Actual real life cockpit bullet protection for helicopter pilots

[wasserkool 1]

I understand that due to engine limitation, the bullet protection for pilots in armoured cockpits are not rendered properly. For example, most of the larger calibre weapons can easily take out the pilot in the Mi 24 hind, KA52 or the Cobra...

I am wondering in real life, how much protection are there for pilots in these helos?

[HyperU2 11]

Large caliber would still penetrate most but fortunately in real life the people on the ground aren't quite the snipers that the AI is in this game.

[maturin 12]

It's not the engine that's at fault.

Just an hour ago I discovered that the windows of the Vodnik are completely impervious to silenced M4 rounds.

[randir14 10]

I messed around with this in the editor awhile ago. I had a helicopter hovering and was able to bring it down by shooting the pilot with a 9mm pistol, lol.

[Uglyboy 10]

I messed around with this in the editor awhile ago. I had a helicopter hovering and was able to bring it down by shooting the pilot with a 9mm pistol, lol.

Try doing the same with the helicopter flying at ~175 km/h and put an enemy chopper this time ;)

[metsapeikkoo 10]

Try doing the same with the helicopter flying at ~175 km/h and put an enemy chopper this time ;)

Still doable. And it still doesn't change the fact that helicopters are useless against.. Well, against everything expect buildings that don't shoot back.

Hell, mi24's cockpit glass is suppose to be able to take .50 cal round withouth breaking. But in arma, mi24 is rendered absolutely useless since you can take the "flying tank" down with your sidearm by killing the pilot.

[sick1 13]

Still doable. And it still doesn't change the fact that helicopters are useless against.. Well, against everything expect buildings that don't shoot back.

Hell, mi24's cockpit glass is suppose to be able to take .50 cal round withouth breaking. But in arma, mi24 is rendered absolutely useless since you can take the "flying tank" down with your sidearm by killing the pilot.

This is true, but you really don't get a real chance at shooting an enemy helo at this range at a few feet.

[icebreakr 3159]

I messed around with this in the editor awhile ago. I had a helicopter hovering and was able to bring it down by shooting the pilot with a 9mm pistol, lol.

Jack Bauer would be proud of you :)

[walker 0]

Hi all

Please use Search.

This has been investigated. On the Hind only the front glass plate is bullet resistant glass in reality. The curved dome including the sides of the navigater compartment is just plexiglass any pistol can and should be able to penetrate it.

I have tested the front armored glass plate of both the pilot and the navigator gunner of the Mi-24P Hind with pistols and other weapons extensively, it takes several clips of pistol ammunition from close range 10m to first shatter then penetrate the glass. AK74 takes one full clip to shatter then penetrate the glass. (At under 200m range)

The side plexiglass of the Mi-24 navigator compartment can be penetrated by a single pistol round and a kill shot achieved in 1~3 shots at short range 10m. The slightly stronger segmented side glass of the pilot compartment takes 1 full pistol clip plus additional rounds to achieve a kill though wounding from glass fragments occurs very quickly.

The Segmented glass of MI-8 Gives more protection than the plexiglass of the MI-24 but less than armored frontal glass.

The cobra gives results between that of the Hind and the Mi-8.

IMHO this sounds about right.

Sniper rifles of the larger calibre are anti material weapons designed not only to go through armored glass but through the sides of IFVs.

Bullet Resistant glass of the thickness and weight that can be carried in a helicopter does not stop rounds of a large calibre as used in anti material rifles.

Rounds of 7.62 same as in the AK47, MG 240 and many mid calibre sniper rifles, will go through a brick of block built house even with out being SLAP rounds, the SLAP rounds of that calibre have even more penetration.

Dependent on the actual round, distance from the target and length of barrel most rifles should be capable of penetrating the segmented side glass of an MI-24 at ~200m and after few rounds the front glass. The High velocity of the longer sniper rifle barrels add range and penetrating power even on light rounds. Larger calibre of 7.62 and above should be able to penetrate armored glass after a few shots.

SLAP rounds of the MG 240 were designed to penetrate body armor and light amor such as attack helicopter windows and light amored cars.

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 20, 2009 by walker

[maturin 12]

But in arma, mi24 is rendered absolutely useless since you can take the "flying tank" down with your sidearm by killing the pilot.

Err... no?

We must be losing in Afghanistan because our predator drones are utterly defenseless against meteorites and the Taliban just have to wait for them to be shot down.

[krycek 349]

OFP gunships were very usable in support missions but since Arma 1(and especially A2) BI made them "handicapped".

Although a human pilot could still provide decent fire support it's not the same situation in AI hands,this coupled with the fact that every crew in an armored vehicle received sniper training makes the AI flying part quite useless.So yes,bulletproof cockpits that work would be welcomed in A2 because I don't like one man army scenarios,you know the AI it's there for a reason,not just a placeholder.

[Beagle 684]

The term flying tanks was never officially used for the Hind...Mi24 were more of flying APCs. The myth of invulnerable helicopters is still around, but like tanks, a sigle loose bolt can make it malfunction.

