Polish President dead

[sudayev 27]

Everyone I met says that they are pleased of how the Russian autorities are handling this situation with very personal involement of Prime Minister V.Putin. There is free transportation, accomodation and care for anyone who lost their relatives. Entire rescue and investigation procedure is conducted with close cooperation with the Polish represantatives.

Now Russian TV stations continue to play a Polish movie directed by Andrzej Wajda portraying the Katyn Massacre, which was kinda hard to image to show this movie in Russia two years ago and debate about soviet guilt over it.

This will be a great step towards Polish-Russian reconcilation and I strongly hope that our new president will do his best in this matter.

Finally! I'd like to see good and healthy relationships and cooperation between two neighboring nations. It is always nice to start something new when all things from the past are finally settled.

[lecholas 2]

Indeed, it's astonishing how many politicians and reporters who only a few days or weeks ago defamed President Kaczynski, laughed at him and ridiculed him now 'discover' that he was an honest, open, warm and wise man (I've heard a few academic lectures given by the President, who was a profesor of law sciences, and, I dare to say, an expert in modern European history. He wasn't a good speaker but surely he had very wide-spread and valuable knowledge), maybe not so handsome and maybe not good at public speaches and PR, but a man who really believed in what he did and did it not for himself but for his country. And they laughed to death at his ideals, phisical appearence etc.

As one of the Polish politicians said: not every politician should now say how sorry he is. Some should remain silent.

And of course the media's hipocrisy doesn't concern only the President. The situation is similar with many other victims of the crash, as Kurtyka, Kochanowski, Walentynowicz and others.

I don't believe any conspiracy stories about the plane crash. I also agree that the Russians are very friendly and helpful and act just as they should. I do appreciate it. But on the other hand I think Richard Pipes was right in a yesterday's interview when he said that he's affraid that this crash will be a reason of deterioration of relations between Poland and Russia. As he said, it's not logic. It's psychology. And I've already saw examples of that (a local shopkeeper saying 'Mister, the Russians did it, it's obvious').

[sas troop 0]

Nothing is obvious without a proof.

I am also very surprised. RF government shown absolute willingness to help. However I will probably still be a rusophobe, there is great chance of thaw between Poland and Russia. We may finally stabilize our relationships.

I wonder what Russians will do about Katyń now.

[Baff1 0]

Nice to have you back Vilas.

Thanks to the Polish contingent for posting their opinions.

It is here I come first to learn about your country.

This Prime Minister was very popular in our country. We saw him as a natural ally within Europe.

He struck me as the first Polish leader in many years to have the balls to stand up for Poland internationally.

I watched the news footage of the Polish people in mourning, I can't help feeling that if the same tragedy had befallen my own national leaders the public response would be something more akin to undisguised celebration.

[echo1 0]

I have Polish friends who had less than flattering things to say of that President... I guess it depends on where you sit on the proverbial fence...

[kuIoodporny 45]

I have Polish friends who had less than flattering things to say of that President... I guess it depends on where you sit on the proverbial fence...

The polarity of opinions in Poland has several reasons, probably too many to describe them quickly.

In this case Poles outside our country care mainly about our international image which was relatively poor (not without thanks to our own media again), while those who are inside think more about internal issues and are divided mostly by ideologic or economic views.

In my opinion Lech Kaczynski's staff image suffered mostly from the "anti-duck" fashion spreaded over by politically oriented media (like "Gazeta Wyborcza", clearly supporting everything against his agenda. Worth noticing is the fact this is the most cited Polish[?] newspaper in international medias), ill-minded youngsters and lowlifes, idea that had very few rational reasons, mainly basing on Kaczynski's surname, his twin brother Jaroslaw leading Law and Justice party, physical appearance and the fact he was supported by religion oriented media and right wing "extremists" (like me )

Of course, nobody is perfect - I disagreed with killed president in economic views. However it seems that his brother's party (Law and Justice) claiming social economic program was more effective in freeing and fixing the market and lowering tremendous taxes and work costs than current so called "liberal" Civic Platform government, increasing Republic's public debt rapidly over last three years (not only due to financial crisis). I know this is hard to understand for outsiders, but this is particularly how it works.

