Lack of documentation a major problem

[Alex72 1]

For the beginners check Mr.Murray's Deluxe Editing Guide. I did and i learned heeps. He is releasing an ARMA2 version, but i dont know when. However the first one (ArmA1) is working perfectly fine only leaving out the modules and some other new stuff. But to get going its perfect. Even all the way to very complex stuff.

You have that plus all the other things people suggested as well as this forum, armaholics forum and OFPECS etc where you can ask when you get stuck. :)

Alex

[galzohar 31]

The problem isn't that there is no documentation, but the documentation is far from complete. Maybe functions don't explain all the parameters. Many don't explain about possible locality issues. Some don't even exist at all (I wish I'd remember which command it was that someone told me to use and didn't show in the biki). And in the end, if you want to find a command that does something, you will never find it unless you guess its name or the name of a similar command and luckily run into it. Also quite alot of it is not updated for Arma 2, which means that while most of the time it'll work, you never know if it will until you find out by trial and error.

[NeoArmageddon 957]

nd in the end, if you want to find a command that does something, you will never find it unless you guess its name or the name of a similar command and luckily run into it.

Thats not correct. As already mentioned, there are lists in the biki where all scripting commands aviable are sorted by functionality (just search for "scripting commands by fuctionality"^^). Maybe you are looking for a command to get the speed of a unit... you go to "Object Information" and read the 20 commands listed there. If you see the command "speed" it will be self explaining. Nearly the same for every other commands... i have never had any problems with finding a command for a task.

[galzohar 31]

The whole search is messed up too, seraching "scripting commands by functionality" in the wiki brings 0 results. Doing the same with google (site:community.bistuido.com scripting commands by functionality) only gives VBS2 results. I've also searched for other things before and the only way I could find them is after I guessed at least part of the command correctly.

Anyway the horrible search capabilities are the least of the problems. The main problem is the straight out missing information.

[NeMeSiS 11]

i have never had any problems with finding a command for a task.

I did, and i more or less know all the commands that are relevant for what i usually do, yes i still and up scrolling through this list which is also way too hard to find, if you dont know that this exists you will never find it unless someone points you to it or you somehow get lost in the category pages which noone ever uses.

Also the search function is horrible, even when searching for exact phrases the results are regularly crap, and when you can only vaguely remember a command you will just have to look through the above list anyway and hope you see it.

What was the name for the command that returned a units nearest know enemy unit? Nearestenemy? Nearesttarget? It must be something like that since 'neartargets' is a command im sure of and does something similiar, but on that commands page there are no links to other commands..

Hell my whole zombiemod was built around that command and i still needed to ctrl+f the commandlist for 'enemy' just to find out that it was 'findnearestenemy' i was looking for. Which isnt exactly user friendly, but if i hadnt read through the whole list a couple of years ago and specifically remembered this command i never would have known of its existence in the first place.

EDIT: Seriously, the BIKI is great but its definately not a place for beginners. There is just no real start for them except the 'basic editor functions' page. (Which is pretty good, but not if you want/have to script)

Edited August 25, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[pj[cz] 2]

Well everyone is lost in the beginning but I suggest if you dont know about commands, just take the comref and literally bash it into your skull, sleep on it, eat it or whatever floats your boat. And whenever you need a command just try to remember some of the descriptions, do a small search and voila... This worked ok for me back in flashpoint days, and as far as the commands go almost nothing has changed and if it changed there is ussually an "obsolete" mark with description of the new fancier way. Back in flaspoint days there was a site in my native (czech) language with simple editing tuts (not nearly as fancy as mr. Murray have created), which i just flew through and then never looked back...

[BeerHunter 0]

Don't tell ME we dont need some decent documentation!!

According to the OFFICIAL BIS manual (High Command):

"The Interact option.....You may use it to load or unload infantry from vehicles"

but I've just spent over an hour searching and trying everything to accomplish this simple little task..to no avail.

The damn tutorial they give you to play isn;t much help because if you screw up there's NO tips as to what you did wrong and it won't advance until you complete some task. Virtually useless IMO.

My god , why couldn't they detail some of these apparent simple little tasks at least. Not asking for a scripting manual , just something that allows you to at least play the game to it's potential. :confused: :mad:

[HG_Havok 10]

Excellent thread Beerhunter, and I agree 100%. I wonder how many folks have already turned this game into a coaster because of the frustrating lack of info. And I wonder too how many will finally say screw this when the new games coming out get released like OFP, and MW2. It's too bad a company has the short sightedness to release a great game and leave the customer to figure it all out.

Add to the bitch the lack of server documention too.