Guys get it, MBTs, APCs, Battle helicopters...none of them are strong enoug to withstand seious fire...MBTs can and will be put out of action even by 20mm Autocannons, as will be any Helicopter if you put a dozend round assault rifle ammunition at the right place.

The Crew is always the weakest spot on heavy machinery.

Regarding armoured vehicles...I've seen more of them that had to be repaired at the manufacturer due to traffic accidents than to combat incidents.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Beagle

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Try doing the same with the helicopter flying at ~175 km/h and put an enemy chopper this time ;)

Actually, in this case you only need to hit the chopper if the pilot is AI at least. Hide between houses and chopper will take care of itself... :(

[code-red 0]

I have been in many many warfare and other scenario's of this game and ican tell you that i will hide myself as quick as possible when facing an attackshelo as an infantery soldier.

The only times i was able to shoot shoot the helo down was at landing or take off as a sniper.

These choppers are very leathal in the right hands.

On the other hand, i have seen many pilots wasting them in minutes.

But to say they are useless just tells me that you have not played the game enough or in the right way or you are just going of on a rant

[Lamerinio 10]

To all those who are saying that mi24 is piece of crap and can be shot down by using AK47 should get a person who speak russian and ask them to translate clips from youtube.

Just type mi24 in there and you can find alot of russian afgan veteran chopper pilot who saying that even under 50cal gun fire they lived and chopper worked. The only problem pilots had in mid 80s were stingers, but was sorted later on by introducing flare despencers. So no, pistol, AK47 nor 50 cal should penetrate mi24 crew cabin.

Oh, and AK47 dont shoot bricks trough, if they would shoot trough bricks, imagine what would PK could do to a brick? So stop pulling your stuff out of your arse plx.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Lamerinio

[Beagle 684]

To all those who are saying that mi24 is piece of crap and can be shot down by using AK47 should get a person who speak russian and ask them to translate clips from youtube.

Just type mi24 in there and you can find alot of russian afgan veteran chopper pilot who saying that even under 50cal gun fire they lived and chopper worked. The only problem pilots had in mid 80s were stingers, but was sorted later on by introducing flare despencers. So no, pistol, AK47 nor 50 cal should penetrate mi24 crew cabin.

Again...only the FRONT COCKPIT GLASS is reinforced layered Glass...not the Cockpit Bubble.

I've seen a Hind in one of our Border museeums...the Cockpit Bubbles are made from ordinary 8mm Plexiglass...

Some parts of choppers may withstand .50cal but that does not mean the whole machinery can. Otherwise a Stinger would be useless, because its expanding rods and shrapnells are mich weaker than a few .50cal projectiles.

AND

We know today that Apaches werer lost to small arms fire in Iraq.

Just work a while in the defense industry and you will beginn to know that a lot of this "superior tech" is nothing more than propaganda and advertising.

I have done welding on armourplates long enough to know thaT THERE IS NOTHING MAGIC to it...not materialwise nor productionwise.

[Lamerinio 10]

Again...only the FRONT COCKPIT GLASS is reinforced layered Glass...not the Cockpit Bubble.

I've seen a Hind in one of our Border museeums...the Cockpit Bubbles are made from ordinary 8mm Plexiglass...

Some parts of choppers may withstand .50cal but that does not mean the whole machinery can. Otherwise a Stinger would be useless, because its expanding rods and shrapnells are mich weaker than a few .50cal projectiles.

AND

We know today that Apaches werer lost to small arms fire in Iraq.

Just work a while in the defense industry and you will beginn to know that a lot of this "superior tech" is nothing more than propaganda and advertising.

I have done welding on armourplates long enough to know thaT THERE IS NOTHING MAGIC to it...not materialwise nor productionwise.

I wonder when was the last time youve worked in defence industry..was it 30 or so years ago? Because as far as I know, while you work in defence industry you aint allowed to tell what you are working on or with for at least 30 years.

[reconteam 19]

It is very annoying how a bunch of guys in noisy, cramped, T-72s without modern optical systems can spot my AH-1Z hovering a kilometer away to their side, and hit me and my gunner with a single burst of the roof mounted machine gun.

Technically the AH-64 and AH-1Z are supposed to be fully resistant to rifle caliber fire and in some areas are designed to survive hits from heavy machine gun or light autocannon fire. Yet in reality, a single very (un)lucky shot (golden BB) can hit a small but important mechanical part and force a chopper down. The same is true for the Mi-24 despite it's reputation as a flying tank.

Such is the nature of helicopters, they are complicated machines with many fragile components to protect. Yet in ArmA it seems like the choppers are vulnerable, and every enemy seems to be a marksman when firing at your helicopter.

[maturin 12]

Oh, and AK47 dont shoot bricks trough, if they would shoot trough bricks, imagine what would PK could do to a brick? So stop pulling your stuff out of your arse plx.

Haven't you seen any of the threads and videos about this around here? A pistol round will break a cinderblock in half. no problem.

Any assault rifle will penetrate concrete and brick. Heaven knows where the rounds go afterwards, but you need a really thick hunk of masonry to be totally safe.