P.S. Civic Platform had catchy "program" and slogan in 2007 elections: "We'll make second Ireland in Poland, so our workers will want to come back from the first" - ch_123, please ask Your Polish friends about who did they voted three years ago and if they will come back to Poland now.

Edited April 11, 2010 by zGuba

[vilas 473]

I have Polish friends who had less than flattering things to say of that President... I guess it depends on where you sit on the proverbial fence...

maybe they are from those who think that giving bribe is nothing bad, maybe they are among those who think that moral and worker rules are not needed

maybe they think that all that we had should be given for free to west companies ???

sory to say this, but some people who live there (specially those young yupiies ) do not deserve to be Poles

there are in my country people who not care about honesty, morality (like in all countries in the world there are people whose philosophy is 2pack, 50cent lyrics)

in all societies you will find guy who has money from "family connections given my good work, and those who not have money are suckers and losers, nevermind my father is director there, nevermind i cheated on exams, nevermind i don't care if banks are Polish or not "

well, for those who CARE if our property is in our hands it is important

for people for whom "keeping promises, personal honesty, sincerity, not having dirty deeds in past" is important

also in Poland still live a lot of sons/daughters of ex-communist represion secret police, now they are busines leaders, cause in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991... they had good credit in bank, good connections to make sales, concessions etc.

there are people who were lawyers in communist regime and they constructed law this way that only family after "corporation exam" could be judge for example and "immunity" even when criminal act commuted

i don't say that all opponents of Kaczynski are thieves, liars, ex-communist regime profiters

some are stupid, who not care about our history and independence thinking that our literature is boring and choosing sit-coms brainwash

some are knowing only propaganda

what picture of Kaczynski they could have from TV stations owned by big rich businessman (who are not patriots, but citizens of world whose home is where they have lower taxes ) ??

what ???

if Kaczynskis' party is hunting for bribers, fighting corruption, dark interests, want to clean Poland of corruption , bribes, ex-regime untouchable officers ???

such journalists were giving false view on President, so usual man watching their broadcasts had opposite to real opinion

if i had no some criminal cases (which i lead since 2005) i would not believe in view of Poland told by Kaczynskis

but i experience myself what they say, i could write here detailed stories of some cases in Courts which would made your eyes blow off from orbits

believe me, when you drown deeper in law, you would see what were ideas of Kaczynski and why his opponents hated him so much

people who have dirt behind fingers always hate guys who told to show clean hands

Kaczynski and PiS party are those who seek for "truth" no matter how it hurts , of course they are not angels, yes, but ...

but other parties only shown bribe scandals , contacts with gangsters etc.

Transparency International shown Poland among most corrupted countries , not only Transparency Int., other world organizations shown closing to third world by rich vs. poor divide and etc.

Polish politics is very specific

we have 50% voting, rest not see anyone who is trustworthy

among votings there are some parties , most funny that party calling themselves liberals and party calling themselves left-wing have the same program

party of Kaczynski is from one side Christian, traditional but from other side economical left-wing (real opposition to those 2 above)

another party is party who "agree with anyone , but give us some jobs in Ministries"

i know it look weird if you are from west

"right-christian party is left wing, left-wing is liberal, other is corrupted and full of scandals, other do not have any program" - like Monty Python built

but this way it is

am i catholic ? no i am atheist

am i right-wing ? no i am left-wing

but i vote for them, why ?

cause only they not present in big bribes scandals which appear monthly in TV news since many many years, only them protect "Polish interest" (for example Polish local small business vs. tax free big foreign companies, as Poles we should support local market, local employment, not central in other country) , only they are for "good and clear law"

good law is when simple man understand it without paying large money for advocate and good law is not written the way you can interpreted this both sides (for example "you may or you may not do this " depending of today's judge mood)

Edited April 11, 2010 by vilas

[SWT_Janowich 10]

the world there are people whose philosophy is 2pack, 50cent lyrics)

Where is the problem? The song changes is even on the website of the vatikan

[kuIoodporny 45]

Where is the problem? The song changes is even on the website of the vatikan

I guess that vilas was rather talking about worldwide "motha hacka gangsta cult" ;)

[Baff1 0]

i know it look weird if you are from west

"right-christian party is left wing, left-wing is liberal, other is corrupted and full of scandals, other do not have any program" - like Monty Python built

but this way it is

Not as weird as you might think.

