Knife proposal

[Pundaria 10]

If you're running out of ammo in a fire fight then you deserve to die.

A) Ask your team mate for another mag

B) Pick up a dead weapon off someone you killed earlier

C) Run away and hide until you can do either A or B

Knifing in Arma would be rediculous and again to re-iterate what someone said earlier, there's no such thing as a silent kill.

Oh and the East team get plenty of silenced weapons:

Makarov SD

AKSU-74N SD

Bizon SD

VSS Vintorez

What's wrong with a knife? It kills. Than it is a weapon. Than it deserves a place....

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I thought I already answered that a few posts up - "too much work for the small benefit". OFP had strokeGun, but was removed - why? I don't know, but probably had a reason for it.

At least read the answers given to you...

[Pundaria 10]

I thought I already answered that a few posts up - "too much work for the small benefit". OFP had strokeGun, but was removed - why? I don't know, but probably had a reason for it.

At least read the answers given to you...

Maybe it is I don't understand why it is a problem. The knife implement can lead to a re-make AI. Then it worths!

The change born by implementing knife is not only on knife itself

[ProfTournesol 956]

I thought I already answered that a few posts up - "too much work for the small benefit". OFP had strokeGun, but was removed - why? I don't know, but probably had a reason for it.

At least read the answers given to you...

The reason is : they considered this function as being useless, given the fact they didn't even implement it completely from the beginning. BUT it was useful for modders like me interested in non modern eras. Now they only solution left is scripting, which is far from being comfortable and satisfying.

And no, not too much work at all.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

If you're running out of ammo in a fire fight then you deserve to die.

A) Ask your team mate for another mag

B) Pick up a dead weapon off someone you killed earlier

C) Run away and hide until you can do either A or B

Knifing in Arma would be rediculous and again to re-iterate what someone said earlier, there's no such thing as a silent kill.

Actually you can kill someone more or less silently, it requires skill, training and .... a knife.

There is still a need for some kind of melee attack in the game, even if it's just twatting someone with the blunt end of your rifle.

[Daniel 0]

Ahhhh...

Drop the knife crap, we should be trying to convince BIS to work bayonets into the engine, especially if they're considering a UK expansion.

[rübe 127]

IMHO there should really be something generic to handle this (strokes/tools), including knifes (though I don't care if knifes are going to be implemented). But what this mechanism should also be capable of is to model a lot more things such as

• a simple punch (low damage applied to the directed target if of class man/animal)
  
• a knife stroke (medium to high damage applied to the directed target if of class man/animal)
  
• an elaborated knife attack from behind (cutting the throat, deadly to targets of class man)
  
• a shovel dig (spawning of small wall/ditch objects such as Fort_EnvelopeSmall)
  
• an axe stroke (destroying directed target if of class vegetation/bush/tree)
  
• a cord (maybe to tie someone - awesome; or to climb objects?)
  
• better medical tools/first aid (healing the directed target)
  
• a toolkit to repair vehicles
  
• and so on...
  

The crux is to have a custom "stroke" model, a custom stroke animation (or even multiple), a custom stroke condition to check if you can use it now and a custom stroke-hit handler. If done right, a lot of very useful and fun things could be done.

Maybe it shouldn't be a generic stroke, but a generic "tool" mechanism, and then have one new action-key to be bound for a "tool-action", triggering whatever tool is currently active/equiped. And then maybe allow secondary usage of a tool by double-tapping or something.

And of course, this needs to be scriptable - not hard-configed. So that for example a shovel could be used for different things. Thus it should be possible to script at least the "stroke-hit" or "tool-use" handler.

Totally

Edited July 13, 2010 by ruebe

[wamingo 1]

I'm no military expert or anything of the sort... so I was googling around in an attempt to confirm (or unconfirm) the use of knives and bayonets in the real world... Besides finding almost no references to actual bayonet charges or knife kills since vietnam, I came upon this headline:

"US Army thrusts bayonet aside after centuries of faithful service"

Today, if you don't have any ammunition left.. you withdraw from the battlefield..

