Why is this game not more popular?

[D00mbuggy 10]

I think the reason why ArmA II is so unpopular is that it's too complex. Before you go calling the wahhmbulance what I mean by complex is by it's controls.

X- Crouch

Z- Prone

C- Get up

Which button don't you need? Obviously the freaking C button!

The controls are crap tastic. They really need to ditch the animation based system because everything is delayed as hell. I can see around millions of countless things they need to streamline and improve. When you switch to a gun, you lose full control of your character. When you use your binoculars, you lose complete control of your character. When you crouch, you lose control of your character. When you stand you lose control of your character. When you prone you lose control of your character. Think about it, are those animations really necessary to lose control of your character?

Now think of the Project Reality way. You switch to a gun, you pull it out of your pants GTA style. BUT there's no delay, you can run around while you're doing it, you can crouch, you can go prone. You crouch, you just crouch. There is no long out drawn, flashy animation that you cant move when you do it.

Does losing these animations really lose the immersion factor? Is it really worth the losing control of your character. Think of why Project Reality is so successful compared to ArmA II. The controls are basically your standard shooter controls from Doom 3 or Half Life 2. But they don't really harm the realism or believability as Project Reality represents.

[hund 0]

I think the main reason is that Arma/OFP requires an active effort from the player to get the best out of it. That an some patience. Both these things do not correspond very well to the casual gamer market, which seems to be the main market for the games industry today.

So it remains a niche game, but what a nice niche it is!

[meade95 0]

Another aspect of A2/AO is simply it doesn't have the right "feel" at all when inside buildings and to some degree within towns themselves (even outside of buildings).

1. Why is the feel (viewing) movement just off when entering buildings? It is nothing like the smoothness of say old R6/RS/RVS type games? Not trying to get in a debate here but there definitely is an awkwardness to being inside buildings.

2. The ability / need to have teammates clear structures "together". Entering buildings together, etc.

[kylania 567]

Which button don't you need? Obviously the freaking C button!

huh? :rolleyes:

[nodunit 397]

Another aspect of A2/AO is simply it doesn't have the right "feel" at all when inside buildings and to some degree within towns themselves (even outside of buildings).

1. Why is the feel (viewing) movement just off when entering buildings? It is nothing like the smoothness of say old R6/RS/RVS type games? Not trying to get in a debate here but there definitely is an awkwardness to being inside buildings.

It could be due to the fact that if you get your gun caught against a wall or something you get stuck although honestly I think that is more realistic, afterall you don't walk into a doorway sideways..

As for getting rid of the C button, no thank you, I've played Bf2 and CSS plenty to know that I can't hold my crouch button forever be it C or Ctrl.

Eventually becomes tiresome and with how crouching is far more helpful here, I'd rather have a mode set for it instead of holding down a button.

[meade95 0]

It could be due to the fact that if you get your gun caught against a wall or something you get stuck although honestly I think that is more realistic, afterall you don't walk into a doorway sideways..

As for getting rid of the C button, no thank you, I've played Bf2 and CSS plenty to know that I can't hold my crouch button forever be it C or Ctrl.

Eventually becomes tiresome and with how crouching is far more helpful here, I'd rather have a mode set for it instead of holding down a button.

No. I don't believe it is so much to do with your weapon. It is more the lack of SA, that one has when entering a building......Within A2/OA there is just a lack of smoothness (for lack of a better term) there a lack of natural SA (situational awareness of yourself) that is within A2/OA....

I know without question the old R6/RS/RVS all gave you a much better simulation of operating once inside buildings and upon entering buildings.

[GROM64 10]

About changing stances, if you set up:

"UP" -> X and

"Go prone" -> Z

You can manage with only 2 keys for all 3 stances:

If you stand, UP makes you crouch, Go prone makes you prone.

If you crouch, UP makes you stand, Go prone makes you prone.

If you prone, UP makes you crouch, Go prone makes you stand.

So now please be so kind and click the link in my signature and help me make that happen, or bury it.

[kylania 567]

"Up" making you "crouch" from a standing position makes absolutely no sense. Nor does going prone while prone making you stand. It's totally bizarre and has no basis in nature.

You basically have Up and Down, but Up and Down change what they mean depending on what pose you're in. That's ridiculous. If I'm couching and want to stand up, I go UP. However if I'm prone and want to stand I go DOWN? Confusing for the sake of not using one key... crazy.

[Zipper5 74]

X- Crouch

Z- Prone

C- Get up

Which button don't you need? Obviously the freaking C button!

How do you plan on standing upright from prone, then? You'd have to go from prone to crouch to standing, pressing the button twice instead of just once.

The controls are crap tastic. They really need to ditch the animation based system because everything is delayed as hell. I can see around millions of countless things they need to streamline and improve. When you switch to a gun, you lose full control of your character. When you use your binoculars, you lose complete control of your character. When you crouch, you lose control of your character. When you stand you lose control of your character. When you prone you lose control of your character. Think about it, are those animations really necessary to lose control of your character?