[vilas 473]

Where is the problem? The song changes is even on the website of the vatikan

problem is cult of criminals, not cult of honest people who fight evil

for me always better was Dirty Harry :)

and our literature had always "moral issues" (saying our i mean Polish, Russian)

read some Dostoyevsky, Bulhakov, Siekiewicz , Prus, you will spot difference

our literature says about moral rules, about moral choices "how to be good human"

2pack, 50cents are saying "fuck all, money is my god, kill cop, deal drugs"

from my point of view such shit should be banned cause it gives wrong moral values to people,

allowing criminals, bandits, gang members to be in public is for me unthinkable

their place is in prison, not in media to shape young human character :(

young human should have "moral exemplars" to follow, to become honest, modest, sincere human being

[Barely-injured 0]

My condolences to the polish people and families of the victims.

I do hope that if anything that this tragedy might help to improve the relationship between Poland and Russia........

[sudayev 27]

there are people who were lawyers in communist regime and they constructed law this way that only family after "corporation exam" could be judge

Exactly. They created a "cast" just like in India so only people from within the lowyer circle were allowed to study thus making this job uber profitable and elitary!

The "Corporation exam" was a fiction. For example in county, for 80 candidates (many of them were excellent students with grade A diplomas) there were 5-10 children of lawyers.

Their fathers&mothers (all lawyers) were personas in the examing body, and they were also constructing the tests, so whats the problem to reveal the question to their kids :) So If you were a lawyers son or daughter you woudnt have worried about your knowledge because you knew that this job is "inherited" only.

Every year during the corporation exams all people within the cast were passing through the test with flying colors (99/100) + ONE or TWO people from outside the ring with best results, only to make this look 'normal'.

Exam fee costed like 500$ with no refund! My brother spent 3000$ trying to pass this cheated test, just like many other ambitious men who dreamed about working as a lawyer.

Someone said, this must be stopped! People from Kaczynski's party said that and president also supported this act and immediately signed it this bill after positive voting.

Socialists were mad and the unofficial lawyers cast was broken. Exam rules are much improved right now with annonimity and different scoring and all test are supervised by the Ministry of Justice. It takes a less much less money as well.

Our President was a Law Professor himslef and Pro socialist media ofter forget about his title. They mostly concentrated on his funny bloopers , on his love to his mother (which is a natural thing ), short height and nonsense like that. No, he wasnt a media person like his predecessor Mr Kwasniewski, he was rather a man of act than words.

President Kaczynski brought back a great tradition of military parades & troop review which was almost forgotten since the 1990s! After this I started to sympathize with him as I saw he's doing something to inject something positive in young Poles hearts. He was also a voice of conservatives in the (pro-socialist) European Parliament it didnt took long for them to recognize him as a strong player in this game. At least he did something and he will be remembered.

In Western World with its the secular humanist ideas and political correctness such conserative voice refering to nation traditions and christian heritage was priceless. He couldnt stand abortion and all this buzz with gays. He sported traditional, normal and healthy look of a typical family.

Now, guess why this hate is all about. Because a man stood up and said what he believed. In modern day traditions are subects of laugh. What matters in the Western WOrld is political correctness, hedonism, ultra tolerance and socialism as well. Just you wait till the muslim immigrants overrun your countries and dont even say a word cuz you might offend them!

Only people who say bad thing about our President are ex-commies and all post-red do gooders with the socialists. Because they built this corrupted empire only for their own kind. President Kaczynski wanted to smash this into pieces and make way for the young people.