[galzohar 31]

I've already talked to a lot of people who said "screw this, I'm just waiting for game X / going to play game Y. Sure they suck but at least I can actually play them".

[kozzy420 21]

I cant agree with you. I made missions and scripts since OFP and i never got a dokumentation problem.

There are great guides from people like murray out there and those guys get the informations for there guide mostly from BIS.

Have you ever had a look to this:

There is a dokumentation of every command and function ArmA has... most with example or tips of usage. The editor (and all tools) is explained there too.

AND you can find template missions in the standard arma installation. Just open, read and reproduce.

Cosign this post 100%.

You will not learn how to be a master of editors or modding over night. It takes some patience, knowledge of past editors,scripting,programming,etc..

There are tons of user made missions out already, people learned some how without a big huge manual that is just for the editor. They do research, find info and practise.

Good luck with you getting better with the editor for ARMA2 bud, I hope you learn it, but as with anything... expect a few bumps in the road, and dont throw the game away or curse it to hell because you have an error while making your missions.

Edited August 27, 2009 by kozzy420

[enigmatics 10]

I've already talked to a lot of people who said "screw this, I'm just waiting for game X / going to play game Y. Sure they suck but at least I can actually play them".

Excellent thread Beerhunter, and I agree 100%. I wonder how many folks have already turned this game into a coaster because of the frustrating lack of info.

I played the game intensely for a couple weeks and after trying to create a mission more advanced than placing a a bunch of guys around on way points I ended up shelving it. I check the forums every now and then to see if there's a producers note or a 3rd party guide to hold my hand going into the shallow end.

All I need to continue playing is a basic introduction to advanced mission editing. Show me how the basic scripting language syntax works and why, along with a few examples/tutorials to get my brain flowing in the right direction. Then I should be able to figure out all those advanced commands. As of right now all I can find is "Use X code in your mission to do this." Well, the code is great, but I have no clue where to put it and WHY that code does what it does. Give me the rhyme and reason and all should be good. Until then the game is pretty worthless.

Edited August 27, 2009 by enigmatics

[Defunkt 431]

All I need to continue playing is a basic introduction to advanced mission editing. ...or a 3rd party guide to hold my hand going into the shallow end.

What the bloody hell is THIS then (mentioned by name in the OP)?

There are a vast number of resources already listed in this thread. If you still can't work it out with those then I'm sorry to say it reflects more on you than BIS or their game. The proof of that is in the many complex and successful missions being released by others.

God I'm so sick of listening to the whiners around here who moan constantly about everything that wasn't included in the game and wasn't spoon-fed to them thereafter.

[enigmatics 10]

wasn't spoon-fed to them thereafter.

That's what I'm paying for. DCS, LOMAC, FSX10, all come with advanced manuals. All I'm asking for is something basic and UP TO DATE. If I had known that the game didn't come with a manual explaining integral parts of the game I wouldn't have purchased it. I guess it was a bit presumptuous of me to assume something as basic as that.. and we all know what assuming gets ya.

Edited August 27, 2009 by enigmatics

[BeerHunter 0]

As I said , I'm NOT looking for a detailed "How to Build a Module". I can figure that out easily.

What I want to know is , for example , when you want to place a Command Module on the map , what are all those selections you have and what do they do?

If I want to select a squad and load them into a vehicle , exactly how do I do it in Command Mode (which the pamphlet says you can do)? The context menu only seems to have a Move To option after selecting a group.

I don't know and without a specific "how to"' I can only guess all evening what the programmers were thinking procedurally , if I were that patient.

Yes you can easily make up something similar to ArmA1 (drop a squad in here , some AI enemies here , triggers , way points , throw in some scripting etc.) using the editor but haven't run across anything yet that incorporates any of the more advanced features of ArmA2 (ie Command , Artillery etc. modules).

And that's what the documentation needs to address.

[galzohar 31]

Actually, for artillery all the commands are there, but you need to make a pretty big puzzle of them if you want something that uses artillery without the secops module (and secops module is bugged as !@#$).

[Fenrir 10]

All it would take really is for them to create a user editor manuel, that could be kind of like strategy guides for other games that you can buy in stores. Those things can get pretty detailed :)

They could include details, explainations, examples and how to tweak the modules. They could have scripts in. How to make basic, average and advanced missions. The list of stuff they could put in is endless, and i for one wouldnt mind paying a bit of extra money for it :)

Those guides tend to only go from £5 - £15, depending on game, purpose, makers etc. Id say thats worth it if it means you can expand your game without any limits :rolleyes:

[NeoArmageddon 957]

Those guides tend to only go from £5 - £15, depending on game, purpose, makers etc. Id say thats worth it if it means you can expand your game without any limits :rolleyes:

Mr.Murrays Guide (that was already mentioned above) can be bought via Amazon as printed version. It was like a editor strategieguide for arma1. He is currently working on a ArmA2 version. Maxbe it will be aviable via amazon too (but i dont know exactly). Than you have your guide for ~10 euro.