You can cancel most of those animations mid-animation in Arma 2. If you switch to your pistol but then want to use your rifle, by selecting your rifle again it interrupts the animation and goes back to your rifle. Same with launchers, binoculars, etc.

Now think of the Project Reality way. You switch to a gun, you pull it out of your pants GTA style. BUT there's no delay, you can run around while you're doing it, you can crouch, you can go prone. You crouch, you just crouch. There is no long out drawn, flashy animation that you cant move when you do it.

I don't know of many people who can pull out a Javelin or RPG7V while moving around. It's unrealistic to have a system like that, and it completely breaks immersion.

But they don't really harm the realism or believability as Project Reality represents.

Personally, Project Reality never stopped me from thinking I was still playing Battlefield 2. I didn't find it anywhere near as realistic overall as Arma 2 is, but that's just my opinion.

While I do 100% agree the animation system needs improvement still, your method is not the way I'd want it to be done. DR confirmed that for me. However, it is possible to make it better while maintaining a realistic look and using roughly the same system, as OFP managed to accomplish it.

[galzohar 31]

What I usually use in other games that allow it is a toggle prone key and a toggle crouch key. If I want to stand up I hit crouch twice but can still instantly go prone if needed. Then in Arma 2 if it was possible they could also make sprint make you get up as well and start sprinting (since sprint and forward seem to crawl at same speed anyway and sprint is supposed to be an emergency thing). That would be the best way I can think of for getting stances controllable with only 2 keybindings. Of course you can get a bit more control with 3 keybindings but an option for using only 2 should be there - I could really use a spare key to bind to other things (say, a toggle underbarrel GL key or an extra key for flashlight for weapons that have both a laser and a flashlight) since all keys around my movement keys are currently used for *something* important.

Anyway, that's probably not why the game isn't more popular...

[GROM64 10]

(...) I don't know of many people who can pull out a Javelin or RPG7V while moving around.

It's unrealistic to have a system like that, and it completely breaks immersion. (...)

IMO pulling out jav or rpg or any other weapon on the move is more realistic

than switching from driver to gunner (while still on the move) in a tank in an instant.

or

I shot an APC with a launcher it doesn't blow up, next second

there is a one man crew, out in the field, shooting at me and

i can't shoot back, because animation of putting empty launcher back on my shoulder and taking the rifle didn't finish playing.

Edited August 31, 2010 by GROM64

[celery 8]

How do you plan on standing upright from prone, then? You'd have to go from prone to crouch to standing, pressing the button twice instead of just once.

Just like in OFP: press prone while prone to stand up.

[Decerto 10]

All this talk about keyboard commands makes me want to fire up Black-Shark lol I need a better stick though :(

[WhoCares 0]

...

I shot an APC with a launcher it doesn't blow up, next second

there is a one man crew, out in the field, shooting at me and

i can't shoot back, because animation of putting empty launcher back on my shoulder and taking the rifle didn't finish playing.

You could consider yourself lucky that it was just a crewman shooting at you - in many other cases an angry APC or tank would have taken you under fire and that much faster ;)

A little procedure for the next time you try something like this:

1. Step out of cover
   
2. Fire with launcher
   
3. Step back behind cover
   
4. Reload/Switch weapon
   

[GROM64 10]

(...) A little procedure for the next time you try something like this: (...)

You clearly misunderstood what that post was about :rolleyes:

Edited September 1, 2010 by GROM64

[whisper 0]

And you clearly didn't understood the advice : don't switch weapons in the open. Do it in cover, you won't have this issue of being fired at by angry crewmen. If you don't have nearby cover when shooting, it's a planification fault, not a game engine fault.

Though for certain weapons, I agree that switching on the move should be possible. It's not the case with launchers, though, if you ask me

[GROM64 10]

I play AAS with 80-100 people not AI, you can plan .... sure.

When you play with real people, you have to improvise ... a lot, like in life.

And you think it should take couple of seconds in game to switch from empty launcher to a rifle

in life threatening situation? That's fine by me, but only if it takes over a dozen seconds to: change position inside vehicle, or get in or out of a tank or an apc.

I'm veteran of online FPS.

My scores/statistics are always above average.

If the game promotes team-play i'm team-player.

I'm sorry but i don't feel that i need to be lectured on online warfare tactics.

[Antonkr 10]

Because its not Call of Duty. :p

[Zipper5 74]

I too would consider myself an above-average MP player, largely thanks to the huge amount of time I spent in PvP tournaments and having good teachers (Celery, Infamous :p ). However, I don't find myself getting screwed over by the animations to take out a launcher, pistol or my binoculars.

I can't think of any other way to put it: you're doing it wrong.

[WhoCares 0]

I play AAS with 80-100 people not AI, you can plan .... sure.