[vilas 473]

don't say "socialists" about SLD, don't mess SLD with socialism and left-wing in economy

they only USE name to get votes, in fact their program is equal PO

difference between PO and SLD is "where they belonged in 1981", now they are almost programs-equal , bribery scandals equal, pro-criminal law equal and etc. equal

PIS is socialistic by economic rules :P don't mess "socialism in economy" with "ex-commie" , okay ?

"worker protection, family support, poor support" is PiS , not SLD

those whom you call "socialists" are in fact "liberals"

do not look at "names, patches" , look at deeds , programs, facts

Edited April 11, 2010 by vilas

[Przemek_kondor 13]

What this has to do with the topic?

[vilas 473]

it has much

Kaczynski was defaced, journalists lied about him, making him black P.R. and now our TV is full of hypocrisy

those who spat yesterday, now cry to show public tears, cause streets are full of people and candles

first they lied about facts, now they lie about their devotion

now we have one of biggest hypocrisy show in media , 10-04 Day of Tragedy, 11-04 Day of Hypocrisy

it is like beat, rob someone and next day pat shoulder saying "don't say about past my friend"

and politics has much to topic

after dead of some opposition leaders, now balance of forces is twisted and PO takes all

today i heard about nomination of one guy, they called him "not political, manager, specialist, expert, never connected with politics" well, in fact this guy was Unia Wolnosci member and ... director of one ministry some 6-8 years ago... "not connected, outside from politics independent expert" (or maybe old friend who now can get good job and power function )

this is "truth" version by ruling party, like "i was talking to that nurse" "we move back troops from A-stan and Iraq" and like other words and ... tears

we should judge deeds, not words and public relations marketing

Kaczynski fought for other Poland, as Poles we should continue

so it has much to do with this, saying about "forget yesterday, forget differences" is worst now

cause "w mętnej wodzie ryby łowić" (best fishing in dirty water)

put silencer on and act like nothing happens ? happens , will happen in next days with next nominations, with people loosing jobs in ministries etc. with "changing staff" etc. with closing cases of Rycho, Zbycho

soon probably we will see that last bribery scandal never happened, documents, secret recordings not happened, witness misjudged etc. like in other famous scandals shown in media , if not journalists ... we would have such vision of country, like PO/SLD wants "so beautiful organized country where only losers moan, where law is perfect, where there is no Olewniks ***"

we cannot allow Poland future to be shot by silencer of "we must love each other in those days"

when you "think about sorrow and pain" others think about "how to get position and function of director and how to change staff and close cases and search for documents in drover"

***

note for people outside PL

Olewnik is rich man, his son was kidnapped , murdered

case is very known, cause guy had money to make it "loud"

his son's death was very badly investigated, all was wrong, noone caught till... till it was shown that gangsters are covered by Police, officials, clerks, lawyers, prosecutors office etc.

when this case raised to very very big scandal and Police captured gangsters...

all of them "committed suicides"

noone of high ranked officials was pushed to justice

usual gangsters "committed suicide" and noone will testify against officers of Police, prosecutors, judges, officials in Ministry etc.

it is not first case when officials supported gangsters

it is not first case where "nothing can be done"

gangsters wrote letters as "i am afraid to be killed cause i know who ordered kidnapping"

if they were not "found dead" maybe some high ranked lawyers would now been in prisons, some officials from public life who blocked investigations etc.

Edited April 11, 2010 by vilas

[echo1 0]

our literature says about moral rules, about moral choices "how to be good human"

2pack, 50cents are saying "fuck all, money is my god, kill cop, deal drugs"

from my point of view such shit should be banned cause it gives wrong moral values to people,

I can listen to 50c all day long without feeling the urge to kill cops or deal drugs, and so can 99% of people.

If people identify with that sort of message, then it's already too late. Same with violent video games, films, porn whatever... You're either giving someone harmless fun, or you're preaching to the choir. No decent honest person ever played GTA and thought "Hey! I should kill someone!" People are a bit more sophisticated than that.