High tech warfare (ie precision bombs) has made it costly to field soldiers and you don't throw them away with close combat, trench warfare or vietnam type scenario's.

Not even the taliban will charge with knives when out of ammo.

So, my take is that a game would significantly distort the actual usage. ie if we assume 1 in 1000 kills is done melee in reality, the game would quickly turn that into 1 in 10.

People will toy around rather than do what they ought to. I know _I_ would!

Don't give me candy and tell me I don't have to eat it all at once...

So those two reasons makes me not in favour.

Here's what I'd favour: The possibility of an unresolved fight. A fight with no clear winner. Because THAT is realistic. It happens EVERY day in afghanistan.

I'd like to see missions that are still called successful when you DON'T complete your objective list, but merely got your hide out of the fray.

But, perhaps that's for another subject and another time.

[HyperU2 11]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8252974.stm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article88661.ece

There was also a good bit of hand to hand combat in Najaf.

[dragon01 902]

I really like the idea of the tool system, ideally, it should allow to do two things with each tool: A "proper" use and meele attack (axe, wrench or showel can be quite effective in meele if used right). It wouold be really great if players could dig trenches, cut wires (those darn impassible fences with which any real Marine would not have any problem), do minor repairs to vechicles in field (ability to change a tire in a car could come in handy from time to time), etc. Also, parked vechicles (except those which don't require this) should require a either a bayonet or proper keys to get in, because they would obviously be locked, which is not reflected in ArmA II (OK, some people may leave their cars open in Sweden, but in post soviet countries like Poland or Chernarussia such behaviour would get those cars stolen in few minutes).

[UKMERC 10]

"Honestly if you need to use a knife or a melee weapon you havent done your job right."

A quote from my sergeant during my infantry training at catterick Garrison.Also during my specialised training it was said that if you need a melee weapon during a firefight your "F***ED".

I spent time in afghanistan and iraq as part of a task force and none of my men or fellow soldiers needed to resort to melee weapons. because we did the job properly.

I think BIS needs to work on the engine more and the game logic itself rather than adding unneeded ancillaries like melee weapons.

[Nicholas 5]

"Honestly if you need to use a knife or a melee weapon you havent done your job right."

A quote from my sergeant during my infantry training at catterick Garrison.Also during my specialised training it was said that if you need a melee weapon during a firefight your "F***ED".

I spent time in afghanistan and iraq as part of a task force and none of my men or fellow soldiers needed to resort to melee weapons. because we did the job properly.

I think BIS needs to work on the engine more and the game logic itself rather than adding unneeded ancillaries like melee weapons.

Thanks for the great post. Your sergeant is 100% right.

[JdB 151]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8252974.stm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article88661.ece

There was also a good bit of hand to hand combat in Najaf.

That's two instances of melee combat. And how many articles can you find about firefights that end with airpower or artillery finishing the engagement?

Exactly, tens of thousands from Iraq and Afghanistan alone. Troops in remote places in Afghanistan get attacked every time they leave the base, their base comes under some form of attack every day, but how often do you hear about the enemy being routed following a bayonet charge?

A handful of occasions maybe, in 9 years of fighting ...

It's just such a freak occurance that it's not worth putting in precious, expensive developer time, rather putting it into adding/enhancing things commonly encountered in combat.

Edited July 14, 2010 by JdB

[desmondb 10]

I don't think knives would really fit the engine well in its current state, I honestly don't think they are needed either. The only tac sim to properly implement knives and allow stealth kills was Hidden & Dangerous 2

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

What's wrong with a knife? It kills. Than it is a weapon. Than it deserves a place....

Hey, I can kill someone with a kitchen sink, better model that in the game too!

If you are in a scenario where you need to kill a soldier silently then chances are you are on a special operations mission at which point you would have been given a silenced weapon anyway.

