less. In practice, their reels usually still had some flaws in there that they were already made aware of.

Then again, at least in art, a lot of artists really feel like they're letting a part of themselves hang out and harsh criticism actually hurts. Even I get a little anxious when I post something in a wip thread or if someone's doing a promo with my work in it, and I hover around and f12 a bunch for the next ten minutes, then I realize what I'm doing and go do something else. It's especially difficult when you're your own worst critic and you're already uncomfortable about what you're displaying. For people who are new to the community and are not established and comfortable, I think it's really important that while we are discussing a piece of artwork displayed on a machine, we are talking to a person who has a lot invested in what you are looking at- perhaps including but not limited to group acceptance.

[rksl-rock 1300]

To be honest I really think the idea of any closed group is a bad idea if you want to encourage new blood. If you want new people to pick up the tools and learn the insider tricks then you need transparency and open access. Moderate that access by all means but it should be visible to all to encourage them. (as for keeping them "above ground" well thats a culture thing).

I don't think the social group system on this forum is up to the task. There are too many limitations with in terms of bbcode, image hosting and text lengths.

For me the ideal solution would be a site similar to the old OFP Brsseb's site that gave you a basic introduction into all classes and limitations etc teamed with a Q&A system like that of ArmAstack.

Start with a core of basic tutorials and expand as people ask specific/relevant questions. Which once answered could either improve existing tuts or be the basis of further more advanced tutorials.

If you dont want to "reinvent the wheel" then you need to publish the plans. ;) Make it Easy to find. Easy to understand and Easy to use.

As for criticism. Well, im open to it. I don't always like it but I think you have to accept it if you are willing to publish anything about your work on the net in the public eye.

But personally i only "like" the constructive sort. :D

[b00ce 160]

Even I get a little anxious when I post something in a wip thread or if someone's doing a promo with my work in it, and I hover around and f12 a bunch for the next ten minutes, then I realize what I'm doing and go do something else. It's especially difficult when you're your own worst critic and you're already uncomfortable about what you're displaying.

I think we all do that. :p

Like everyone has been saying, transparency is key in both drawing new blood, as well as creating better content, but to a point. Hurray, we all agree with each other.

:rolleyes:

[[frl]myke 14]

A very good read, should deserve it's own thread IMHO.

The biggest issue i do encounter occasionally is, that people do refuse every offer for help. More than once i was looking through newly released addons and posted comments like "appreciate your effort but in it's actual state personally i wouldn't use it because of <list of issues>. Try to sort them out and it will be great, keep it up.". Often the reply was something like "i like it how it is and if you don't like it, don't use it.".

What do you say in such cases? Often i replied that they should look at this antr try that, read this tutorial and so on.

Such cases don't really help to keep enthusiasm to help on a high level. I look at it and ask myself why i'm still trying it (to help).

Sure, everyone who brings an addon to release can be and should be proud of it, i know myself it's a hard time to get there, no doubt. But i fail to understand how someone could not want to make it even better, especially when the flaws are too obvious.

Can it be i'm demanding too much? Should i praise every addon regardless of it's quality? I'm sure do praise the effort such an addonmaker had put in but does this oblige me to praise it blindly?

Myself, without the help of a lot of community members, i would be a anonymous name amongst this forum without ever releasinf an addon. The help of the community brought me to the place i actually am. I see myself somewhere between the cracks like Rock and NodUnit (and a lot more, just naming 2) and the complete beginners. I still can learn a lot from those "above" me (speaking of skill levels) but also try to share my knowledge with those "below" me (also meaning skill levels, not thinking being anything superior, for heaves sake, don't get that wrong).

It's just, when i started and someone pointed the flaws of my works, i usually said "thank your" rather than "f*** off". It's this attitude some modders have that bugs me.

My 2 cents.

[max power 21]

Well, in those cases you can lead a horse to water...

[-GR-Operative 10]

Sometimes the 'harsh criticism' is not really that harsh. I think most users are not native english-speakers (including myself) and most lack a complete vocabulary to translate their words.

I, for instance, keep deleting parts of every post I do because I think some people may misunderstand it, as I'm not too sure what I'm writing is exactly what I'm thinking. I even search some complex words in translators and dictionaries, just to be sure it's what I'm trying to express.

The members, especially the non-english speakers, may get some words wrongs, thing like that, and a construtive critic may sound pretty hard on them.

Of course, there's people that don't accept criticism, but I don't blame them.

For me, I will always hear what people say about my creations, and will always voice my opinion about other's creations (with respect, of course), but will refrain to do so if they do not ask for help/opinions. Several authors want feedback (openly saying so in their threads), while others don't, and it's okay for me.

[nodunit 397]

Criticism...tough one but I've found in past many times that the best way to approach it is to offer the advice first and wait for the persons answer.. "If you don't mind I have a few suggestions." Or something to that degree..it is very difficult without a doubt not only from the language but also due to that if you pile too much on at once the creator may feel insulted or under too much stress.

There is also the very harsh approach but this is certainly not for everyone, the whole thing revolves around personality vs personality, by asking the other first you sort of get a feel..if they say no then you know they would rather not, likewise they could agree but respond with something different.."please be gentle with your comments", "lay it on me!" and so on. Of course if the attitude is a general.."Fuck off" then don't bother offering any advice, Constructive criticism is always good within limit normally, I don't think anyone should be exempt from it because in the end you never know, you may have thought you knew all there was to know and come to learn hey..something new but this also hinges on if they WANT to know.

Edited November 25, 2011 by NodUnit

[Serclaes 0]

As one who has experienced NodUnit's criticism, I have to say it helped a hell of a lot back then.

I went from this:

to this

in 4-5 Months. Sadly I had to drop modelling because of different events and never got back to the AH-64. Which i often regret for many reasons.

I learned a hell of a lot about modelling tho and I still am grateful to all who contributed to it, especially NodUnit. :)

To contribute something to the discussion:

Modelling is an important part of course, but right now I don't have a clue on how to get a model from blender to O2 and then into arma, with all the normal, specular, proxies etc. So what I think should not be neglected in tutorials is the worklflow.

Also, I know it takes a lot of experience, time and patience to craft a really good model. But I always found it especially difficult to determine whether something needed more or less polies, where they are important etc.

Hope I made some sense. :)

[nodunit 397]

Yes and look how far you came!..(doesn't sound awkward at all) I wondered what happened to your project. Should you do decide to pick it up again and would like some more assistance with it please let me know, I'll happily share all that I have.

Also Blender exporter :) http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=97889

Looking back on that I was a bit heavy with the suggestions but you took it very very well.

Edited November 26, 2011 by NodUnit

[Serclaes 0]

Don't worry, the suggestions, reference and overlays were exactly what I needed. I only had the few pictures I managed to gather myself and a crappy 1:72 scale plastic model because I had a hard time imagining things in 3d and simplifying them.

I doubt I'll get back to the apache as your model seems to progress very well and I better pick some easier model to begin with. :D

[Macadam Cow 1]

What a great read, thanks a lot NodUnit.

This is for the day before yesterday

This is for yesterday

This is for today

And yes, everyday I'm going to post this in your thread, 'till I get banned.

EDIT : lol, nice contrast with my sig :D

[slatts 1978]

as someone who is still pretty newbish to addon making, i do have to say it is hard to know where to start

but there are great tutorials out there that have really helped and people are helpful (most of the time :p )

[reconteam 19]

You've really created a sim within a sim here. Inception!

[M_Davey 10]

First time posting, but been following this since the early stages. Loving the work, and the pain staking attention to detail. Keep it up!

[weedman 10]

Are we actually going to see this beauty before arma 3 comes out? waiting and hoping