Criminal behavior happens for many reasons that are long and complicated. Long and complicated is hard to market to the masses, so politicians create nice little rally points for people to get all angsty and proactive, but ultimately accomplish nothing. People singing about killing cops is the symptom, not the problem. When governments spend time and money trying to save people from 'immoral' media, they're kinda like the doctor who gives painkillers to their patient for the headaches caused by the fact they have a brain tumor, if you get me.

Besides, all these folks tend to have all sorts of vested interests. Republicans protesting against that evil 'communist' health system? Surely that couldn't be to do with their financial backers being big insurance companies, right? Religious types? Sure they act like they are upholders of morality virtue, but really they want to have people live in fear of them like the good old days so that they can extort money and fuck little boys. Sometimes the good old days weren't really the good old days.

[vilas 473]

my own personal case is not such strong as Olewiniks

in 2005 to flat of my relative 2 man broke

burglars were noted by neighbors, they called police and me, cause i live on the same street

patrol caught guys inside

flat was empty, one of them was so scared that said to patrol that "this is second day, we back today to get rest of stuff"

second guy threatened policeman that "he has connections and well stated friends"

soon .. was free

prosecutor said nothing was stolen (it seems that my relative lived in empty walls ??? )

we tried so hard to punish burglars.. nothing could be done by local prosecutor's office

we appealed on prosecutors decision to court

guy laughed when i was testifying , judge removed him from court room

guy said "you will see"

next case...

next , other judge, very polite for guy

even more lady judge asked burglar "do you plan holidays in november, cause next term would be there"

and when we wanted ask question (me and relative) , she (judge) shouted at us and threatened 1000 PLN fee for "disturbing"

guy left court free laughing at us , now nothing "legal" can be done, cause all was dismissed, seems my relative have lived in empty walls room, without tv, video, money, dvd, pc, gold rings, nothing

--------------

second case:

i chase guy for debt, he owns me some big money

court protect debtor (he is son of colonel/general of ex-communist military secret service, his aunt is director in Head Prosecutor office)

when i notify court asking for help, that guy on and on changes his adress (in law it is required to send him letter from court) than court dismisses my application cause "letter not reached , recipient gone"

when i finally got him, court made weird decision

they ... empowered lawyer in my name not notifying me

lawyer not payed fee and my application was rejected

i not asked for lawyer, i carried all myself, i was not notified

can you imaging having lawyer against your will who not pays fee causing dismission of your application ?

well, i can

THIS IS POLAND< this is reason why Kaczynski cannot be forgotten

Kaczynski wanted Poland without such cases, without bribes and corrupted judges

Edited April 11, 2010 by vilas

[Yac 10]

Remember the topic title. :/

[rainbow 0]

Hey people, it is not a topic about politics. It's about the most important people in our country who died 2 days ago. Leave them alone and let them rest in peace.

I would like to thank people all around the world who firmly connect with us in such sad moments. Poland really appreciates it!

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Politics plus ESL equal wtf?

[Baff1 0]

I can listen to 50c all day long without feeling the urge to kill cops or deal drugs, and so can 99% of people. .

Also you can spot all the drug dealers in the nightclub when they suddenly start dancing when his record is played.

[Ingeneer 10]

My condolenses to all Poland citizens

Moje kondolencje dla wszystkich grazhdanm Polski respbliki

[SWT_Janowich 10]

@Baff

So how is such a drug dealer looking like,

if you can recognise them dancing?

[topas 1]

As topic starter I'd like to ask to put the politics, judgment and long half-page monologues on such issues aside.

There is a dedicated 'political discussion thread' to perform such.

Please, let us keep this clean and save some room for condolences; or any information related to the incident or most recent developments in the investigation.

Thank you in advance;

And my personal thanks to all expressing their sympathies, whatever their nationality and differences we [our nations] may have had in the past

[СпаÑибо, руÑÑкие друзьÑ!]

Edited April 12, 2010 by topas