And remember that the most guides are not aviable at game release, they need some time too (maybe compare to the wow wotlk guide).

[BeerHunter 0]

Comment removed by author

After due consideration felt that if anyone wanted to know what I found out they can search the other forum instead of me dredging it up in here.

Edited September 7, 2009 by BeerHunter

[Inkompetent 0]

I can agree in a way that more documentation is needed. We got Mr. Murray's ArmA Editing Guide, so that covers the 'basics' part. However the biki needs more documentation. Both modules, and examples of how to use certain commands. Some of the stuff we know or can figure out. Some of it I think only BIS knows.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I would like a guide like the NeverWinter Nights editor guide. Softbound book that would show a command, show a practical use for it, a picture of it in use.

If I wanted to program a script by hand, I would have become a programmer. Right now, it's too much like work.

[shataan 1]

Ya know, I`d just be happy if.... IF the freaking tutorial missions just worked. I have never been able to get my squad buddy to pick up the gunner when I send him over there in the HV.

Here we got a game with no docs for how to play it, and a small tutorial system, that sometimes if you are lucky.... it works. This of course bleeds over into the sp campaigne.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Ya know, I`d just be happy if.... IF the freaking tutorial missions just worked. I have never been able to get my squad buddy to pick up the gunner when I send him over there in the HV.

Here we got a game with no docs for how to play it, and a small tutorial system, that sometimes if you are lucky.... it works. This of course bleeds over into the sp campaigne.

heh, I went and re-read my arma1 manual.

[USSRsniper 0]

Luhgnut;1432453']

If I wanted to program a script by hand' date=' I would have become a programmer. Right now, it's too much like work.[/quote']

Not only you need some programming knowledge, you need some math knowledge too.. You could also learn scripting by trial and error, but it will take some time. Also don't try to memorize all the commands, that why comref exists, so when you are scripting you can quickly look up the stuff you need.

Edited December 14, 2009 by USSRsniper

[zoog 18]

That's what I'm paying for. DCS, LOMAC, FSX10, all come with advanced manuals.

Yeah, that's true. The DCS simulation comes with a 534 page flight manual, a 162 page interface and editor manual, a 56 page quick start manual and 10+ online tutorial videos 10 ~ 15 minutes each.

Sure, DCS is a simulation, and I don't expect Bohemia to go this far, but some more information than the current "manual" would be nice. Not for editing per se, but just how to play the game and using some commands in-game.

Edited December 14, 2009 by zoog

[CarlGustaffa 4]

56 page quick start manual? Holy cow! :D

But it has. It has links. One I especially find useful is the link to: http://community.bistudio.com

It also links to this forum, from where you can find tons and tons of useful information. And if you don't find it, you can ask.

Yes, I agree that the manual alone isn't very suited for learning how to make missions or script. But making such a manual would have delayed the game. "We're delaying the game six months to make a good editing manual" wouldn't have been taken lightly here :D I don't think BIS crew size can compare to that of MSFS.

Keep in mind that i.e. classlists and other reference material started to appear right from the devs immediately after release. How much have you seen from the makers of OFDR which is a similar game and similar editor? Also note that new commands are being added even now. Expect to see some new ones if you're not into the beta versions.

The only problem I really have isn't about the manual, but the Biki itself, from a newbie point of view. When you lookup commands, it is expected of you to know how to read it. I.e. there are command examples that could have worked in the editor, but don't because the syntax example is ment to be used in a script (_underscore variables i.e.). The two language syntaxes (old SQS and new SQF) doesn't help either, and was last time I checked, also a problem in Mr. Murrays guide. There are stuff (especially ancient stuff) that doesn't seem to work "as you'd think", and I still fall for this one. Examples:

1) Let's make a convoy, that's gonna be easy, right?

2) Helicopter, pickups, deliveries, ejections and the like. Nothing but problems.

3) Actions. Most don't do anything like you'd expect them to. AI is a huge problem here.

4) Moves. Nice, that worked. Let's try this instead. Nope that didn't work because it needs another activation method or can't be broken out of.

5) And all that before he discovers the ugly truth about multiplayer and locality issues :)

There is a lot of frustration while trying to learn this stuff. Having done this stuff for a while, trust me, I'm still having my "issues". Some day, I'll probably get a new t-shirt with long arms, very long arms ;)