And I think everyone is being a little overexcited about this. I never get shot down by small arms. Damage and beeping? Cockpit hits? Yes. But unless I'm hovering and being raked, I almost never get killed, much less have my chopper shot down.

The exception was one deranged session of Dogs of War where some BRDMs were firing magic engine-disabling bullets from two kilometers away. There are some relative survivability issues still around.

Edited November 23, 2009 by maturin

[walker 0]

Hi all

How many more times will we have to correct these know nothings?

The information here would never be classified because all sides have access to the weapons, classifying such intel is an exercise in futility and a waste of money and time.

Unclassified US Marine Corps tests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKhMOfaYwvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w22M1DAQ59I

Single course Brick walls will not stop 7.62 bullets! No if buts or maybes they do not stop them. In fact 7.62 will go through both walls of a house.

In particular to refute the AK47 wont go through brick myth; see from 3.07 onwards.

I do not know how many more times we will have refute this crap; next myth up will be the AKs are inaccurate crap. Where we will have to explain for what will probably be 1000th time that Russians use the AK74 and AK107 not the old AK47. They also fail to understand the AK47 is designed to be used as an SMG not as a rifle. You fire it full auto and walk the rounds on to the target.

As has been pointed out a number of times that only the frontal glass plate of the HIND is armored, the dome is just plexiglass. While a pistol round at 10m would penetrate the 8mm plexiglass the chance of achieving this other when the aircraft is static at 10m distance or less is virtually zero. The armored glass of the HIND is designed to protect the crew from the front where the danger is. Later HINDs have had segmented armored glass replace some of the plexiglass domes; though this was to do with the fragmentation affect of rounds like the stinger, not for Mr Mujahideen firing his pistol into the cockpit from a mile across the valley as they passed at 150 mph plus.

The affects of bullets on the HIND types shown in the ArmA simulation are IMHO correct.

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 23, 2009 by walker

[no use for a name 0]

Oh, and AK47 dont shoot bricks trough, if they would shoot trough bricks, imagine what would PK could do to a brick? So stop pulling your stuff out of your arse plx.

do you even know what YOU'RE talking about? There's more than enough videos out there that prove you're 100% wrong

[Inkompetent 0]

PKs and AK-47s eats bricks for breakfast. Even the solid clay ones instead of those flimsy, brittle cinderblocks. Period.

It doesn't take very many rounds to break up a fist-sized hole in a double-layer clay-brick wall with a PK or M240 machine gun, when firing at shorter (short enough to be able to put the rounds at the same spot) ranges.

Then of course the AK-47's rounds loses energy quite fast, so you probably aren't punching through the brick walls at 500m, but at 150-200m I'd be scared shitless against one, even if behind a wall.

Also, thanks to those that actually have a clue about helicopter canopies and resilience and war mahinery, and can inform those still under the illusion of epic war tales and war material manufacturer commercials. :P

[Beagle 684]

I wonder when was the last time youve worked in defence industry..was it 30 or so years ago? Because as far as I know, while you work in defence industry you aint allowed to tell what you are working on or with for at least 30 years.

Actually I still do, and you may notice that I told nothing of any value. But I can tell you what a lot of people know...the material APCs and the like are made from are the same as you would use for Aircraft structural parts, for example heat treated Aluminium EN AW-7020...just that our sheets are much thicker.

[walker 0]

Hi all

While the Titanium Bathtub that the Hind Pilot and navigator gunner sit in resist AA fragmentation and even 37mm AA cannon rounds from the likes of stinger and standard AA guns. The circular Armored glass plate in the front of the pilot and navigator/gunner is no where near as strong. The 8mm plexiglass dome of the Hind types shown in ArmA is considerably softer.

An Anti material rifle which is designed to pierce an IFV and kill the driver, gunner or commander and destroy its electrical systems should also be capable of piercing the circular Armored glass plate in the front of the pilot and navigator/gunner of the helicopter types so far shown in ArmA.

The same is true of any attack helicopter Cobra and Apache included.

The defense of these areas of any helicopter from small arms fire is that they are on top of the helicopter and are a small fast moving normally distant target.

Kind Regards walker

[Lamerinio 10]

do you even know what YOU'RE talking about? There's more than enough videos out there that prove you're 100% wrong

I know that if AK would shoot trough a brick then there would be no buildings left in war zones. You wouldnt need artillery or tanks to level buildings, you would just need 50 men with AK shooting building. And regarding videos that proves me wrong its exactly opposite, there are tonns of videos showing that its not going trough brick wall.

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

Actually I still do, and you may notice that I told nothing of any value. But I can tell you what a lot of people know...the material APCs and the like are made from are the same as you would use for Aircraft structural parts, for example heat treated Aluminium EN AW-7020...just that our sheets are much thicker.

As far as I see you just want to show off yourself as some kind of an expert backing up your claims that you work for a defense industry.

Back on topic, I still don't see real flight models implemented into game, but I am not surprised. To me this game is a tactical or strategic simulation not flight simulator, however it would be nice to have choppers that are more closer to real models.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Lamerinio