[ProfTournesol 956]

"Honestly if you need to use a knife or a melee weapon you havent done your job right."

A quote from my sergeant during my infantry training at catterick Garrison.Also during my specialised training it was said that if you need a melee weapon during a firefight your "F***ED".

I spent time in afghanistan and iraq as part of a task force and none of my men or fellow soldiers needed to resort to melee weapons. because we did the job properly.

I think BIS needs to work on the engine more and the game logic itself rather than adding unneeded ancillaries like melee weapons.

Great, so because your sergeant said so, we modders must give up any historical mods in ArmA2. Nice.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

While i do agree there are other things that need to be done first, the ability to have melee weapons, like bayonets, would be something I would almost pay for.

Also, don't say that they are not used in modern combat. Have you heard about the British guys (Company sized i think) who got caught in an ambush in Iraq, engaged the insurgents (i believe over a hundred, but i can't confirm) and then started running low on ammo? They all fixed their bayonets, and charged right at the bastards. Although they either killed or wounded a couple insurgents (again, not sure which) the bayonet charge scared the living shit out of the rest of them and caused them to run like hell.

[UKMERC 10]

Great, so because your sergeant said so, we modders must give up any historical mods in ArmA2. Nice.

I never said give up on any mods dont know where you got that from TBH. but theres a lot more issues to be sorted out with the game before they start adding Knifes/Bayonets to a MODERN COMBAT MILSIM. I have great respect for the modders of this community so please dont try belittling any comments i make that are my opinion.

@ darkhorse i never said that knifes/bayonets are never used in RL but in game tell me how many times it is needed that you require the use of a melee weapon of some sort. Ive played since ARMA1 and never needed it.

Its my opinion that if implemented it just takes developer resources away from fixing/changing more needed problems with this game.

[ltfransky-tpf- 0]

Are we still talking about this?

[ProfTournesol 956]

I have great respect for the modders of this community so please dont try belittling any comments i make that are my opinion.

If so, we shouldn't be narrowminded, but think in terms of "modding possibilities" more than "only realistic modern features".

[Fanatic72 181]

One video which will convince everyone we need knives. :D:D:D:yay:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDztrw_0N8M&hl=cs_CZ&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDztrw_0N8M&hl=cs_CZ&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

So stick around

[Pundaria 10]

One video which will convince everyone we need knives. :D:D:D:yay:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDztrw_0N8M&hl=cs_CZ&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDztrw_0N8M&hl=cs_CZ&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

So stick around

Sweet......

[Daniel 0]

but in game tell me how many times it is needed that you require the use of a melee weapon of some sort. Ive played since ARMA1 and never needed it.

Ah man, you missed out on the PUKF Bayonets then.

There was *nothing* as good as getting a bayonet kill. While obviously it wasn't wise to get into that sort of situation, sticking the AI while your buddies fought for their virtual lived was utterly awesome. Even the order to fix bayonets got the blood pumping.

Sniping the enemy with the latest 50cal or lighting the enemy up with spec op lasers just doesn't come close.

[dragon01 902]

It may be because I'm not playing on high difficulty, but today I got into a situation in which I would really appreciate a knife. I ejected from my plane and fell into water, which of course caused my MP5 to slip away about halfway to the shore. Then, I had to sneak into the enemy camp (it was a challenge in armory) and noticed an enemy soldier hiding in bushes and guarding the other part of a shore. He was using a scope and didn't noticed me somehow, so if I wanted, I could have walked right onto him. Unfortunately, pilots don't get sidearms. I can imagine it happening anytime when a pilot is shot down over the water and encouncers the enemy, which can happen. Of course, some way to dive to retrive the weapon could have prvented this, but I don't know if it wouldn't be even more difficult to implement than knifes (and if you get shot down over depper water, it wouldn't help anyway).

[HyperU2 11]

Chances are you'd lose it in the water anyway. lol