When you play with real people, you have to improvise ... a lot, like in life.

...

Yepp, and improvisation is what get's you killed if it doesn't work out - and it doesn't matter whether you play SP, Coop or PvP or in real life.

If you feel like telling everybody that you are standing out in the open with your pants down, and that for a couple of seconds, without cover and no support from your team, then that's a decision you make.

If you get killed in the process I can't see the fault in the game mechanics.

And you think it should take couple of seconds in game to switch from empty launcher to a rifle

in life threatening situation? That's fine by me, but only if it takes over a dozen seconds to: change position inside vehicle, or get in or out of a tank or an apc....

Probably, if there were life-threatening situations in the game, you would feel more inclined to properly adapt to mechanics of this particular game instead of trying a "What works for A must work everywhere"-kind of playing style.

I'm veteran of online FPS.

My scores/statistics are always above average.

If the game promotes team-play i'm team-player.

I'm sorry but i don't feel that i need to be lectured on online warfare tactics...

At 37 I usually can't be impressed by great player stats anymore - some particularly smart play on the other hand might occasionally do... ;)

[GROM64 10]

At this point it's a a pissing contest and my comment would have to be rude....

and i really don't want to, so EOT.

[WhoCares 0]

At this point it's a a pissing contest and my comment would have to be rude....

and i really don't want to, so EOT.

Feel free to be rude via PM if it helps you, I won't tell anyone but Placebo ;)

The fundamental problem is that you play a FPS and I play a tactical simulation. In the latter I expect to die when I attack an APC out in the open. Be it by an auto-bailed crew, a gunner that does not bail just because the vehicle is imobilized, the infantry squad that will usually accompany an APC, other APCs, .......

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If you don't have nearby cover when shooting, it's a planification fault, not a game engine fault.

Though for certain weapons, I agree that switching on the move should be possible. It's not the case with launchers, though, if you ask me

I agree that switching to/from launcher on the move is bad. But there are game mechanic problems as well:

1) Too little natural cover to be found.

2) Unable to toss launcher (even unused if in panic mode).

3) Automatic switching to weapon when you go prone.

4) Inability to use launcher in prone.

5) Need to finish animation.

I'm not bad at adopting to what the game "forces" me to do (probably not a master either), but too many times I when I get killed I end up thinking "better and more natural game mechanics would have prevented that unnecessary kill". Means I have no reason to believe I'm doing something wrong from a realism point of view. But it still gets me killed.

I.e. I notice that I'm spotted. Time to abort my current action.

Time to switch weapons? Forget it.

Cover? Not nearby, best hope is hit the dirt.

Hitting the dirt, furiously trying to roll away.

Will do, as soon as the weapon switching is done.

I could have reached solid cover and my escape route from prone. But the game prevented me from doing so by this animation madness.

Maybe I should have done something different. But you can't wave off all the games problems with "you're doing it wrong".

[whisper 0]

I play AAS with 80-100 people not AI, you can plan .... sure.

When you play with real people, you have to improvise ... a lot, like in life.

Yeah, me too play on BCA, so what?

You're complaining about pissing contest when you're the one coming with this "I'm ûber leet" s**t ?

Sorry but yes, most of my armor engagements on BCA AAS are by popping out of cover or shooting from far enough away that the opponent won't know where the missile came from. It's really not that difficult.

(Not counting that most players there are of little threat usually apart from half a dozen good shooters there, who do rarely use tanks)

And no, I'm no uber leet player

@CG : Kind of argumentation I prefer to read, tbh

Well, in part, if you're caught in the open it's a bit of your own fault, even if, yes, gameplay mechanisms (or lack of) won't help you there, that's true.

1) Not sure if it's that unnatural seeing OA environment

2) That would sure help, I agree

3) True that

4) Are they usable prone? (I'm not realism specialist enough in this department)

5) True, but interrupting to go in what anim? :)

[galzohar 31]

When you look at it from the crew's perspective it does seem quite silly. So I drive around in the open, and some guy who was standing out in the open as well fired an RPG at me, so I hopped out of the vehicle and shot him before he even managed to pull out his rifle again. Doesn't make sense on any level. However you should blame the vehicle system on this problem, not the launcher system - Even if they let you quickly ditch the launcher it would still end up slower than the current ultra-fast disembarking.

Cover is too scarce in this game's islands. Takistan/Zargabad are much improved on that aspect compared to Chernarus and other A2 islands, but still have a long way to go to make realistic infantry combat out in the option a possibility. Most RL tactics rely on at least some kind of natural cover existing, and in most cases in Arma 2 it simply doesn't exist, and in the few places that do provide some cover, it's spread too thin and/or is present in a not very useful form (HUGE rock or very small stones). As a result AAS missions that aren't carefully designed (location-wise) can result in some extremely messed up gameplay.

Edited September 1, 2010 by galzohar